Falklands tensions

Lindermyer

New Member
My point being that if Britain leaves it to the court in Haag (Haque) to decide and with a positive refferendum on the islands (you have to make the refferendum, the british goverment can't just state the, perhaps, obvious), Britain will not only most likely win the case, it will also abolish any legal claim that Argentine might think it has.

With you now and i see where you are coming from, sadly to many tinpot countries would probably make this an exercise in futility.

Im not sure if Argentina would abide by the result many sources in argentina claim the population on the islands was introduced or significantly increased post 1982 i dont know if this is an official position or just mud slinging, for the record the resident population is much the same now as in 1982, obviously ther are an additional 1500 servicemen but obviously these wouldnt get to vote


The other way around, which is the status as of now, is that Britain in a long
forgotten war with Spain got hold on the islands and moved her own population onto them- Something that Argentine along with friends questions the legality/relevance of and claim that the islands rightfully and naturally is part of Argentine, which, by looking at a map, they might have a point in.
For now Britain can continue inforcing her sovereignity by raw force, but I question the prudence and long term sustainability in that strategy.
Disagree here the french and british occupied them (the 2 settlements unaware of each other. They were later abandoned by both the British left a plaque stating ownership (and i conceed thats fairly worthless), Spain bought them off France the americans then threw the spanish out and the British swiftlty reoccupied them. They have been continuosly British since about 1830.

The argentine claim is based on the fact that they were Spanish and argentina was a Spanish colony and that they are near argentina, by which logic Chile could claim them Britain could claim Iceland and Canada could claim those French Islands (I forgot the name)

The Islands are to all intents and purposes independent they rely only on the UK for defence.

Its a shame that Ms Kirchiner (spelling) tore up the agreement between the UK and Argentina regarding sharing resources (oil) around the Islands, with some co-operation hera all parties could be better off.

Sadly Ms Kirchiner et al (with a Vocal Minority) are trying to use the Islands to deflect from troubles at home. It has to be said that as the claims are becoming increasingly ridiculous (ready to counter british invasion, SSBN in south Atlantic etc). I can only imagine how embarrased the average Argentinian must be feeling with respect to the government.


It is a shame that the surrender document could not include a statement that Argentina rescinds all claim, thus potentially removing the current problems.

Obviously this would have been unaceptable to Argentina and insisting on it would have resulted in a Korea type situation whereby we would have remained effectively at war until this day (argentina being unable to re-invade and Britain unable to take any action against Argentina). This I think we can all agree being a worse situation all round.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
My point being that if Britain leaves it to the court in Haag (Haque) to decide and with a positive refferendum on the islands
There is no guarantee of winning such a case. And even if we did, there's no guarantee Argentina would respect the judgment - or that other South American countries would. Argentina would have nothing to lose by going to the court but Britain would have everything to lose.

Something that Argentine along with friends questions the legality/relevance of and claim that the islands rightfully and naturally is part of Argentine, which, by looking at a map, they might have a point in.
"A is nearer to B than C" is not relevant international law in this case. If it was, it would indicate that France would have the right of demanding the UK hand over the Channel Islands.

Britain beat Argentina in terms of discovering the islands and establishing a presence there. Yes, Argentina had a brief presence there too. But it was only after Britain had become involved in the islands and that Argentinian presence was removed after a short period of time. The vast majority of the time there have been people living in the Falklands was when it has been under British control (full or partial). There's nothing to discuss.
 

rip

New Member
In all fairness I think one can say that while Argentine's claim to the islands are weak, the same can be said of the british claim. And eventhough feelings run high on the subject, both countries got a point.

The typical way civilised nations deals with such problems is through international mediation (f.ex. International Court of Justice, Haag) , and as far as I understand it, that's also the Argentine position, and I know that the rest of the world (including UK's close allies) also surport that solution, but the UK does not surport such a solution, as the only country in the world. There are ofcourse reasons for the british position; the war and all that.

Personally I think this issue once again underlines Cameron's weaknesses as an leader for what should be a great power. It can not be in UK's interest to have a permanent territorial conflict running with Argentine and their friends (who surport them warmly on this single issue) in the entirety of South America - that's a lot of people, including a potential future great power.

The UK could do the following; Have an internationally overseen refferendum on the islands: Do you want to be: A) british, B) Argentine, C) Independent

Assuming (A), Britain should surrender the case to mediation at Haag, citing "self determination of the peoples" - And that argument will carry the day.

It appears that "Thatcherist hardliners" prevents Cameron from engageing his brain, just like at his serious defeat back in december at the EU.

I think Britain had the varm surport of the public oppinion of the entire free world, when she re-took the islands in a difficult battle, but britain failed to turn the millitary victory into a political victory: a permanent political solution, to the advantage of Britain.
To believe that the UN can or will come together and make fair and just decisions of emotionally driven issues or has ether the physical or moral power to enforce its decisions is a wonderfully naive European point of view that amazes me every time I hear it expressed. What little good the UN dose do, and that is not very much, it is always driven by the great powers that have to use the most cynical of vote buying tactics and horse trading, even in the most transparent moral issues to get any support and even that small ability may be a thing of the past.

Any right thinking person would come to the conclusion that the people living there upon those islands and whom are the only people how have ever lived on those islands, have the right to determine their own destiny and there would be nothing more to discus. The fact that there are a lot of people who cannot think right doesn’t mean that you have to negotiate anything with them or that any negotiation will ever find a just conclusion.

The issue will be decided that way that it is always decided with power. I wish this was not true but it is. Argentina will not give up its fantastic dreams until the day comes where that dreams become so expensive that they are forced to. As it now stands, Argentina can threaten, politic and attach any time it wants to and otherwise it has nothing to lose. Until that have soothing to lose for continuing this activity they will continue.
 

Astute

New Member
There is no guarantee of winning such a case. And even if we did, there's no guarantee Argentina would respect the judgment - or that other South American countries would. Argentina would have nothing to lose by going to the court but Britain would have everything to lose.



"A is nearer to B than C" is not relevant international law in this case. If it was, it would indicate that France would have the right of demanding the UK hand over the Channel Islands.

Britain beat Argentina in terms of discovering the islands and establishing a presence there. Yes, Argentina had a brief presence there too. But it was only after Britain had become involved in the islands and that Argentinian presence was removed after a short period of time. The vast majority of the time there have been people living in the Falklands was when it has been under British control (full or partial). There's nothing to discuss.
Totally Agree , i cant see what there really is to discuss except the behaviour of Argentina ,as i have said in some of my own posts, there are up to 3000 British citizens on the Falklands its there Home, the community have been there for over 100+ years they should be protected not just by the UK but by international law they dont threaten Argentina in any way they want to live in peace ,yet they have to live under the threat of Argentina and because Argentina wants the islands we should consider giving in to a bully and give them what they want, NO WAY JOSE
 

Aga Majid

Banned Member
Malvinas belong to Argentina

British are illegitimate occupiers of Malvinas. They belong to the people of Argentina. Colonialism died last century. Britain is a vassal state dependent on the US for its defense. Its about time justice is done and the British colonialists are booted out of the last vestige of colonialism.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Britain beat Argentina in terms of discovering the islands and establishing a presence there. Yes, Argentina had a brief presence there too. But it was only after Britain had become involved in the islands.
This is arguable. Firstly, there is no agreement on the discovery of the islands. The usual British claim is that they were discovered by John Davis in 1592, followed by Richard Hawkins, but the Spanish & Portuguese both dispute this, claiming earlier sightings - and since they'd been sailing around those waters for over 70 years by then, it's quite likely that they're right. There were several documented sightings of & some visits to land that could have been the Falklands before 1592. There was even an English one - Drake. It is also disputed whether the land Davis & Hawkins saw was actually the Falklands.

The first completely undisputed sighting was by a Dutch navigator in 1600.

Secondly, we were not the first to establish a presence. That was done by the French, in February 1764. We followed in 1766 (there was a visit in January 1765, 11 months after the French settlement, but no settlers until the following year), not knowing the French had beaten us to it. The Spanish, however, had spotted the French settlement, objected to it, & got recognition by the French of their priority, all before we noticed the French presence in December 1766. In April 1767, the French formally handed over their settlement to the Spanish. Usual rules would have that dated from February 1764 - continuity of occupation, recognition of title, etc.

Our presence in the islands was relatively brief: 1766 to 1776, when we voluntarily withdrew, & with a hiatus in 1770-1 when a Spanish flotilla forced (without fighting) our temporary evacuation. We retained a formal claim, but did nothing about it for 53 years, & nothing except verbal protests for 56 years.

Argentina claims (& this is normal, & generally accepted in such cases) that it is the heir to Spanish jurisdiction. The Spanish settlement, run from Buenos Aires, was occupied from 1767 (1764 counting the ceded French foundation) until 1811. By then Spain had lost control of what is now Argentina, & the settlement (without a Spanish governor since 1806, the Spanish having urgent business in Europe) was evacuated in 1811 by the provisional revolutionary government of Rio de La Plata, which was to become formally independent as Argentina.

From 1811, there was no government in the islands for a while, though there was occupation, by a motley international crew of sealers & whalers. The first attempt to establish a government of sorts was undoubtedly Argentinean. There was a formal claim & flag-raising in 1820, the purely nominal appointment of an absentee governor in 1824, & more significantly, its recognition of Luis Vernet as having delegated authority, & his colony, established gradually from 1824 onwards. Vernet's colony was pretty well wrecked by the US navy in 1831, & Argentina responded by sending a governor, & when he was murdered, an Argentinean navy officer took charge.

When the Royal Navy arrived in 1832 (our first official presence since 1776), it found an Argentinean warship, & a naval officer trying to impose some order with the aid of his crew. The Argentineans most definitely did not establish a presence only after we'd got involved. Our involvement was in response to the Argentinean presence. It took several years of their presence before we even complained, & three years after that before we did anything more.

We have a perfectly good claim based on 179 years of occupation & government, over 170 years of settlement, & the self-determination of the population. We don't need to pretend we were there first.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The argentine claim is based on the fact that they were Spanish and argentina was a Spanish colony and that they are near argentina, by which logic Chile could claim them Britain could claim Iceland and Canada could claim those French Islands (I forgot the name).
There's no need to misrepresent things. We have a valid claim (see my previous post) which in my opinion, & I think that of most international jurists, overrides the Argentinean one. But in 1830, Argentina undoubtedly had the best claim of any country.

Argentina's claim was partly based on the Falklands having been part of the territory which seceded from Spain in effect in 1810, & formally in 1816. It was also based on an Argentinean settlement, & the establishment of an Argentinean legal authority, which took place in the 1820s (though both were somewhat tokenish - just as the British settlement of the 1760s-70s was). Their claim was thus rather better than their claim to Patagonia, or the claim of the USA in the late 1780s to what is now Mississippi & Michigan.
 
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Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
British are illegitimate occupiers of Malvinas. They belong to the people of Argentina. Colonialism died last century. Britain is a vassal state dependent on the US for its defense. Its about time justice is done and the British colonialists are booted out of the last vestige of colonialism.
You might not have seen what happened in the last few pages, but when a poster came on here slinging insults at Argentina he got banned. Regardless of your position on the topic, it is unacceptable to the mod team to have posters lowering the tone of the discussion with deliberately disrespectful attacks on entire nations. If you persist in this, you will go the same way.

I don't care if you're from Argentina, Britain or Mars, you will conduct yourself with respect on these forums, or not at all. Posters are welcome to convey a critical point of view on the issue but there's a world of difference between that and taking opportunistic swipes at foreign countries. This will be your only warning as the mod team's expectations have been stated repeatedly.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
My point being that if Britain leaves it to the court in Haag (Haque) to decide and with a positive refferendum on the islands (you have to make the refferendum, the british goverment can't just state the, perhaps, obvious), Britain will not only most likely win the case, it will also abolish any legal claim that Argentine might think it has.
Argentina I believe will not agree for any referendum if only conducted by existing islanders demographic. After all they're the one who claimed that the original islanders (which is Argentinian according to them) was expelled from the island. In short, if referendum option being put, Argentina could try to include their own citizen to be involved.

The referendum option can't be satisfied for all parties in the dispute, if one of the parties continued to claim the existing residences is not original residences (thus make the referendum in Argentina eyes illegitimate).

That's why on my previous post, I raised the questions whether Argentinians believe with Britain under economic pressure, they can increased the heat thus push Britain to negotiate more appropriate (in Argentinian eyes) diplomatic solutions. After all Kirchener knows, there's no way any military solution can be conducted with what Argentinian military capability now has.
 

Aga Majid

Banned Member
You might not have seen what happened in the last few pages, but when a poster came on here slinging insults at Argentina he got banned. Regardless of your position on the topic, it is unacceptable to the mod team to have posters lowering the tone of the discussion with deliberately disrespectful attacks on entire nations. If you persist in this, you will go the same way.

I don't care if you're from Argentina, Britain or Mars, you will conduct yourself with respect on these forums, or not at all. Posters are welcome to convey a critical point of view on the issue but there's a world of difference between that and taking opportunistic swipes at foreign countries. This will be your only warning as the mod team's expectations have been stated repeatedly.
Please go right ahead. If you do not have the moxie to bear an opposing opinion, then as a critical thinker, this forum is much below my expectations. Stifling of opposing opinion is done by people with fascistic controlling personalities. Prove myself wrong! Touche!
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Please go right ahead. If you do not have the moxie to bear an opposing opinion, then as a critical thinker, this forum is much below my expectations. Stifling of opposing opinion is done by people with fascistic controlling personalities. Prove myself wrong! Touche!
Critical Thinker you call yourself ? What critical thinker you have when all you say in your post is just some anti-colonialism rumbling. Do you know, most islanders want to stay with British. Do you even know, that those islands has no 'native' populations in beginning besides seals ?

In this sense, Argentina also can be say working on colonialism agenda, since they want to colonize a territory which someone else already occupied first.

Sorry Mod, can't help it. This guy really funny. :D
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #132
Please go right ahead. If you do not have the moxie to bear an opposing opinion, then as a critical thinker, this forum is much below my expectations. Stifling of opposing opinion is done by people with fascistic controlling personalities. Prove myself wrong! Touche!
Critical thinker? More like politically brainwashed.

This coming from the person who says "colonialism is dead" yet you appear to be advocating colonialism on the Falkland Islands.

We advocate self determination, if the islanders wish to become Argentinian then they only have to ask, however they do not. So are you suggesting on imposing a nationality on them which they did not ask for? Hmm . . . . .
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Time to move on.

The idealogues have been sin binned so no more need to react to their commentary
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Please go right ahead. If you do not have the moxie to bear an opposing opinion, then as a critical thinker, this forum is much below my expectations. Stifling of opposing opinion is done by people with fascistic controlling personalities. Prove myself wrong! Touche!
Well, glad we could agree on the whole banning thing, at least.

Sincerely

The Fascist (aka the Sensitivity Police)
 

Lindermyer

New Member
There's no need to misrepresent things. We have a valid claim (see my previous post) which in my opinion, & I think that of most international jurists, overrides the Argentinean one. But in 1830, Argentina undoubtedly had the best claim of any country.

Argentina's claim was partly based on the Falklands having been part of the territory which seceded from Spain in effect in 1810, & formally in 1816. It was also based on an Argentinean settlement, & the establishment of an Argentinean legal authority, which took place between Their claim was thus rather better than their claim to Patagonia, or the claim of the USA in the late 1780s to what is now Mississippi & Michigan.
Unintentional i assure you I forgot about the argentine colony, although Britain (perhaps somewhat optimistically) still claimed them.


IIRC Argentina also renounced their claim circa 1850, although I cant for the life of me remember why.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
We have a perfectly good claim based on 179 years of occupation & government, over 170 years of settlement, & the self-determination of the population. We don't need to pretend we were there first.
We were there before Argentina - that's the point I was making. The "heir to Spain" argument is rubbish, so it's useful to remind them of our much earlier involvement.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The "heir to Spain" argument is not rubbish. It's recognised by every relevant legal body as having validity, & is the basis of most of the territory of most of the countries in the world.

Our claim wasn't maintained for over 50 years, during which time first Spain (continuously for 35 years without any argument from us), then Rio de la Plata/Argentina enforced their claims. Any modern court of international law would say that our claim lapsed as a result. Use it or lose it applies to territorial claims - and Argentinean failure to maintain their claim for much of the period since 1833 is one of the bases of our claim.

As I keep saying, we don't need to rubbish the pre-1833 Argentinean claim for ours to be valid. Doing so doesn't make our claim more valid, but it does make us look inconsistent.
 

lopez

Member
The "heir to Spain" argument is not rubbish. It's recognised by every relevant legal body as having validity, & is the basis of most of the territory of most of the countries in the world.

Our claim wasn't maintained for over 50 years, during which time first Spain (continuously for 35 years without any argument from us), then Rio de la Plata/Argentina enforced their claims. Any modern court of international law would say that our claim lapsed as a result. Use it or lose it applies to territorial claims - and Argentinean failure to maintain their claim for much of the period since 1833 is one of the bases of our claim.

As I keep saying, we don't need to rubbish the pre-1833 Argentinean claim for ours to be valid. Doing so doesn't make our claim more valid, but it does make us look inconsistent.
Well assuming the law is universal and indifferent doesn't the same apply to Argentina? Surely their claim has lapsed. So if Argentina bases its claim on Britain's claim lapsing how can they even sustain there claim logically for themselves?Or even in their own mind. Let alone thinking they could convince anyone else that there claims are valid.

This is very bizarre...
 

rip

New Member
British are illegitimate occupiers of Malvinas. They belong to the people of Argentina. Colonialism died last century. Britain is a vassal state dependent on the US for its defense. Its about time justice is done and the British colonialists are booted out of the last vestige of colonialism.
You make statements without justification as if they are facts just because you said them. No matter how many times you say something, the act of just saying it, does not make it true. Everyone has opinions but unless you can justify your opinions with something more substantial than empty slogans there is no reason to care what your opinions are nor to give your opinions any serious consideration.

I could smear you with string of emotionally charged slogans but that would not improve the discussion ether.
 

exPrivate

Member
Well, I`m not an expert in international law, but IMO "the heir to Spain" will be a strong argument if Spain is nonexistant, but thanks God, there is Spain.
Still I`d like to draw your attention to the speech of foreign minister Timerman at the UNO. Would anyone comment? I dare not. :D
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PDPmVN5-lI"]Argentina acusa al Reino Unido de militarizar el Atlántico sur 10-02-2012 - YouTube[/nomedia]
 
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