The Indonesian Army
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
Yup, sorry I mean T-64 Bulat. Anyway that's the one that the Ukraine offered with complete transferred of some production line to Pindad (well that's what I hear from Pindad sources).
How many tanks are being considered right now? Because I doubt Ukraine could produce a large number quickly, given how slow the Bulat programs has been for their military. Hence why such an offer might not just be for Indonesia's benefit, but a necessity to deliver the necessary numbers within the timeframe.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
They (Min-Def) prepared budget around USD 280 mio - USD 300 mio. So depends on what Tanks they will in the end agreed upon. Considering the Prices of second hand (surplus) Leo 2 they hoping to get 2 batalions (around 100). If the prices of Ukraines Tanks or T-90 around the same with Surplus Leo 2 then I believe they still looking for 2 batalions. However if in the end they make deal with South Korean for K1A1, then I believe1 batalion is the most they can get with the amount of budget (unless the ROK offered K1A1 from their inventory considering they plan to move to K2).
However you're right about the time-frame. TNI-AD wants to have oprational MBT Batalion/Batalions by 2014 at the latest. That's why the offered from Netherlands for surplus Leo 2 was very attractive since those Leo 2 need only minimum preparations to be fully operational for Indonesian conditions. However since TNI-AD got political hurdle from Netherlands Parliament, then they will need to find which Tanks from other supplier that meet the budget and time frame.
BTW, Found this on local forum. Some guy found this old Photo showing ex NICA (Netherland Indies Collonial Army) M-4 Sherman operated with Indonesian Marines prior Dwikora (Papua confrontation with Netherland in the 60's).
For me it's quite surprising, since so far the record show that Indonesian Army only got M-3 from NICA. However by this photo it's the Marines that got ex NICA M-4. So by this photo, it can be said that the First Medium Tank (or called it MBT) in Indonesian Armed forces is M-4 Sherman operated by the Marines. Whille the Army operated M-3 Light Tank, and subsequently after that only Light Tanks.
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Volod
New Member
Modernization hundred tanks require about one year (at Malyshev plant).
Training of crews educated to use new tanks will take no less time.
This is a more difficult task than the acquisition of МBTs, because Indonesia does not have the necessary training facilities. But it is possible to organize training in Ukraine in military academies and one tank brigade, which is armed with Bulat
If we are talking about the organization upgrades at Pindad, it will be a long process, up to 1.5-2 years.
But we can solve these problems in parallel.
Malyshev plant will modernize tanks at own facilities.
Ukraine will send a portion of the T-64B fleet for staff training in Indonesia,
these tanks can be further upgraded in Pindad to BM Bulat.
But in any case it will be a truly great work for at least 1,5 years.
And buying tanks - this is only the beginning of the process of creating armored forces in any case.
Five factors affect it - the presence of MBT, crew training, the training base for the tank forces must be created in Indonesia, repair and recovery line must be created in Pindad.
And last but not least - the military doctrine of MBT must be created, comprehended by Indonesian army, and tested in military exercises.
Regardless of the choice of a tank supplier, these five steps will have to go.
And the cost and the ability to perform these tasks will vary each other more than the tank price.
Training of crews educated to use new tanks will take no less time.
This is a more difficult task than the acquisition of МBTs, because Indonesia does not have the necessary training facilities. But it is possible to organize training in Ukraine in military academies and one tank brigade, which is armed with Bulat
If we are talking about the organization upgrades at Pindad, it will be a long process, up to 1.5-2 years.
But we can solve these problems in parallel.
Malyshev plant will modernize tanks at own facilities.
Ukraine will send a portion of the T-64B fleet for staff training in Indonesia,
these tanks can be further upgraded in Pindad to BM Bulat.
But in any case it will be a truly great work for at least 1,5 years.
And buying tanks - this is only the beginning of the process of creating armored forces in any case.
Five factors affect it - the presence of MBT, crew training, the training base for the tank forces must be created in Indonesia, repair and recovery line must be created in Pindad.
And last but not least - the military doctrine of MBT must be created, comprehended by Indonesian army, and tested in military exercises.
Regardless of the choice of a tank supplier, these five steps will have to go.
And the cost and the ability to perform these tasks will vary each other more than the tank price.
Hmm at 100 tanks, 1.5 years sounds optimistic. They've been upgrading 10-20 tanks a year for the Ukranian army. So I don't think they'd be able to deliver 100 tanks by 2014, given that it's almost 2012 and the contract hasn't even been signed.
Then again even UVZ would be hard pressed to meet that deadline. They put out 350 T-90s in 2010. Now they're putting out a lot less T-90s (probably to the tune of 175-250) but they're busy upgrading 200-300 T-72s a year on top of that.
And they don't just want to take deliveries, they want IOC by 2014? Those Leos were a much better bet timeframe wise. Though UVZ could probably rush the order.
Then again even UVZ would be hard pressed to meet that deadline. They put out 350 T-90s in 2010. Now they're putting out a lot less T-90s (probably to the tune of 175-250) but they're busy upgrading 200-300 T-72s a year on top of that.
And they don't just want to take deliveries, they want IOC by 2014? Those Leos were a much better bet timeframe wise. Though UVZ could probably rush the order.
Gadjah Mada
New Member
There was a news in Republika online, where the army chief once again stated the reason to choose Leopard. Other than its cheap price, agreement also said has been reached with Rheinmetal about the possible ToT on maintenance and ammo. The fact that Leo is used by many countries-including Singapore- also become one of the consideration. Publicly also both the army and Mindef said that even after the Netherlands Parliamentary rejection, they still insist to find the other way to get them.
They even did not say anything about other possibility. Even some sources began to open the planning by the army for Leopard was from 1990s.
Seems they would rather to go for the basic plan for only 44 MBT of Leo (if indeed agreement for the second hand MBT from the Dutch cant be realized-then they would after a more expensive ones) than for example 100 T-64 Bulat even though with ToT.
In my opinion, 44 Leo 2 MBT against 100 T-64 Bulat on the battlefield, I will bet for the Leo 2
They even did not say anything about other possibility. Even some sources began to open the planning by the army for Leopard was from 1990s.
Seems they would rather to go for the basic plan for only 44 MBT of Leo (if indeed agreement for the second hand MBT from the Dutch cant be realized-then they would after a more expensive ones) than for example 100 T-64 Bulat even though with ToT.
In my opinion, 44 Leo 2 MBT against 100 T-64 Bulat on the battlefield, I will bet for the Leo 2
Ananda
The Bunker Group
The 2014 dead line is imperative for current administration since that's the end of second term of the present President and he can't run another term period. Thus politically he wants all his administrations to finish the job by 2014, in such Min-Def push every procurement for period up until 2014 must be contracted by 2012 at the latest and operational by 2014 (at the latest).
It's true the Army must prepared more for MBT operations, but the Tanks doctrine is not going to be from Scratch. Few battalions of AMX-13 already have 105 mm gun, thus even AMX-13 is no MBT, but in practice TNI-AD already preparing for MBT doctrine using 105mm AMX-13. Off course it's not perfect, but at least give them preparation for MBT operation.
Volod
New Member
The result will depend on the configuration of the Bulat fire control system ))In my opinion, 44 Leo 2 MBT against 100 T-64 Bulat on the battlefield, I will bet for the Leo 2
Firepower and protection, both tanks are comparable
But the cost of ownership...
Buyer must sign a contract for service with the KMW, or with any country that is part LEOBEN (a kind of club - OBT users Leopard). This satisfaction is also not cheap - for example, the Poland army, received the first batch of Leopards were impressed by the cost of materials and spare parts to them so much that it became one of the reasons for refusal of further procurement of these tanks.
The result of the tender will depend on compromise the interests of the four groups in Indonesia
УкраїнÑький мілітарит
Volod
New Member
AMX-13, even with 105-mm gun - it's just a fire support vehicle, but not MBT
Lightweight, low level of protection ... 14.5 mm machine gun KPVT pierce his armor at a distance of 1 km .. Or antitank rifle of the same caliber. RPG for him worse than an atomic bomb
The point Ananda was trying to make is that perhaps the AMX-13s could have been used to provide troops some with experience in conducting maneuver/flanking operations and practice basic infantry/tank cooperation skills, which is possible regardless of the fact the AMX-13s are not MBTs and are lightly armoured. The AMX-13s and other light armoured vehicles like the Scorpions and Stormers play a vital role in giving the TNI-AD some idea on how to develop an MBT doctrine unique to its operational setting.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
@ Sturm,Thanks for clarifying my point. Just like I said, TNI-AD use (in Principe) the AMX-13 in regards just like western Army operated MBT. Off course they realized for longtime in real combat, AMX-13 can't be treated as same as MBT. However, with AMX-13 they already practice and build operational Tank doctrine (even though will not as perfect if you have MBT).
@ Volod, the Indonesia Army already for some time asked for MBT, but Soeharto (our beloved second dictactor) and if you read my previous posts in this thread, decided not to equipped the Army with MBT for Political concern. In the early 90's, the Army already in the process with the German to get 100 surplus Leopard 1 MBT. However the deal then terminated and the Army got Scorpion (plus the supporting Scorpion based tracked vehicles like stormer etc). The official reason put that the budget was not sufficient for Leopard 1, however unofficially many in here believe because the Soeharto's children and cronies managed to get better deal with Scorpion/Alvis. Thus the deal (if goes through) for this 100 surplus Leo 2, is very reminiscences with previous uncompleted deal for Leo 1. Hopefully this one can be done more transparent.
Sturm, in my previous post no 284 (about 4 days ago) you might found a pictures that you may find interesting. As I recall you once asked whether M-4 Sherman (ex Dutch) was ever been operated by Indonesian Army. I said no, since the records I've managed found show the Dutch only left M-3 Stuart Light Tanks for Indonesian Army. Turns out from this old Pictures that I've found in local forum, they did left some M-4 Sherman, but being operated by the Marines, and not the Army.
@ Volod, the Indonesia Army already for some time asked for MBT, but Soeharto (our beloved second dictactor) and if you read my previous posts in this thread, decided not to equipped the Army with MBT for Political concern. In the early 90's, the Army already in the process with the German to get 100 surplus Leopard 1 MBT. However the deal then terminated and the Army got Scorpion (plus the supporting Scorpion based tracked vehicles like stormer etc). The official reason put that the budget was not sufficient for Leopard 1, however unofficially many in here believe because the Soeharto's children and cronies managed to get better deal with Scorpion/Alvis. Thus the deal (if goes through) for this 100 surplus Leo 2, is very reminiscences with previous uncompleted deal for Leo 1. Hopefully this one can be done more transparent.
Sturm, in my previous post no 284 (about 4 days ago) you might found a pictures that you may find interesting. As I recall you once asked whether M-4 Sherman (ex Dutch) was ever been operated by Indonesian Army. I said no, since the records I've managed found show the Dutch only left M-3 Stuart Light Tanks for Indonesian Army. Turns out from this old Pictures that I've found in local forum, they did left some M-4 Sherman, but being operated by the Marines, and not the Army.
Ananda, very interesting. I wonder if any Shermans were operated against the Permesta rebels in the 1950's? Are there any Shermans in museums and does the Korps Marinir have a museum?
http://ristek.go.id/file/upload/Ref...Paparan Dirut 12082011, HARTEKNAS Serpong.pdf
http://ristek.go.id/file/upload/Ref...eknas2011/Hari III/Jumat pagi/Dirut PT DI.pdf
Two very interesting articles on the product development road maps for PT Pindad and PT DI.
http://ristek.go.id/file/upload/Ref...eknas2011/Hari III/Jumat pagi/Dirut PT DI.pdf
Two very interesting articles on the product development road maps for PT Pindad and PT DI.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
That's the interesting thing about the Pictures, it's an old pictures thus no crop-up, which in turn made the existence of operational M-4 with the marines can be reliable based on the pictures. However so far the record show that for most part in the 50's the Indonesian tanks was M-3 Stuart.
So far no old M-4 being preserved in any function as monument in any museum or exhibition. Just like the existence of M-4 in Indonesian military history seems just vanished. The Marines shares their museum with the Navy Museum in Surabaya, and off course the Armed Forces museum in Jakarta.
My guest is that The Dutch left only small number of M-4, not like M-3 Stuart that they left in considerable number.
The first tank procurement by Indonesian Army after M-3 Stuart left over from the Dutch was AMX-13 in the late 50's and after that PT-76 (which mostly used by the Marines).
Scans of what appears to a local defense magazine on the Panser Anoa with 20mm cannon found on Kaksus (local defense forum)
Mengenal Lebih Dekat Panser Kanon 20mm Pindad - Kaskus - The Largest Indonesian Community
Confirmation that the turret is a Denel LCT20. Looks like it is the upgraded version announced a few months ago by Denel.
http://defenceweb.co.za/index.php?o...grades-lct20-turret-&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105
Mengenal Lebih Dekat Panser Kanon 20mm Pindad - Kaskus - The Largest Indonesian Community
Confirmation that the turret is a Denel LCT20. Looks like it is the upgraded version announced a few months ago by Denel.
http://defenceweb.co.za/index.php?o...grades-lct20-turret-&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Indeed, very intersting. Specially about IPTN, the picture of the CN235MPA for the Navy with winglets (!) and the program DILA (the Cessna 150 type light aircraft) are remarkable. I didn't know anything about these projects. CN235 with winglets....they do not even begun with the CN235NG project, are they?
I doubt it. These are long term plans and the financial position of PT DI has always been rather shaky. With the plans for CN295, it may not make sense to devote resources on another program.