The French Rafale Fighter Aircraft

[zeven]

When I questioned the author's experience, it largely revolved around exposure to peer aircraft of the Rafale, like late model Gripens, the Typhoon, F/A-18E/F SHornets or even the F-22. If the author left the RAF in 1993, there has since been (from my perspective at least) at shift in doctrine and equipment towards dominating situational awareness. With that, the way a current advanced fighter cockpit would function and present information to the pilot would likely be completely different from what the author would have experienced in the past. It would not be at all surprising that he would be very impressed. As mentioned, it would be quite interesting to hear get the author's thoughts after he has also been one of the latest Typhoons and F/A-18E...

-Cheers

I agree with 100 per cent.

 

[Vivendi]

When I questioned the author's experience, it largely revolved around exposure to peer aircraft of the Rafale, like late model Gripens, the Typhoon, F/A-18E/F SHornets or even the F-22. If the author left the RAF in 1993, there has since been (from my perspective at least) at shift in doctrine and equipment towards dominating situational awareness. With that, the way a current advanced fighter cockpit would function and present information to the pilot would likely be completely different from what the author would have experienced in the past. It would not be at all surprising that he would be very impressed. As mentioned, it would be quite interesting to hear get the author's thoughts after he has also been one of the latest Typhoons and F/A-18E...

-Cheers

Among the three NFA candidates, the Rafale was the aircraft which demonstrated the best effectiveness and suitability in the accomplshment of all types of Air-to-Air missions, Recce and Strike missions. In addition, the Rafale made the best impression to the pilots.

The strong points of the Rafale were the quality of its sensors such as the PESA Radar, the Frontal Optronics, and the EW suite SPECTRA. The good data fusion of all its sensors allowed to provide to the pilot a very good Situational Awareness. A new concept to display all mission data has been implemented. The Recce Pod demonstrated also outstanding performances. The actual weak point of the Rafale was the lack of Helmet Mounted Sight System. The Rafale has been rated Satisfactory in the accomplishment of all types of Air-to-Air, Recce and Strike missions with some enhancing characteristics in several domains. The Rafale obtained the 1st rank in the evaluation of effectiveness.
...
Among the three NFA candidates, Rafale was the aircraft with the best effectiveness and suitability of a typical Air Policing mission. It also demonstrated better capabilities than the F/A-18C/D equipped with OFP-19C(S) and in addition to the accomplishment of Air Policing tasks it made the best impression on the pilots.
......
Among the three NFA candidates, Rafale was the aircraft with the best effectiveness and suitability of typical Defensive Counter Air missions. It also demonstrated better capabilities than the F/A-18C/D equipped with OFP-19C(S) and in addition to the accomplishment of Air Policing tasks it made the best impression on the pilots.
.....
Among the three NFA candidates, Rafale was the aircraft with the best effectiveness and suitability for the accomplishment of a typical OCA/AI/DA (Escort) mission. The Rafale also demonstrated better capabilities than the F/A-18C/D equipped with OFP-19C(S) and in addition to the accomplishment of Air Policing tasks it made the best impression on the pilots.
....
In the Recce domain, the Rafale has been assessed with the best effectiveness.
......
In the Strike domain, the Rafale has been assessed with the best effectiveness.

http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

Of course other air forces have other requirements however, the above should dispel quite a large number of myths about the Rafale. Also worth mentioning that since the evaluation above was done in 2008, several improvements have been made, or are in the process of being made.

It's a pity that the SH was pulled from this competition.... Still, the Swiss Hornets is offered as a point of reference, and in 2008 they were extremely capable with OFP-19C(S) AIM-9X and state-of-the-art HMD.

 

[Todjaeger]

http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

Of course other air forces have other requirements however, the above should dispel quite a large number of myths about the Rafale. Also worth mentioning that since the evaluation above was done in 2008, several improvements have been made, or are in the process of being made.

It's a pity that the SH was pulled from this competition.... Still, the Swiss Hornets is offered as a point of reference, and in 2008 they were extremely capable with OFP-19C(S) AIM-9X and state-of-the-art HMD.

Unfortunately I cannot check the contents of the link. It opens to a pdf of which I can see the first page, but no more loads.

From the quoted comments though, one of the first things which came to mind was that the Rafale should out perform the F/A-18C/D in many mission roles. The F/A-18C/D completed production in 1999 IIRC while the first production Rafale entered service in 2000. Even with the potential for late production F/A-18C/D Hornets to have upgraded avionics, I would still expect that the newer Rafale would have a more advanced and integrated avionics package and display. Such a package should give the Rafale a mission performance edge vs. legacy Hornets in most circumstances. If it did not, I would be forced to question to competency of Dassault.

-Cheers

 

[Vivendi]

Unfortunately I cannot check the contents of the link. It opens to a pdf of which I can see the first page, but no more loads.

From the quoted comments though, one of the first things which came to mind was that the Rafale should out perform the F/A-18C/D in many mission roles. The F/A-18C/D completed production in 1999 IIRC while the first production Rafale entered service in 2000. Even with the potential for late production F/A-18C/D Hornets to have upgraded avionics, I would still expect that the newer Rafale would have a more advanced and integrated avionics package and display. Such a package should give the Rafale a mission performance edge vs. legacy Hornets in most circumstances. If it did not, I would be forced to question to competency of Dassault.

-Cheers

Well it did outperform the Hornet in all mission roles, even the Swiss Hornets that probably are the most well equipped and advanced Hornets out there.

In the Swiss eval the Typhoon is behind the Rafale in most respects and in some parameters even falls behind the Swiss Hornet.

I wonder why you would be forced to question the competency of Dassault; I assume you feel you are now forced to question the competency of Eurofighter?

The point is that both the Rafale and Eurofighter are still far behind their full potential. In my opinion this is not due to the lack of "competency" as you imply but rather lack of investements from the customers.

It is interesting to note that Eurofighter is actually behind the Rafale, in spite of having much larger customer base. That program has been messed up by the politicians to an unbelievingly high degree.

In the previous posting you said you would have liked to see an eval done by somebody exposed to Typhoon, SH and Gripen. You got 2 out of those 3 and still seem remarkably unimpressed; I guess you need to modify your statement to "somebody exposed to the SH or F-22..." since both Gripen and Typhoon are clearly not up to your standards.

PS
I found another link for you that may work better: http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/pdf/12332.pdf

Also a summary here: http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2012/02/switzerland-evaluation-report-quick.html

 

[gf0012-aust]

Settle down

we're not going to see these types of threads turn into the bitching fanboi battles that are so easily found elsewhere.

 

[jack412]

edit . . . . . . .

 

[Todjaeger]

I wonder why you would be forced to question the competency of Dassault; I assume you feel you are now forced to question the competency of Eurofighter?

The point is that both the Rafale and Eurofighter are still far behind their full potential. In my opinion this is not due to the lack of "competency" as you imply but rather lack of investements from the customers.

You apparently misunderstood my point, so I shall repeat it after rephrasing it.

I would expect the Rafale to out perform a Hornet, even a late model one, in a number of areas as the Rafale is a later design and potentially able to incorporate lessons learned with prior aircraft design generations.

Apparently according to the evaluation, the Rafale did indeed out perform the F/A-18C/D Hornet, which is what I would expect it to do.

If the Rafale had NOT out performed the Hornet in a number of areas, then I would be questioning Dassault's competency. Please note the CAPITALIZED, bolded and underlined word.

Also, the post of mine from over 2 years ago mentioning exposure to 'peer aircraft' was in reference to the comments made by a specific former RAF pilot who left the RAF nearly two decades ago. I would expect a pilot whose exposure to advanced jet fighters was from 15 years prior to be impressed with the capabilities in any new current fighter.

-Cheers

 

[ADMk2]

Well it did outperform the Hornet in all mission roles, even the Swiss Hornets that probably are the most well equipped and advanced Hornets out there.

In the Swiss eval the Typhoon is behind the Rafale in most respects and in some parameters even falls behind the Swiss Hornet.

I wonder why you would be forced to question the competency of Dassault; I assume you feel you are now forced to question the competency of Eurofighter?

The point is that both the Rafale and Eurofighter are still far behind their full potential. In my opinion this is not due to the lack of "competency" as you imply but rather lack of investements from the customers.

It is interesting to note that Eurofighter is actually behind the Rafale, in spite of having much larger customer base. That program has been messed up by the politicians to an unbelievingly high degree.

In the previous posting you said you would have liked to see an eval done by somebody exposed to Typhoon, SH and Gripen. You got 2 out of those 3 and still seem remarkably unimpressed; I guess you need to modify your statement to "somebody exposed to the SH or F-22..." since both Gripen and Typhoon are clearly not up to your standards.

PS
I found another link for you that may work better: http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/pdf/12332.pdf

Also a summary here: Rafale News: Switzerland, Evaluation report quick analysis

All mission roles that were assessed...

I can't speak for Tod, but I for one wish the Super Hornet Block II+ had participated in this flyoff and it's performance against the other types could be judged somewhat, based on the Swiss data. I suspect it would have performed rather well, given how well the "baseline" Hornet apparently does.

The C/D Hornet was clearly highly thought of by the Swiss even in the limited areas they actually covered. If air to ground operations were a role undertaken by the Swiss Airforce then it would hard to see any of these aircraft doing better overall than the Hornet in 2008 and a rather interesting suituation "may" have ensued where none of the "next generation aircraft" would likely have offered better overall perofrmance than the existing aircraft...

 

[Vivendi]

You apparently misunderstood my point, so I shall repeat it after rephrasing it.

I would expect the Rafale to out perform a Hornet, even a late model one, in a number of areas as the Rafale is a later design and potentially able to incorporate lessons learned with prior aircraft design generations.

Apparently according to the evaluation, the Rafale did indeed out perform the F/A-18C/D Hornet, which is what I would expect it to do.

If the Rafale had NOT out performed the Hornet in a number of areas, then I would be questioning Dassault's competency. Please note the CAPITALIZED, bolded and underlined word.

I did understand that the first time you said it, however perhaps you did not understand the point I was trying to make. It was not related to Rafale but Typhoon. I should perhaps expressed it a bit more clearly; if you go back and re-read you will probably see what I was pointing out:

The Typhoon did NOT outperform the Hornet in a number of areas. Please note the CAPITALIZED bolded and underlined word.

Does this mean that you question the Eurofighter consortium competence?

 

[Vivendi]

All mission roles that were assessed...

I can't speak for Tod, but I for one wish the Super Hornet Block II+ had participated in this flyoff and it's performance against the other types could be judged somewhat, based on the Swiss data. I suspect it would have performed rather well, given how well the "baseline" Hornet apparently does.

I would not call the Swiss Hornet a "baseline" Hornet, after the upgrades they did..

 

[ADMk2]

I would not call the Swiss Hornet a "baseline" Hornet, after the upgrades they did..

The upgrades they did are pretty much in-line with those performed by the rest of the International Hornet user group. There might be one or 2 things they did that some (like Spain and Malaysia) didn't do to their jets, but there are plenty of upgrades that have been performed on the F/A-18 series that Switzerland hasn't done.

In any case the "baseline" I was referring to was the baseline capability the Hornet provides in Swiss service and against which the contenders for the F-5 replacement were compared.

 

[jack412]

Vivendi, I did delete my earlier, more detailed post, but seeing you are continuing..
did you read the PDF ?
did you see that the hornet exceed the capability of the rafale in data, identification and subtask WVR combat ?
did you see that the eurofighter exceeded the capability of the rafale in some areas?
Your blanket statements aren't accurate.

Also the Swiss upgrade program is on the net, a lot was done after 2008

 

[yankee]

Rafale and Typhoon, pilots exchange.