Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[ngatimozart]

I was just pointing out the cognitive dissonance at work here. Miners complain that the RAN isn't around. Miners use all wharf space available. RAN at fault for not being around.
I think they use similar logic when it comes to mineral ownership, rights and royalties.
Although finding fault with many of the opinions expressed, I loved the documentary The Corporation for comparing the behaviour of corporations (who have most of the rights of an individual, but none of the social responsibilities of an individual) against a mental illness diagnostic criteria. The conclusion? Corporations are psychopaths!

To be frank, I'm in two minds as to the worth of the mining industry to the Australian economy. Great for WA, sucks if your economy is based on manufacturing, agriculture, services or anything else that isn't mining. Everything is great if you work in the mining industry and you can live like a cashed up bogan, meanwhile large areas of the Australian economy not devoted to extracting and exporting large amounts of ore to far flung places are withering. Cashed up mining interests pay a lot in tax, but businesses that are struggling due to the high dollar are paying less taxes (and employ a lot more people than the miners). How long before the Australian economy is as hollow as that of a Gulf state?
Just like politics where a long-term plan goes out to four years and a lifetime is eight years, there is no thought to sustaining a company further than the tenure of a CEO and his/her next bonus via a 5% share price bump.

What happens when mineral reserves start being exhausted and we no longer value-add (Australian processing into metals, manufacturing, etc) and we didn't save any of the income (a sovereign wealth fund)? It wasn't that long ago we were saying Australia had black coal and iron ore reserves to last hundreds of years, now it is 100 and 70 years. Zinc, gold, manganese will last less than that. Diamonds is something like 15 years. Wow, better hope we either find more deposits or demand doesn't keep increasing.

<Sarcasm mode: On>
Accelerating extraction of everything and selling it all now is a great idea, because it is not as if demand is going to continue growing as China and India develop into post-industrial economies. And as we all learned in Economics 101 when supply diminishes as mineral resources are exhausted the prices of the resources goes down. So we should be selling everything off now as quickly as it can be extracted, shipped and value-added in China.
<Sarcasm mode: Off>

But this is a forum for discussing military matters that are paid for by mining and not the politics of mining, so that is that last I'll bleat on about the matter.

I was in Port Hedland, WA, three years ago visiting my sister and I know exactly what you mean by the wharf space. BHP were extending the wharves then to take six ore carriers up two from four. The whole operation is run around getting those carriers loaded and out. When I flew in there were about 12 ore carriers anchored offshore waiting to be loaded and I was told that is SOP. At that time it took 30 hours to load each ship and they are 300K tonne vessels. BHP for all intents and purposes owns the town and what they say goes. Methinks it will take a very long time for the iron ore in the Pibara to run out. The holes they have dug may be up to 5km across but in the context of the landscape they are nothing, not even a pinprick on a blue whales stern, and she's iron ore in every direction you care to look at. Thats what gives the interior its famous red colour. Kalgoorlie will be long out of opals and other gems before the iron ore runs out.

 

[icelord]

Gents, I vaguely remember that there were some hints given, from those who know, that Success was inoperable, possibly for good. Something to do with shaft alignments post the double-hulling.
Heard nothing since. Has anyone (possibly Icelord?) got the latest?

I do, but not too much i can say, cept that shes worth as much as the two LPAs tied up on base right now...

 

[ASSAIL]

I do, but not too much i can say, cept that shes worth as much as the two LPAs tied up on base right now...

I would love to see the contract between defence and ST Marine. The sad truth however is that, probably, the ship was too old to be converted, the cost benefit was marginal and the government, once again, tried to keep a capability on the cheap and Navy will cop the flak.
I hope I'm right with this assumption because if the conversion was asked for by navy I'll feel deeply ashamed by the outcome.

 

[icelord]

I would love to see the contract between defence and ST Marine. The sad truth however is that, probably, the ship was too old to be converted, the cost benefit was marginal and the government, once again, tried to keep a capability on the cheap and Navy will cop the flak.
I hope I'm right with this assumption because if the conversion was asked for by navy I'll feel deeply ashamed by the outcome.

AFAIK navy had it scheduled for replacement in 2015 as part of JP2048 orignally, once the LHDs were inbound, success would be replaced with Part D. With the requirement for double hulling becoming a bigger issue, and new budget priorities by new govt, it was shelved and the idea of double hulling success became apparent.
The contract become a farce when she sailed for singapore, then had to sail to WA to off load what fuel was left as the dock would not take what they had onboard, and the float back to singas on fumes...
The whole program has been a tradgedy, and a waste of money. this was tobruk all over again, instead of a new ship to replace an older one, we held on to what we had and upgraded. the fact the job was required to be done overseas should have started warning bells, and yet here we are

 

[Tasman]

AFAIK navy had it scheduled for replacement in 2015 as part of JP2048 orignally, once the LHDs were inbound, success would be replaced with Part D. With the requirement for double hulling becoming a bigger issue, and new budget priorities by new govt, it was shelved and the idea of double hulling success became apparent.
The contract become a farce when she sailed for singapore, then had to sail to WA to off load what fuel was left as the dock would not take what they had onboard, and the float back to singas on fumes...
The whole program has been a tradgedy, and a waste of money. this was tobruk all over again, instead of a new ship to replace an older one, we held on to what we had and upgraded. the fact the job was required to be done overseas should have started warning bells, and yet here we are

I could never understand why we would spend money double hulling an old ship, I felt the same about the fitting of 25mm Typhoons to the LPAs which obviously had a limited life ahead of them. At least with the Typhoons we will be able to re use them (perhaps on Choules for starters) but the cost of the fitout is down the drain.


Tas

 

[aussienscale]

AFAIK navy had it scheduled for replacement in 2015 as part of JP2048 orignally, once the LHDs were inbound, success would be replaced with Part D. With the requirement for double hulling becoming a bigger issue, and new budget priorities by new govt, it was shelved and the idea of double hulling success became apparent.
The contract become a farce when she sailed for singapore, then had to sail to WA to off load what fuel was left as the dock would not take what they had onboard, and the float back to singas on fumes...
The whole program has been a tradgedy, and a waste of money. this was tobruk all over again, instead of a new ship to replace an older one, we held on to what we had and upgraded. the fact the job was required to be done overseas should have started warning bells, and yet here we are

And the fact that it was not actually required by law to be done, but rather a decision by the Government to do it. Total waste of money better spent on starting the process of looking for her replacement

 

[ADMk2]

I could never understand why we would spend money double hulling an old ship, I felt the same about the fitting of 25mm Typhoons to the LPAs which obviously had a limited life ahead of them. At least with the Typhoons we will be able to re use them (perhaps on Choules for starters) but the cost of the fitout is down the drain.

Tas

Well at least it was only a minors project, so the install costs weren't very high (by defence standards) and they provided a capability whilst the vessels were operational...

 

[Tasman]

Well at least it was only a minors project, so the install costs weren't very high (by defence standards) and they provided a capability whilst the vessels were operational...

True and I would never hold back on fitting defensive systems if they were being operationally deployed...


Tas

 

[alexsa]

And the fact that it was not actually required by law to be done, but rather a decision by the Government to do it. Total waste of money better spent on starting the process of looking for her replacement

Naval vessel are certainly not required to comply but failure to do so could see ports closed to them as naval ships cannot automatically expect access. In many cases this is quite unlikely though.

 

[gf0012-aust]

with respect to the double hulling, military vessels are allowed access out of continued courtesy, but there is no obligation to let them in.

the exemptions are managed by the host nation and are not binding to expectations

 

[weegee]

So with the doubling hulling failure, does the RAN get compensation for that as the work was being done comercially in Singapore? Or if the work was done incorrectly why can't the work be corrected by the company that carried out the work?

 

[StoresBasher]

Gents, I vaguely remember that there were some hints given, from those who know, that Success was inoperable, possibly for good. Something to do with shaft alignments post the double-hulling.
Heard nothing since. Has anyone (possibly Icelord?) got the latest?

Speaking of Success, I went on board her for the first time since 1999, and she is looking very old and tired. Got a couple of mates who say they have no idea if/when they might sail again. Heard today from someone currently posted to her, that they have just discovered more problems that will delay her once again.

 

[MickB]

Could the S70s, stripped of their sensor package except surface search radar, operate as utility helecopters for OPV or have they come to the end of their service life.

If yes would a small, simple ASM like the Sea Skua be useful in providing additional strike options. Such a missile would be a serious threat to a FAC and provide a possable mission kill on larger vessels.

 

[John Newman]

Could the S70s, stripped of their sensor package except surface search radar, operate as utility helecopters for OPV or have they come to the end of their service life.

If yes would a small, simple ASM like the Sea Skua be useful in providing additional strike options. Such a missile would be a serious threat to a FAC and provide a possable mission kill on larger vessels.

Mick,

For a start the OPV's, if you have a look at the DCP, are not due to start entering service till somewhere between the early 2020's and the mid 2020's, so still a very long way off before the first OPV's join the fleet, probably be quiet a few years after that before the whole 20 are in service.

The Seahawks (and Blackhawks) should be out of service for quiet a while by then.

From memory, part of the "Team Romeo" bid for the Seahawk replacement, was an offer to take all the retired Blackhawks and Seahawks, 50 airframes, and remanufacture them for "non military" roles, police, para millitary, etc.

Provide some local employment, market them overseas and spilt the profits with the Government, don't know if that is still the case, but that was reported to be part of the bid.

So that brings us to when the OPV's enter service, if they do have a helicopter capability, will it be able to carry a helicopter as large as a Seahawk? Maybe not.

Probably, and this is only my opinion, if we are going to have 20 OPV's with helicopter capability, a later version of the DCP, may have a requirement for a "lighter" aircraft than a Seahawk size aircraft, if you are going to have 20 helicopter capable OPV's, it would make sense.

Maybe a follow on purchase of something like the AIR9000 Helicopter Training System aircraft, some contenders for that are the Bell 429 or the EC135.

Who know, still a long way off yet.

 

[Todjaeger]

Could the S70s, stripped of their sensor package except surface search radar, operate as utility helecopters for OPV or have they come to the end of their service life.

Honestly I would say not likely, not unless the RAN was willing to fund rebuilding/zero-timing them. The newest S-70B-2 Seahawk was delivered to the RAN in 1989, and given the workload they have had (including for the now-cancelled 11 SH-2G(A) Seasprite helis) the current RAN Seahawks are being flogged. This is why the Future Naval Helicopter programe became a Program of Urgency and got pushed forward a few years, instead of the planned 2016 replacement date as part of the ADF helicopter rationalization plan. The 16 Seahawks in inventory could not be kept in service until 2016 and meet required service outputs, maintenance, etc.

Once the OCV's start to enter service in the early to mid-2020's, the S-70B-2's IIRC will have been withdrawn from service, after having effectively reached their respective service lives. The airframes themselves could potentially be re-built into utility or MH-60S 'Sierra' Seahawks and then retained for service, but that would require funding to ensure air worthiness, nevermind whatever would be changed in terms of avionics.

If yes would a small, simple ASM like the Sea Skua be useful in providing additional strike options. Such a missile would be a serious threat to a FAC and provide a possable mission kill on larger vessels.

While the Sea Skua is a nice, short-ranged heli-bourne AShM, I do not see it entering RAN service at this point. AFAIK in order for it to be effective, the launching helicopter needs to have some form of radar illuminator to designate the targeted ship or smallcraft. Unless the RAN opts to also have Lynx helicopters enter service, the RAN would need to fund, develop, integrate and test the required systems to detect, designate and launch the Sea Skua from helicopters in RAN service. Given that the chosen Future Naval Helicopter is the MH-60R Seahawk, the RAN would become the only operator of a Seahawk/Sea Skua combination. Between that and the fact that the 'Romeo' will be able to operate a blast-frag version of the Hellfire II specifically for engaging FAC, adding the Sea Skua into the mix seems unlikely.

-Cheers

 

[aussienscale]

For those interested, an updated pic of Adelaide, she seems to be coming along nicely, not sure what the sched is, but would guess she is ahead on the build as was Canberra.

fotosdebarcos.com / fotosdebarcos.org :: Ver tema - 03 HMAS Adelaide

There are also a couple of Canberra if you go back on the menu, nothing too exciting though

 

[John Newman]

For those interested, an updated pic of Adelaide, she seems to be coming along nicely, not sure what the sched is, but would guess she is ahead on the build as was Canberra.

fotosdebarcos.com / fotosdebarcos.org :: Ver tema - 03 HMAS Adelaide

There are also a couple of Canberra if you go back on the menu, nothing too exciting though

Yes they do appear to moving quickly with Adelaide.

From memory when Canberra was launched, at the top of the slip was part of the keel section of Adelaide to move into place.

Now if only a 3rd was ordered (HMAS Australia?), maybe she could be done even faster and cheaper!!

Oh well, we can only dream!!

 

[Volkodav]

Yes they do appear to moving quickly with Adelaide.

From memory when Canberra was launched, at the top of the slip was part of the keel section of Adelaide to move into place.

Now if only a 3rd was ordered (HMAS Australia?), maybe she could be done even faster and cheaper!!

Oh well, we can only dream!!

Remember they still need to be transported to Melbourne for BAE to work their magic on them. Still time to blow the budget and schedule.

 

[SASWanabe]

Remember they still need to be transported to Melbourne for BAE to work their magic on them. Still time to blow the budget and schedule.

or they could just fall off of Blue marlin cause their so oversized.

 

[swerve]

While the Sea Skua is a nice, short-ranged heli-bourne AShM, I do not see it entering RAN service at this point. AFAIK in order for it to be effective, the launching helicopter needs to have some form of radar illuminator to designate the targeted ship or smallcraft. Unless the RAN opts to also have Lynx helicopters enter service, the RAN would need to fund, develop, integrate and test the required systems to detect, designate and launch the Sea Skua from helicopters in RAN service.

-Cheers

Sea Skua is to be replaced soon by a new British-French missile now under development, based on the Sea Skua airframe. I think it's incorporated the work done on the Sea Skua 2 privately funded project, so it's not started from scratch. It will have longer range (& much longer range than Hellfire), & won't need illumination of the target - IIR seeker with datalink. Initially to be integrated on Panther, Wildcat & NH90, but I'm sure MBDA would love to put it on MH-60.