Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Tasman

Ship Watcher
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Hey Tas, Nice to have you back and posting again :)
Yourself and others would be interested in looking at the below site
Media | RAN Seapower Conference 2012

Seapower 2012 has just finished, I have not had a chance to look through or check out the youtube vids of the sessions, but it would be a pretty good bet there would be a lot of talk regarding Amphib ops and the way forward

Cheers
Thanks :)

I thought the following comments from Chief of Army, Lieutenant General Morrison, were interesting and relevant to future LHD operations:

"I have announced that I will commit an Army Battle Group, based on our Second Battalion and including a cross section of combat and enabling capabilities from across Army, to the development of a truly amphibious capability."

"Likewise we will be required to operate every one of our armoured and aviation platforms from the LHDs simultaneously and across a spectrum of threats."

Home - Army Internet - ARMY

It is a major undertaking and as stated previously will take some years to develop.


Tas
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
As a small child I remember Bellona and a Kiwi Lock class frigate accompanied the Australian carrier Sydney on a visit to Hobart as part of a combined Comonwealth fleet of 14 warships (the largest number of warships ever seen in Hobart). It fullfilled the role you described acting as an escort for the Oz carrier. The fleet was a tremendous sight as was the flypast straight over my house by the Sydney's airgroup. Gee now I am showing my age...


Tas
Great to have you back posting Tasman.

The Bellona visited Hobart in 1949 with five of the six RNZN Loch class frigates, Kaniere, Pukaki, Rotoiti, Tutira and Taupo. One of the old mans mates was on the Bellona at the time and was talking about this very visit to me just before Christmas.

Also in February of 1955 the HMNZS Black Prince with the Loch Class Frigate HMNZS Hawea also visited Hobart for Regatta week. The Black Prince had visited in February the previous year 1954 to represent the NZ Govt on celebrating the 150th Birthday of Tasmania.

Speaking of the Bellona and the Sydney - Does anyone remember anything about this infamous naval incident.

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/41311545@N05/6525583059/"]CLASH OF THE TASMAN SEA SUPERPOWERS. After the rocket strike, HMAS SYDNEY [III] pulls up on HMNZS BELLONA to see if she's okay - Photo The Argus, SLV. | Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]

The pilot was a Kiwi in an RAN Sea Fury and got a medal for nearly sinking the flagship of the RNZN. :eek:nfloorl:
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Great to have you back posting Tasman.

The Bellona visited Hobart in 1949 with five of the six RNZN Loch class frigates, Kaniere, Pukaki, Rotoiti, Tutira and Taupo. One of the old mans mates was on the Bellona at the time and was talking about this very visit to me just before Christmas.

Also in February of 1955 the HMNZS Black Prince with the Loch Class Frigate HMNZS Hawea also visited Hobart for Regatta week. The Black Prince had visited in February the previous year 1954 to represent the NZ Govt on celebrating the 150th Birthday of Tasmania.

Speaking of the Bellona and the Sydney - Does anyone remember anything about this infamous naval incident.

CLASH OF THE TASMAN SEA SUPERPOWERS. After the rocket strike, HMAS SYDNEY [III] pulls up on HMNZS BELLONA to see if she's okay - Photo The Argus, SLV. | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

The pilot was a Kiwi in an RAN Sea Fury and got a medal for nearly sinking the flagship of the RNZN. :eek:nfloorl:
Thanks for the welcome back.

Just as well it was a Kiwi pilot!

Tas
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Speaking of the Bellona and the Sydney - Does anyone remember anything about this infamous naval incident.

CLASH OF THE TASMAN SEA SUPERPOWERS. After the rocket strike, HMAS SYDNEY [III] pulls up on HMNZS BELLONA to see if she's okay - Photo The Argus, SLV. | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

The pilot was a Kiwi in an RAN Sea Fury and got a medal for nearly sinking the flagship of the RNZN. :eek:nfloorl:
Interesting report. Good to see that we never let the truth get in the way of a good story. I had to laugh about the Maritime museum not reporting that the pilot of the Sea Fury was a KIwi! Yes there was a lot of talk about the Kiwi regatta boat being sabotaged, especially as Sydney's boat won the race. The Royal Hobart Regatta was spoiled by bad weather that year so the visiting fleet put on a naval regatta - I still remember the finale which was a fireworks display put on by the fleet at anchor.

BTW my interest in naval and aviation matters began with that flypast over my house by the Sea Furies and Fireflies from Sydney and a subsequent tour aboard Sydney and the heavy cruiser Australia. Sydney was carrying an extra Sea Fury Squadron at the time in readiness for a deployment to Korea and the exercises by the combined fleet were an excellent work up for her airgroup which was 50% larger than normal.


Tas
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
As a small child I remember Bellona and a Kiwi Lock class frigate accompanied the Australian carrier Sydney on a visit to Hobart as part of a combined Comonwealth fleet of 14 warships (the largest number of warships ever seen in Hobart). It fullfilled the role you described acting as an escort for the Oz carrier. The fleet was a tremendous sight as was the flypast straight over my house by the Sydney's airgroup. Gee now I am showing my age...


Tas
Geez mate, my dad was a Radio Op (PO) on Sydney...
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
I thought the following comments from Chief of Army, Lieutenant General Morrison, were interesting and relevant to future LHD operations:

"I have announced that I will commit an Army Battle Group, based on our Second Battalion and including a cross section of combat and enabling capabilities from across Army, to the development of a truly amphibious capability."

"Likewise we will be required to operate every one of our armoured and aviation platforms from the LHDs simultaneously and across a spectrum of threats."

Home - Army Internet - ARMY

It is a major undertaking and as stated previously will take some years to develop.


Tas
In the February edition of 'Army' Lt Gen Morrison mentions 5 years as the timescale just to bring 2RAR up to speed in amphibious operations after which a start will be made on spreading the capability across the rest of 3 Bde. So, short of a major emergency intervening, it looks like it will take up to a decade before the LHDs will be able to operate at full capacity in the amphibious role.

For both navy and army the requirement to develop the capability to land large numbers of troops in a high threat area as opposed to just transporting them is a major change in doctrine so it will be important to get it right.

In the meantime I am sure the RAN will want to demonstrate the value of the LHDs as a national asset, in areas such as disaster relief, just as the RAAF has done with its C-17s.


Tas
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
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In the February edition of 'Army' Lt Gen Morrison mentions 5 years as the timescale just to bring 2RAR up to speed in amphibious operations after which a start will be made on spreading the capability across the rest of 3 Bde. So, short of a major emergency intervening, it looks like it will take up to a decade before the LHDs will be able to operate at full capacity in the amphibious role.
Bear in mind the way the ADF assesses competency these days includes an awful lot of signing off on things to achieve accreditation. So whilst 2RAR may be able to knock the socks of an amphibious landing six months after training with the LHDs compared to the Army’s previous capability there is a range of more complex skills that may not have been reached to achieve full accreditation. Especially since the accredited standard is going to be en par with the USMC and RM standards. This is what is going to take time to achieve particularly in the C2, joint fires and logistics side of things.
 
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lopez

Member
Any idea how all the other support roles are going to fit into the amphib group?
they aren't all going to be infantry. How are these units going to qualify and rotate for amphibious ops?

Edit: probably more appropriate for the army thread...
 
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alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
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Is anyone else seeing the irony here that it is the whinging from the resources industry and the West who don't feel defended enough that has prompted the FPR, but it is the resources industry that won't give the RAN room alongside to refuel/resupply? Maybe instead of the RRT, Australia should be implementing the Resource Defence Tax.

.
Iron ore will peak at about $160 a tonne this quater but will drop. Working on $150 per tonne and 10000 tonnes per hours (which is not the fastest laod rate) means that an iron ore berth will lose 1.5 million per hour where the berth is not available.

Add to this ore bertsh are not really suited to warships anyway means the bertsh you are looking at are the common user or mulit purtpose berths. These are flat chat andthe expansion of such facilities are being paid for by the resouse companies not the government in all cases.

Either way these draw in a lot of revenue for port authorites that needs to be recouped if they are not avialable. If you want dedicated wharf space you are going ot ahve to pay for it or own it.

I am not defending the miners but a resourse rent tax may work better if you hit compnies onthe basis of thier ownership percentage with those ith significant Australian ownership paying less than the one that are fully foreign owned. At least that would encourage Australian ownership and some of the profit would stay here.

Roll on soveriegn wealth fund....................... bugger I am dreaming again.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Tee Centre Post # 7894


In the case of Learmonth, I believe there was a wharf to off load aviation fuel and stores during WW2, and given the airfield is about 500m-1km from the coast there is an opportunity for fluids and stores to be offloaded at a wharf near the airfield,

It seems a shame that there is no room in the RAN OoB for a HMAS Stalwart type of depot/engineering support ship. Having her would mean that most ports could become a naval base for operations, and her support was of enormous benefit when deploying to foreign exercises.
The old Learmonth jetty is limited by draft to 3.5 mtrs and can experience 3 mtr swells. Kailis trawlers used it intermittently during the 90's until it was maxed by TC Vance.

Totolly agree with a Stalwart lookalike. This would provide enormous flexibility and would go a long way to restoring the naval engineering competence that has been lost over the last two decades by ensuring that engineers posted to FMU (whatever today's equivalent is) could carry out real maintenance work (Rizzo was very strong on this point)
Cheers
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Any idea how all the other support roles are going to fit into the amphib group?
they aren't all going to be infantry. How are these units going to qualify and rotate for amphibious ops?
The enablers will all come from 3 Bde/Townsville initially (except for ASLAV until 2015), and they will be attached to and train up/be certified with 2 RAR in the same way it happens now with the RBG. Eventually the enablers will rotate around the brigades with the force generation cycle, with each brigade spending a year as the ready brigade.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Naval base plan to bring job bonanza

am i the only one who doesnt see the point in a base on the Gold Coast?

almost no present port infrastructure, no present Military Infrastructure. the nearest Army/Airforce bases are in Brisbane anyway
I'm with you, crazy idea dreamed up by the white shoe brigade! Still better, why doesn't defence buy some really big dredges so we can turn all the waterways into suitable passages for deep water shipping, it won't cost much!!!
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
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am i the only one who doesnt see the point in a base on the Gold Coast?

almost no present port infrastructure, no present Military Infrastructure. the nearest Army/Airforce bases are in Brisbane anyway
The Gold Coast is the home of Canungra a major defence base (home of defence intelligence training) and is closer to Amberley and Enoggera than many of the bases in the Sydney basin are to each other (by travel time if not crows flight).

But the story and the proposal is total nonsense dreamt up for local consumption only. The Gold Coast has a major boat industry but that’s because boats are small and don’t need much water depth to get to the sea. But any RAN vessel bigger than a patrol boat could never be based on the Gold Coast because all the waterways are too shallow.

The navigable depth of the Gold Coast Broadwater is no more than 4m. Tough luck basing any RAN ships there...
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Gold Coast is the home of Canungra a major defence base (home of defence intelligence training) and is closer to Amberley and Enoggera than many of the bases in the Sydney basin are to each other (by travel time if not crows flight).

But the story and the proposal is total nonsense dreamt up for local consumption only. The Gold Coast has a major boat industry but that’s because boats are small and don’t need much water depth to get to the sea. But any RAN vessel bigger than a patrol boat could never be based on the Gold Coast because all the waterways are too shallow.

The navigable depth of the Gold Coast Broadwater is no more than 4m. Tough luck basing any RAN ships there...
It'd probably help with retention though...

:coffee
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The Gold Coast is the home of Canungra a major defence base (home of defence intelligence training) and is closer to Amberley and Enoggera than many of the bases in the Sydney basin are to each other (by travel time if not crows flight).

But the story and the proposal is total nonsense dreamt up for local consumption only. The Gold Coast has a major boat industry but that’s because boats are small and don’t need much water depth to get to the sea. But any RAN vessel bigger than a patrol boat could never be based on the Gold Coast because all the waterways are too shallow.

The navigable depth of the Gold Coast Broadwater is no more than 4m. Tough luck basing any RAN ships there...
But that would be perfect! The Austal MRV 80 only has a draft of 3.2 m so that would fit, and as the story said, dredging would become the responsibility of the Federal gov't so if they wanted the RAN to have something with larger draft there, they could...

-Cheers
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
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So the real question relates to politics as with most odd decisions... Is it a marginal seat? Who is behind the political donations/lobbying?
 

phreeky

Active Member
Just sounds like stupid local politics to me, some local member trying to look like he is doing something for a dwindling local economy that is traditionally based on tourism.
 
Iron ore will peak at about $160 a tonne this quater but will drop. Working on $150 per tonne and 10000 tonnes per hours (which is not the fastest laod rate) means that an iron ore berth will lose 1.5 million per hour where the berth is not available.

<snip>

I am not defending the miners but a resourse rent tax may work better if you hit compnies onthe basis of thier ownership percentage with those ith significant Australian ownership paying less than the one that are fully foreign owned. At least that would encourage Australian ownership and some of the profit would stay here.

Roll on soveriegn wealth fund....................... bugger I am dreaming again.
I was just pointing out the cognitive dissonance at work here. Miners complain that the RAN isn't around. Miners use all wharf space available. RAN at fault for not being around.
I think they use similar logic when it comes to mineral ownership, rights and royalties.
Although finding fault with many of the opinions expressed, I loved the documentary The Corporation for comparing the behaviour of corporations (who have most of the rights of an individual, but none of the social responsibilities of an individual) against a mental illness diagnostic criteria. The conclusion? Corporations are psychopaths!

To be frank, I'm in two minds as to the worth of the mining industry to the Australian economy. Great for WA, sucks if your economy is based on manufacturing, agriculture, services or anything else that isn't mining. Everything is great if you work in the mining industry and you can live like a cashed up bogan, meanwhile large areas of the Australian economy not devoted to extracting and exporting large amounts of ore to far flung places are withering. Cashed up mining interests pay a lot in tax, but businesses that are struggling due to the high dollar are paying less taxes (and employ a lot more people than the miners). How long before the Australian economy is as hollow as that of a Gulf state?
Just like politics where a long-term plan goes out to four years and a lifetime is eight years, there is no thought to sustaining a company further than the tenure of a CEO and his/her next bonus via a 5% share price bump.

What happens when mineral reserves start being exhausted and we no longer value-add (Australian processing into metals, manufacturing, etc) and we didn't save any of the income (a sovereign wealth fund)? It wasn't that long ago we were saying Australia had black coal and iron ore reserves to last hundreds of years, now it is 100 and 70 years. Zinc, gold, manganese will last less than that. Diamonds is something like 15 years. Wow, better hope we either find more deposits or demand doesn't keep increasing.

<Sarcasm mode: On>
Accelerating extraction of everything and selling it all now is a great idea, because it is not as if demand is going to continue growing as China and India develop into post-industrial economies. And as we all learned in Economics 101 when supply diminishes as mineral resources are exhausted the prices of the resources goes down. So we should be selling everything off now as quickly as it can be extracted, shipped and value-added in China.
<Sarcasm mode: Off>

But this is a forum for discussing military matters that are paid for by mining and not the politics of mining, so that is that last I'll bleat on about the matter.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
HMAS SUCCESS Status

Gents, I vaguely remember that there were some hints given, from those who know, that Success was inoperable, possibly for good. Something to do with shaft alignments post the double-hulling.
Heard nothing since. Has anyone (possibly Icelord?) got the latest?
 
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