The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Sea Toby]

We tried this way back when with the Type 21's which were cheap, quite pretty and did fine til they got shot at - at which point they could not contribute anything other than acting as a very large decoy for Argentine strike aircraft.

Why would you want to put a Merlin on board one of these patrol craft anyway? Wildcat surely?

We've kicked the "light and cheap" options around before on this thread and the problem is, everyone wants light and cheap but with Harpoon, a hangar, plus a decent radar and some point defence missile system, plus usually Phalanx - by which time you've got something which is 70% of the cost of T26 in about a third of the tonnage.

As far as I understand it, there are still four T22 warm from recent service, so yes, with a wave of the wallet, they could be back out there doing stop gap duties quite easily. They're paid for, with a spares chain already primed, crew trained - while they're more expensive to run than an OPV we already own them - better to run those on for a few more years til the first T26's arrive, and then run T23 on for a bit longer in parallel til the MHPC class arrives.

I understand what you mean about keeping hull numbers up and I actually think there's room for a short buy of about a half dozen OPV ships for the drug and piracy runs, crew of sixty, space for a helo, auto cannon for'ard and some smaller calibre weapons around. I think the Port of Spain's were 150m for the three with support so yeah, buy 'em in and run 'em. If crew costs are an issue, tell the Ghurka's we're recruiting for a marine division. That should put the wind up even the most determined Somali pirate, first time they hear "Ayoh Ghurkali" when they're shinning up an anchor chain...

But the thing that consistently does my head *in* is this "buy something smaller" cry coupled to "with a radar, and a missile system..and and ..."

Ian
Ian

I could not agree more. The cynics want a cheap, small ship with all of the bells and whistles. Unfortunately, they are living in a fantasy, those cheap, small ships don't exist.

The OPVs Trinidad cancelled would make excellent Caribbean patrol OPVs, if not elsewhere, including the UK. The fewer frigates doing constable duties the better.

The British during these dark troubled economic times have to downsize their navy a bit. I would rather have new OPVs without the bells and whistles than nothing. When it comes to a shoot out the British will bring their carrier task force to bear.

 

[Repulse]

We tried this way back when with the Type 21's which were cheap, quite pretty and did fine til they got shot at - at which point they could not contribute anything other than acting as a very large decoy for Argentine strike aircraft.

Why would you want to put a Merlin on board one of these patrol craft anyway? Wildcat surely?

We've kicked the "light and cheap" options around before on this thread and the problem is, everyone wants light and cheap but with Harpoon, a hangar, plus a decent radar and some point defence missile system, plus usually Phalanx - by which time you've got something which is 70% of the cost of T26 in about a third of the tonnage.

As far as I understand it, there are still four T22 warm from recent service, so yes, with a wave of the wallet, they could be back out there doing stop gap duties quite easily. They're paid for, with a spares chain already primed, crew trained - while they're more expensive to run than an OPV we already own them - better to run those on for a few more years til the first T26's arrive, and then run T23 on for a bit longer in parallel til the MHPC class arrives.

I understand what you mean about keeping hull numbers up and I actually think there's room for a short buy of about a half dozen OPV ships for the drug and piracy runs, crew of sixty, space for a helo, auto cannon for'ard and some smaller calibre weapons around. I think the Port of Spain's were 150m for the three with support so yeah, buy 'em in and run 'em. If crew costs are an issue, tell the Ghurka's we're recruiting for a marine division. That should put the wind up even the most determined Somali pirate, first time they hear "Ayoh Ghurkali" when they're shinning up an anchor chain...

But the thing that consistently does my head *in* is this "buy something smaller" cry coupled to "with a radar, and a missile system..and and ..."

Ian





Ian

Ian, I think we agree on a lot of things. Although I used the Khareef as an example which does have a Exocet missiles, for the RN version I would not suggest ASuW missiles fitted (though they could if needed later down the track). The reason why I mention it is that it is built in the UK and is derived from a class already in service. It also has a small VLS which I do think is required. I'm not trying to suggest it is anymore than a minor war vessel.

I'm fine with the Khareef's sensor package but want a mission bay to be able to operate unmanned MCM tools and also store and launch RM amphibious vehicles. I would like it to have a larger hanger so it can operate a commando Merlin or a couple of Wildcats or house UAVs plus a Wildcat. It should be able to comfortably accommodate 60 marines with an overload capacity of a unit company sized. Being able to carry a couple of CB90s would be a good addition. It should also have long legs for endurance (60 days, 9,000nm), probably sacrificing speed.

These would never go anywhere near a hot warzone without an escort. They though would be able to patrol, provide surveillance capabilities, act as MCM motherships and amphibous ships for RMs and would compliment any task force. One of these in every ocean in the world backed up by T45s, upgraded T26s, CVFs and Astutes would be a capability only second to the US, and would give the UK an affordable global presence.

 

[StobieWan]

Thanks to a certain actress, Gurkhas now cost as much as troops recruited in the UK.

Light & cheap works, as long as you don't expect it to be a real warship, & use it only for pirate chasing & the like. So . . . big enough gun to beat anything a pirate or swarms of light boats could carry, a couple of smaller guns, & some soft kill systems in case it's very unlucky. Modest radar, room to carry a Wildcat when more firepower is called for (& with magazines for its weapons), & a platform big enough for something bigger to land on & take off from. If you're really ambitious, mounts for Starstreak (but not usually fitted or carried) or the like, but that would be the absolute limit.

The Danes do it with the Thetis class, but that's heavy & noisy & ice-strengthened. Perfect for the high latitudes job it's designed for, but not ideal for chasing Somali pirates or Caribbean drug smugglers. Armament & sensors along those lines (but a smaller main gun would do) would suit nicely. No pretence of being a warfighting frigate, but can handle constabulary stuff.

That's fine because in a genius move I've just thought of, I'm privatising counter piracy and drug missions, so we'll be recruiting from the existing civilian pool in the UK - and there's a pile of Ghurkas working as car park security and stuff who'd quite like anything more than £7 an hour. Job's a good 'un. It's kind of logical - we're expecting and recommending civilian ships to embark private security, let's go one further and leverage that pool of talent out there.

Seriously, yeah, everything there sounds fine - some sort of stern boat handling arrangements sound sensible. Enough range to self deploy or make the decision to forward base 'em, some scope for cheap UAV facilities (and I mean cheap, just to cover more ground - something that can scoot around and get out there to visually ID targets - I'm not talking Global Hawk ..)

Ian

 

[kev 99]

Ian, I think we agree on a lot of things. Although I used the Khareef as an example which does have a Exocet missiles, for the RN version I would not suggest ASuW missiles fitted (though they could if needed later down the track). The reason why I mention it is that it is built in the UK and is derived from a class already in service. It also has a small VLS which I do think is required. I'm not trying to suggest it is anymore than a minor war vessel.

I'm fine with the Khareef's sensor package but want a mission bay to be able to operate unmanned MCM tools and also store and launch RM amphibious vehicles. I would like it to have a larger hanger so it can operate a commando Merlin or a couple of Wildcats or house UAVs plus a Wildcat. It should be able to comfortably accommodate 60 marines with an overload capacity of a unit company sized. Being able to carry a couple of CB90s would be a good addition. It should also have long legs for endurance (60 days, 9,000nm), probably sacrificing speed.

These would never go anywhere near a hot warzone without an escort. They though would be able to patrol, provide surveillance capabilities, act as MCM motherships and amphibous ships for RMs and would compliment any task force. One of these in every ocean in the world backed up by T45s, upgraded T26s, CVFs and Astutes would be a capability only second to the US, and would give the UK an affordable global presence.

This sounds like it's got everything that a T26 will have except a TAS and ASuW Missiles, but you want it to have a much bigger mission bay and hanger, and you're expecting it to be cheap? that isn't going to happen, in fact I wouldn't expect it to cost that much less than a T26, drop the VLS and the MFR to go with it and you might be in business.

 

[swerve]

I'm fine with the Khareef's sensor package but want a mission bay to be able to operate unmanned MCM tools and also store and launch RM amphibious vehicles. I would like it to have a larger hanger so it can operate a commando Merlin or a couple of Wildcats or house UAVs plus a Wildcat. It should be able to comfortably accommodate 60 marines with an overload capacity of a unit company sized. Being able to carry a couple of CB90s would be a good addition. It should also have long legs for endurance (60 days, 9,000nm), probably sacrificing speed..

You're talking about a much bigger ship than the Khareef class. In fact, it sounds remarkably like Type 26.

 

[StobieWan]

You're talking about a much bigger ship than the Khareef class. In fact, it sounds remarkably like Type 26.

More like an Absolom in some respects, with the launch amphibs thing. Needs a button to turn it into a giant fighting robot and you'd be all the way there I think.

Ian

 

[swerve]

Some of the T26 pictures show a stern ramp for boats such as CB90.

 

[kev 99]

Some of the T26 pictures show a stern ramp for boats such as CB90.

Aren't CB90s a fair bit bigger than the RHIBs that most of the T26 pictures show?

 

[Repulse]

You're talking about a much bigger ship than the Khareef class. In fact, it sounds remarkably like Type 26.

Not sure I am, as I say the Khareef has a small VLS for MBDA MICA, and it can carry helicopters. HMS Clyde is reported to carry a company for short distances, though there is accommodation for 20, I'm not suggesting much different. HMS Protector carries Viking vehicles, so with a bit of deck or storage space (mission bay is not a deal breaker) I think a vessel of this type could also.

 

[StobieWan]

Not sure I am, as I say the Khareef has a small VLS for MBDA MICA, and it can carry helicopters. HMS Clyde is reported to carry a company for short distances, though there is accommodation for 20, I'm not suggesting much different. HMS Protector carries Viking vehicles, so with a bit of deck or storage space (mission bay is not a deal breaker) I think a vessel of this type could also.

Protector is 5Kt though - that's a healthy distance between that and a Khareef.

The Khareef's are also listed as having about half the endurance and range that you're wanting. It's a short legged beast, as are most of the corvettes out there.

If you add up all the parts that you're wanting with the range and payload of a pair of Wildcats or a Merlin, plus the mission bay, you're effectively looking at something the size of a Type 26, at about 5,000 tons.

There's nothing wrong with the Khareef's - they're pretty little ships but they're not blue water ships in terms of range (4,500 miles as opposed to say, the 7-8,000 that the RN would want)

The small, short legged heavily armed corvettes usually get bought by navies with very little else in the fleet and act as capital ships - the Israeli and Swedish efforts look a bit different but they're similar in terms of how much is given over to payload vs range and they all stay close to home.

Basically, non starter technically as the bits you're talking about don't fit into that box.

 

[Repulse]

Protector is 5Kt though - that's a healthy distance between that and a Khareef.

The Khareef's are also listed as having about half the endurance and range that you're wanting. It's a short legged beast, as are most of the corvettes out there.

If you add up all the parts that you're wanting with the range and payload of a pair of Wildcats or a Merlin, plus the mission bay, you're effectively looking at something the size of a Type 26, at about 5,000 tons.

There's nothing wrong with the Khareef's - they're pretty little ships but they're not blue water ships in terms of range (4,500 miles as opposed to say, the 7-8,000 that the RN would want)

The small, short legged heavily armed corvettes usually get bought by navies with very little else in the fleet and act as capital ships - the Israeli and Swedish efforts look a bit different but they're similar in terms of how much is given over to payload vs range and they all stay close to home.

Basically, non starter technically as the bits you're talking about don't fit into that box.

HMS Clyde has the range but not the speed, so I think a similar trade could be made. I'm also sure that by extending the hull could give the space required for a size less than what everyone is suggesting.

I agree that you cannot get a cheap vessel with the capability / capacity of a T26, but I do not agree that there is not a halfway house between a T26 and an OPV in the price bracket I'm suggesting which would give the UK the presence capability it needs.

 

[StobieWan]

Okay - let's talk about that halfway house - what should it do and how much do you want to spend on it?

Here's a starting point - the Navantia BAM, right range, right crew size, hangar and helo deck, medium cal gun at the front, with light cannon and machine guns, facilities to embark up to six ISO containers with various loads like UAV's, soft kill systems, workshops, that sort of thing.

Built in Spanish yards they're coming in at about 100 million.

Bit slow would be my main criticism.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/maritimeactionship/

How much bigger and faster and more heavily armed do you want than that?

Ian

HMS Clyde has the range but not the speed, so I think a similar trade could be made. I'm also sure that by extending the hull could give the space required for a size less than what everyone is suggesting.

I agree that you cannot get a cheap vessel with the capability / capacity of a T26, but I do not agree that there is not a halfway house between a T26 and an OPV in the price bracket I'm suggesting which would give the UK the presence capability it needs.

 

[Sea Toby]

Okay - let's talk about that halfway house - what should it do and how much do you want to spend on it?

Here's a starting point - the Navantia BAM, right range, right crew size, hangar and helo deck, medium cal gun at the front, with light cannon and machine guns, facilities to embark up to six ISO containers with various loads like UAV's, soft kill systems, workshops, that sort of thing.

Built in Spanish yards they're coming in at about 100 million.

Bit slow would be my main criticism.

Buques de Acción MarÃ*tima - Naval Technology

How much bigger and faster and more heavily armed do you want than that?

Ian

Frankly, it doesn't have much more than what Trinidad ordered and cancelled. The Spanish BAM is more or less an OPV/minehunter/hydrographic ship. But the Spanish BAM fits the bill a bit better. Never-the-less the cynics will say it doesn't have SSMs or SAMs. Its the SSMs and SAMs plus their sensors which add weight that reduces endurance significantly in a similar sized vessel as the weight of fuel storage has to be reduced. Of course, the light frigates of the Malaysian Lekiu class is what the cynics want at twice or trice the price.

 

[Repulse]

Okay - let's talk about that halfway house - what should it do and how much do you want to spend on it?

Here's a starting point - the Navantia BAM, right range, right crew size, hangar and helo deck, medium cal gun at the front, with light cannon and machine guns, facilities to embark up to six ISO containers with various loads like UAV's, soft kill systems, workshops, that sort of thing.

Built in Spanish yards they're coming in at about 100 million.

Bit slow would be my main criticism.

Buques de Acción Marítima - Naval Technology

How much bigger and faster and more heavily armed do you want than that?

Ian

I like the BAM, though think that we should be looking UK technology for control management systems, sensors etc: though nothing much beyond what the Clyde has.

However as a baseline, it is pretty close. If money permitted (they have to be £150mn or less), I would:

* lengthen slightly to 100m to improve sea handling and space
* Increase the accommodation capacity to 60 troops
* Allow CB90s to be carried on divots
* Add 2, 6 cell, MICA VLS launchers
* Replace the 2 x 25mm mountings with SIGMA mountings ( MSI - Defence Systems' LTD)

 

[StobieWan]

Frankly, it doesn't have much more than what Trinidad ordered and cancelled. The Spanish BAM is more or less an OPV/minehunter/hydrographic ship. But the Spanish BAM fits the bill a bit better. Never-the-less the cynics will say it doesn't have SSMs or SAMs. Its the SSMs and SAMs plus their sensors which add weight that reduces endurance significantly in a similar sized vessel as the weight of fuel storage has to be reduced. Of course, the light frigates of the Malaysian Lekiu class is what the cynics want at twice or trice the price.

BMT Venator? Telescopic hangar, bags of flexibility...seems to be nearer to 3Kt but very modular.

 

[Hambo]

Repulse, "I want to see the RN focused on providing a global maritime presence by 2030-2040. This means having a ship in every ocean of the world and patrolling our global EEZs. "

Repulse, exactly why do you want to see an RN ship in every ocean of the world? What is the actual purpose and gain of doing this? Does having a lightly armed patrol vessel bobbing around in international waters in the Pacific or India Ocean actually contribute to UK Plc. Will the democracies of the far east look in awe at the might of the RN and buy British goods because a patrol boat steams 100 miles off shore?

Anti piracy is an international mission and personally I think having an expensive warship chasing drug runners does very little to influence drug availability and demand at home.

I want high end escorts, as many as we can get without wasting money on less capable ships, its all about high end warfighters and a carrier acting as the big overhand right punch. A carrier, strike aircraft, AEW, top spec AAW and ASW and a few SSN's turn up and duff up the bag guy in the role of bad cop, rather than filling the navy up with the nautical equivalent of a PCSO.

 

[Repulse]

Repulse, "I want to see the RN focused on providing a global maritime presence by 2030-2040. This means having a ship in every ocean of the world and patrolling our global EEZs. "

Repulse, exactly why do you want to see an RN ship in every ocean of the world? What is the actual purpose and gain of doing this? Does having a lightly armed patrol vessel bobbing around in international waters in the Pacific or India Ocean actually contribute to UK Plc. Will the democracies of the far east look in awe at the might of the RN and buy British goods because a patrol boat steams 100 miles off shore?

Anti piracy is an international mission and personally I think having an expensive warship chasing drug runners does very little to influence drug availability and demand at home.

I want high end escorts, as many as we can get without wasting money on less capable ships, its all about high end warfighters and a carrier acting as the big overhand right punch. A carrier, strike aircraft, AEW, top spec AAW and ASW and a few SSN's turn up and duff up the bag guy in the role of bad cop, rather than filling the navy up with the nautical equivalent of a PCSO.

Because in every ocean we have either a dependency or a strategic interest. Front line presence gives us capabilities to monitor and possibly help prevent conflicts before they arise. Sure the capability of a single light frigate is limited (i would love it if we had the money for more), but they would double up to offer MCM and survey capabilities also.

Remember that I would still have high end escorts, SSNs and CVFs; the point is to focus them where required and have a big stick when needed. In reality we are talking about sacrificing the 5 GP T26s in return for a smaller number of higher spec first rate vessels and more vessels overall.

 

[Hambo]

Because in every ocean we have either a dependency or a strategic interest. Front line presence gives us capabilities to monitor and possibly help prevent conflicts before they arise. Sure the capability of a single light frigate is limited (i would love it if we had the money for more), but they would double up to offer MCM and survey capabilities also.

Remember that I would still have high end escorts, SSNs and CVFs; the point is to focus them where required and have a big stick when needed. In reality we are talking about sacrificing the 5 GP T26s in return for a smallee number of higher spec vessels and more vessels overall.

But in reality even ten patrol boats would only cover a minute fracture of the ocean, which of our dependencies are at such a threat that we could not deal in other ways eg fly in a few troops for the odd exercise? How much monitoring does a limited spec'd ship allow and its more expensive than a man on the ground at an embassy keeping an ear out. Possibly prevent conflicts? Possibly prevent the odd ship being boarded but much more?

With the navy potentially reduced to 29,000 , you are going to have 10 small ships complements , so at a guestimate 600 highly trained men and women, and that's a significant number, in ships that will have to run from a decent foe rather than form part of a task force against a high end threat.

If you allow politicians to reduce the number of proper warships to fund a fleet of patrol boats you will disproportionately weaken the RNs ability to fight wars, plenty of peacekeeping and flag waving yes, but less overall lethality , and thats what the RN should be about. If anything we would have less global influence amongst our allies.

 

[StobieWan]

Been down this route before with the Type 21's though - light yacht built 2500 tonners criticised as being underarmed from the moment they entered service, did a fine job for the work required but when called to arms in the Falklands, served as little more than floating targets - no decent air defence, no scope for upgrades and not very survivable.

Thing is, if you swap the 5 GP type 26's out for say, 10 of these puppies, that's pretty much the MHPC buy soaked up. Or do you want to fund that too and have twenty odd not very combat worthy OPV's flitting around ?

I think you're gutting the RN to fulfil an imaginary requirement. There's no need whatsoever for us to be enforcing Pax Brittanica, the 21st century happened and we're living in it. Why are we pretending to be the global policeman when we're so greatly reduced in standing?

Strip out the GP type 26's and you're pulling the RN in two opposite directions leaving a very hollow middle.

Ian

 

[Repulse]

But in reality even ten patrol boats would only cover a minute fracture of the ocean, which of our dependencies are at such a threat that we could not deal in other ways eg fly in a few troops for the odd exercise? How much monitoring does a limited spec'd ship allow and its more expensive than a man on the ground at an embassy keeping an ear out. Possibly prevent conflicts? Possibly prevent the odd ship being boarded but much more?

With the navy potentially reduced to 29,000 , you are going to have 10 small ships complements , so at a guestimate 600 highly trained men and women, and that's a significant number, in ships that will have to run from a decent foe rather than form part of a task force against a high end threat.

If you allow politicians to reduce the number of proper warships to fund a fleet of patrol boats you will disproportionately weaken the RNs ability to fight wars, plenty of peacekeeping and flag waving yes, but less overall lethality , and thats what the RN should be about. If anything we would have less global influence amongst our allies.

I'm sure the same argument was made when the government decided to remove the Falklands guard ship. Flying a few troops around the world is sometimes possible given that you have an airfield available, but hardly is cost effective nor does it give presence. By having a ship on station allows for local understanding to be developed and also a measured approach to an escalating issue before the big guns are drafted in. The reach of a ship with helicopters and UAVs is far beyond it's radar. It is also as much about humanitarian relief than war fighting.

This is not about engaging in the world through starry colonial eyes on the cheap. This about recognizing we need to engage and interact with all of the world and that we have global interests and responsibilities.

What would these ships be doing today you ask:
* North Atlantic: anti-drugs, anti-terrorism and surveying.
* Caribbean: Anti drugs
* Med: Gibraltar EEZ protection, surveillance and possible evacuation of civilians during the ongoing troubles
* South Atlantic: Falklands EEZ protection and anti piracy on the west coast of Africa.
* Indian Ocean: Anti-piracy, surveillance, surveying and anti terrorism.
* Gulf: Surveillance and MCM
* Far East: Humanitarian relief, surveying and assisting Brunei in EEZ protection.

Which of these warrant a first rate warship? How many of these could we do with the current T26 / MHPC plans?


I understand the point you are making about the danger of drawing funds away from the top end. But the reality is that without doing that the RN will be seen as increasingly irrelevant and funds / numbers will be cut anyway. Everyone seems to be putting their eggs in the T26 basket. I strongly believe it will be the fudge of momentous proportions with both the capability and numbers being cut leaving just 6 real first rate (go anywhere) ships.

What I am proposing is as well as building these light frigates (which will fufil the MHPC role also), we increase the budget for the 8 ASW by a third to make them proper first raters. In the future the RN should be going for a single first rate design rather than trying to have seperate ASW / AAW ones.