Falklands tensions

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
the tone of this thread needs to settle down

refer #133

any further "too and fro" commentary will be deleted by the mods

exclude the emotion and once again, stay with the mechanics of the debate.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
Just to repeat my self:

The current situation is a big problem for the UK - not for argentine (they just heat the pot at will). And its in Britain's best interest to somehow "legalise" the situation and get mutual reconized borders. Eventhough there is a fair condescending tune towards the Argentinians and by extention, also more or less the entirety of South America in here, fact of the matter is that UK needs them more than they need the UK (infact they don't need the UK at all, and just want the UK to pack the bag and go home - no offense to resident brits intended). And it's easy to note that Britain is isolated on this subject, The US is not surporting the current UK-policy of "Argentine plz sod off" and neither is the rest of Europe or for that matter, the rest of the world.

So as a friend, I suggest that britain find some way to set things straight. My own suggestion is the International Court of Justice in Haque, that on serveral occasion has ressolved such territorial disputes. No, we can't know whether britain or Argentine is going to accept the verdict, but it will set the legal side of the matter straight (Which as Swerve points out is not so easy, as some think). And should the verdict go against Britain, then the British situation hasn't changed much, Britain can still claim it's sovereignity by force (and veto any Argentine attempt to do something legal about the situation in the UNSC).


@Swerve
Interesting historical walk through. I think that the best british claim is that the islanders (I think) want to be british (Self-determination) , there is also a good point about british permanent control of the area, but I think that, that one is mostly used when someone doesn't inforce control, they can loose the claim. It makes sense because the argentines are exactly challenging British control of the islands, and the british can't just "sit the argentine claim out".
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
Well, I`m not an expert in international law, but IMO "the heir to Spain" will be a strong argument if Spain is nonexistant, but thanks God, there is Spain.
Still I`d like to draw your attention to the speech of foreign minister Timerman at the UNO. Would anyone comment? I dare not. :D
Argentina acusa al Reino Unido de militarizar el Atlántico sur 10-02-2012 - YouTube
Generally I think that the historical claims are not given much credibility - and that of a good reason.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Well, I`m not an expert in international law, but IMO "the heir to Spain" will be a strong argument if Spain is nonexistant, but thanks God, there is Spain.
I'm afraid you've misunderstood the argument. The continued existence of the UK does not detract from the claims of numerous countries to be its heirs in particular cases, most of which we agree with. Ditto for Spain & former Spanish colonies. Any country becoming independent from another, or formed by a union of previously existing countries, or acquiring territory from another, can be an heir, in the sense used here.
 

Belesari

New Member
Just to repeat my self:

The current situation is a big problem for the UK - not for argentine (they just heat the pot at will). And its in Britain's best interest to somehow "legalise" the situation and get mutual reconized borders. Eventhough there is a fair condescending tune towards the Argentinians and by extention, also more or less the entirety of South America in here, fact of the matter is that UK needs them more than they need the UK (infact they don't need the UK at all, and just want the UK to pack the bag and go home - no offense to resident brits intended). And it's easy to note that Britain is isolated on this subject, The US is not surporting the current UK-policy of "Argentine plz sod off" and neither is the rest of Europe or for that matter, the rest of the world.

So as a friend, I suggest that britain find some way to set things straight. My own suggestion is the International Court of Justice in Haque, that on serveral occasion has ressolved such territorial disputes. No, we can't know whether britain or Argentine is going to accept the verdict, but it will set the legal side of the matter straight (Which as Swerve points out is not so easy, as some think). And should the verdict go against Britain, then the British situation hasn't changed much, Britain can still claim it's sovereignity by force (and veto any Argentine attempt to do something legal about the situation in the UNSC).


@Swerve
Interesting historical walk through. I think that the best british claim is that the islanders (I think) want to be british (Self-determination) , there is also a good point about british permanent control of the area, but I think that, that one is mostly used when someone doesn't inforce control, they can loose the claim. It makes sense because the argentines are exactly challenging British control of the islands, and the british can't just "sit the argentine claim out".
OK i was under the impression the people of the falkland islands voted to stay british? The british people and crown accepted this so doesnt that make the point mute? So....

And why does everyone want the falkland islands. Is it more a matter of pride? And why now...percived weakness of the british navy?

And judging the position of the American people in a election year is a Very bad idea. If most americans knew where the Falkland islands were and knew it was the brits vs argentina they will most likely side with the brits. But then most americans have little clue or care about what happens beyond their borders unless its a threat or someone tells them to be angry or happy on tv.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Well assuming the law is universal and indifferent doesn't the same apply to Argentina? Surely their claim has lapsed.
If you read my posts, you'll see I've already said that.

But the Argentinean claim was never based on our 18th century claim having lapsed, so they're not being hypocritical in refusing to take account of their failure to press their claim for many years. They didn't recognise our claim as having any validity in the first place. To them (& here, they have a good point), our settlement in 1766 didn't give us any rights, as there was already a French settlement & a live Spanish claim, & the French ceded their claim & settlement to Spain.

One has to avoid being too simplistic.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
OK i was under the impression the people of the falkland islands voted to stay british? The british people and crown accepted this so doesnt that make the point mute? .
It's certainly not mute. It;s loudly expressed!

It might be moot, though.
 

Equinox

New Member
Just to repeat my self:

The current situation is a big problem for the UK - not for argentine (they just heat the pot at will). And its in Britain's best interest to somehow "legalise" the situation and get mutual reconized borders. Eventhough there is a fair condescending tune towards the Argentinians and by extention, also more or less the entirety of South America in here, fact of the matter is that UK needs them more than they need the UK (infact they don't need the UK at all, and just want the UK to pack the bag and go home - no offense to resident brits intended). And it's easy to note that Britain is isolated on this subject, The US is not surporting the current UK-policy of "Argentine plz sod off" and neither is the rest of Europe or for that matter, the rest of the world.

So as a friend, I suggest that britain find some way to set things straight. My own suggestion is the International Court of Justice in Haque, that on serveral occasion has ressolved such territorial disputes. No, we can't know whether britain or Argentine is going to accept the verdict, but it will set the legal side of the matter straight (Which as Swerve points out is not so easy, as some think). And should the verdict go against Britain, then the British situation hasn't changed much, Britain can still claim it's sovereignity by force (and veto any Argentine attempt to do something legal about the situation in the UNSC).
Er, now I may be incorrect here but there hasn't been a lack of support from the rest of the world so much as they have been staying out of it. If it came to an official stance I strongly doubt that many Western nations wouldn't side with the UK. Have you considered that they are ignoring the situation to sideline the issue and Argentina? The same as with the British largely ignoring the Argentinian pressure. They are going about things as usual occasionally commenting/pointing out how ridiculous they are being.

I also think that in the minds of the UK it is entirely pointless to go to international mediation. For one it may indicate the UK is not as firm and supportive of the issue as it is and is actually willing to cede the Islands if it can, plus it may enhance the Argentinian credibility over the issue. And two, why would they even open the possibility of negotiation when there is nothing to negotiate about? Argentina has made it pretty clear lately they want the islands full stop; while the UK guarantees the right of the islanders to self-determination, in addition to them being British citizens not to mention being a British territory in excess of 170 years. I don't see a whole lot of room for negotiation given those circumstances. Why would they waste time doing so, while also damaging their credibility by negotiating over a nonnegotiable issue?
 
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Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
And why does everyone want the falkland islands. Is it more a matter of pride? And why now...percived weakness of the british navy?
No, something simpler than that - the possibility of large oil/gas deposits.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
But the Argentinean claim was never based on our 18th century claim having lapsed, so they're not being hypocritical in refusing to take account of their failure to press their claim for many years. They didn't recognise our claim as having any validity in the first place. To them (& here, they have a good point), our settlement in 1766 didn't give us any rights, as there was already a French settlement & a live Spanish claim, & the French ceded their claim & settlement to Spain.
There are actually a couple of problems here which can muddle this even further.

While the Spanish did indeed attack and expel the British garrison at Port Egmont in 1770, following an agreement signed in London in early 1771 between Britain and Spain, British possession of the port and garrison at Egmont was restored. Further, the agreement left intact both British and Spanish claims to the islands.

Muddling the issue further still is the Nootka Sound Convention/Treaty of San Lorenzo of 1790, specifically the Secret Article ratified Nov. 22nd

SECRET ARTICLE said:
Since by article 6 of the present convention it has been stipulated, respecting the eastern and western coasts of South America, that the respective subjects shall not in the future form any establishment on the parts of these coasts situated to the south of the parts of the said coasts actually occupied by Spain, it is agreed and declared by the present article that this stipulation shall remain in force only so long as no establishment shall have been formed by the subjects of any other power on the coasts in question. This secret article shall have the same force as if it were inserted in the convention.
Given that this convention was between Spain and Britain, once Argentina (another power) attempted to establish itself on the Falklands, the British were no longer obligated to not form an establishment on the Falklands either.

Yet more potential for confusion.

Buenos Aires which is now the capital of Argentina was the capital of the Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata, up until 1810 and the May Revolution. At which point Buenos Aires effectively ceased to be part of the viceroyalty and became self-governing, even though a formal declaration of independence was not made until 1816. Following the May Revolution, the capital of the viceroyalty was transferred to Montevideo which is now the capital of Uruguay and Montevideo remained the capital of the viceroyalty until it effectivel ceased to exist following the defeat of Spanish forces in Montevideo in 1814. Part of the reason this is important to note is because a Spanish garrison and later penal colony was maintained at Port Louis until 1811, at which point the Spanish garrison was evacuated to Montevideo. The result of this is that Uruguay, or indeed any of the other nations that had land that had once been part of the Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata could claim status as an 'heir of Spain'. Going yet further with this, Spain contested the independence of the various South American nations up until the mid-1820's. Spain apparently does not end its legal claims to Argentina until treaties signed in 1858 and 1863.

What makes this particularly interesting is that the treaty of 1863 has Spain recognizing the following:

Article 1: said:
Your Catholic Majesty recognises the Republic or Confederation of Argentina as a free, supreme and independent nation that consists of all the provinces mentioned in its present federal Constitution, and other legitimate territories that belong or could belong in the future.
At the point at which Spain renounced its claims to Argentina, a British colony on existed on the Falklands for a generation...

Making things stranger still, Louis Vernet, the Argentinian who initiated a failed colonization attempt in 1824 and then again in 1826, sought a land grant from the British Consulate in Buenos Aires in 1828 for the land on the Falklands.

Then of course there is the 1850 Convention of Settlement, where diplomatic relations were resumed between Britain and Argentina. Britain at this point had been in possession of the Falklands for ~16 years and no mention was made of any claims by Argentina for them.

The 1870's were from an international diplomacy POV a noteworthy time for the Falklands, with the US, Chile, Sweden/Norway, Belgium and Germany opening consulates in Stanley.

In 1882 there was also something of significance. The Argentine Foreign Ministry financed a map now known as the Latzina Map of which ~120,000 copies were made. The reason this is significant is that the map has the territory of Argentina marked in one particular colour, and also shows some terrain features. Non-Argentinian territory was marked in another colour and did not show terrain features. On the map, the Islas Malvinas as they are marked, and Chilean territory are coloured the same, i.e. they are both non-Argentinian. This difference in land mass colouration indicating the territory being outside of Argentina is apparently what led arbitration judges at the ICJ in 1977 to rule that 3 Beagle Channel islands belonged to Chile and not Argentina.

That is it from me for now.

-Cheers
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
@Equinox

I think It's quite clear that the majority, if not all, of the world including britain's closest allies are in surport of a diplomatic solution, in line with the UN charter, to the (formally ongoing) conflict. Hence the british "we don't discuss it" policy appears isolated. And that's ofcourse not because Britain's friends thinks that Argentine got a good case.

@Todjaeger

While historically interesting, I think that many of those old historical claims of who came first, who signed which treaty etc. doesn't carry much judicial weight. Imagine if f.eks. Europe's nations started to pull up old treaties and things that "used to be", it would be never ending discussions. And in this case Argentine obviously have a different take on the history, and I think you see that very often in conflicts.


If you have a reef or some other insignificant uninhabited rock in the ocean, "history" might, in the lack of better, come into play. But in the case of the Falklands you got a population living there, and that's the main thing, which incidentially is to the great advantage of Britain, in this case.
 

Equinox

New Member
@Equinox

I think It's quite clear that the majority, if not all, of the world including britain's closest allies are in surport of a diplomatic solution, in line with the UN charter, to the (formally ongoing) conflict. Hence the british "we don't discuss it" policy appears isolated. And that's ofcourse not because Britain's friends thinks that Argentine got a good case.
You'll also find the UK wants a diplomatic solution, so I'm not sure I understand your point on the lack of support, it's not like the UK is out trying to start a war. But irregardless it doesn't mean the UK are going to put the issue up to International mediation or negotiate with the Argentinians. They've made their point quite clear, both in 82 and now, that they won't accept anything less than total control and the UK obviously has no intention of moving from it's position on the Islands right to self-determination. Negotiation doesn't work when both sides can't or won't compromise. If the allies of the UK won't support that position, then in my opinion the UK should tell them to shove it.

The UK is doing the best thing thing it can at the moment: going about as usual, not compromising, not placating and pointing out how ridiculous the Argentinian Government is being. What kind of image do you think the UK would get if it started jumping at the seemingly psychotic demands/statements the Argentinians are making? If the Argentinians calm down and start being reasonable then maybe there would be room to sit down and talk or an agreement for Int. mediation, but at the moment it would be a mistake.
 
I am spanish but the falklanders they want to remain with british passport and secondly if Argentina take the islands they will be a pile of ice, at least under british rule they will be prosperous.
Aftter the 1982 military invassion the argentines lost a lot of credibility in the claims of the islands,
 

exPrivate

Member
When we are talking about a peaceful solution and negotiations, let us have in mind that there was a kind of a reapproachment during the mid 1990-ies with some protocols signed during President Carlos Menem, but later Argentina withdrew from them unilateraly. Are there any guaranties that it won`t happen again, i.e. negotiations with Buenos Aires are not just a trick in the cap and a waste of time?
Probably that should be widely explained to all negotiations fans too? :argue

Todjaeger, My deepest respects for your most illuminating last post!
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Argentina's latest blow against the British Falklands:

The Penn is mightier than the sword

by Brendan O’Neill

Argentina's use of Sean Penn to goad Britain over the Falklands confirms the terrifying power of celebrity today.

The Penn is mightier than the sword | Brendan O’Neill | spiked

Which finishes with this priceless paragraph:

Penn is an idiot, of course he is, and the fact that he beat the peerless Mickey Rourke to the Best Actor Oscar in 2009, simply for mincing about in Milk, suggests Hollywood is full of similar idiots. Which only makes it all the more curious that these people can make such a big impact these days simply by opening their gobs and allowing whatever is in their tiny minds to pour forth.
 

exPrivate

Member
Well, it`s not only Sean Penn. I read that the Argies have some hopes that Scottish Independents will also support their claims. I am really embarassed... :confused:
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
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Well, it`s not only Sean Penn. I read that the Argies have some hopes that Scottish Independents will also support their claims. I am really embarassed... :confused:
That'll be . . . interesting.

Don't quite see how she's going to work that one, after all the Scots are voting on their own independence so i'd expect they'd have the same opinion of the situation of the Falkland Islanders - if they want it, they can vote for it. That and Salmond is far too smart to side with Argentina and get sucked into that whole debate.

And as for Penn, his siding with Argentina will come to nothing.
 

welsh1

New Member
according to the sun today quite a few high profile argentines including MP's and academics are calling all the ranting a PR stunt for votes and they support the islanders wish to remain british.

i know its the sun but there should be some truth in it.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
but I could not find it in the Argentinian press
The Argentine press is discussing it but only in the sense that they're screaming and denouncing the people that signed the letter.

Argentina is getting more authoritarian by the day, at least over the Falklands issue....
 
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