The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[spsun100001]

Besides, these are Spanish ships, out fishing under license granted by the FI company. Technically, I'd suggest the Spanish could always pop down and pitch in eh?

Ian

They even have a carrier!

Seriously though, I imagine boats would stop coming or the prices the Falklands could ask for the fishing licences would drop dramatically. Either way, I could see it being something that would cause us a problem that, whilst not threatening anything as dramatic as the economy of the islands, could be a constant irritant and a drain on the RN's resources.

 

[StobieWan]

They even have a carrier!

Seriously though, I imagine boats would stop coming or the prices the Falklands could ask for the fishing licences would drop dramatically. Either way, I could see it being something that would cause us a problem that, whilst not threatening anything as dramatic as the economy of the islands, could be a constant irritant and a drain on the RN's resources.

Ah, but if it keeps the guardship in place, and reminds the government that they need to maintain a presence down there, then it's probably saving a lot worse. Remember, the last time this thing blew up in our face, was during some of the most severe defence cuts in living history and was in part provoked by the Argentinians misreading us retiring the only naval presence down there.

If they keep poking us in the eye and we keep sending down a fully armed Type 23, I'd say we all know where we stand and that's saving lives ?

Ian

 

[Repulse]

I thought the Falkland Islands were looking to fund another OPV? (can't remember where I read it...)

In my view leasing one or two additional Clyde V2s would not be a bad investment at the moment as the MHPC replacement seems to be being pushed to the right.

 

[Repulse]

Remember that the Protector and Scott are also regularly in that area and could offer help if and when required.



The other River vessels are smaller than HMS Clyde, lacking things like the helipad, and are not designed for operations in the South Atlantic like it is. Besides the three they have at home are already so overworked I doubt they would get one free to do that. Maybe a minehunter though, they have 30mm cannons, and could double up as a emergency patrol boat if needed. We've done that in the Gulf before, as have other nations.

Could a mine hunter operate effectively in the South Atlantic?

Interestingly, in the falklands war, the RN operated trawlers taken from trade for MCM operations (like HMS Cordella, http://www.tca2000.co.uk/CORDELLA.HTM)

 

[1805]

I'm actually campaigning for the equivalent of Godwin's law to be applied to RN discussions - not sure if you're familiar with Godwin's law but it applied to the tendency of anyone in internet debate to end up calling someone a Nazi, and by implication, it's come to mean you're out of ideas and have lost the argument.

In terms of carriers, I'd suggest that the second you fall back on "what if we need to retake the Falklands Islands" as an argument in favour of carriers, you've lost the argument.

There's bags of healthy sensible reasons for a modern sea faring nation to want fixed wing carrier strike, but taking some Islands 7,000 miles away from a 2nd world power isn't it - if we lost the Islands this time around, we deserve to be sent home for an early bath and no supper before bedtime.

Ian

Admin. deleted as not self edited within 24hrs. It was unneccessary and was inflammatory and considered disproportionate to the above.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Seriously, some of you people should know better.

You've been on here long enough to know whats expected and how to play nice with each other.

Get your act together and do some self moderation within the next 24hrs before the Mod Team does it for you.

Play nice


don't PM the Mods in protest, just fix it.

 

[swerve]

I recall the first will be with a ski ramp, and the second will have EMALs catapults. Eventually the British would like to retrofit the EMALs to the first carrier. And it appears the British will be buying at least enough F-35C aircraft for one carrier, hopefully both carriers.

Officially, no decision has been taken on which one will initially be fitted with EMALS, & how the first one will be completed. Negotiations are currently underway between the government & the builders on the design changes. The block building system means that its possible to introduce design changes to the deck, relatively late in construction.

It seems unlikely that either of them will have a ski-jump, & it's certainly not been announced that one will.

 

[StobieWan]

Officially, no decision has been taken on which one will initially be fitted with EMALS, & how the first one will be completed. Negotiations are currently underway between the government & the builders on the design changes. The block building system means that its possible to introduce design changes to the deck, relatively late in construction.

It seems unlikely that either of them will have a ski-jump, & it's certainly not been announced that one will.

It'd be a relief if that were the case - I'd hate to think of the first in class going into the waters with a great big ramp stuck to the front for no good reason. Ideally, both to be completed as angle decks, ready for cat and trap. It's frustrating to have so little information in terms of which is to be fitted out - but I believe ISD for F35C is 2018 now? So, we'd have no jets available in any event?

Ian

 

[overlander]

Navy will be 'too small for two carriers'
25 November 2011


The UK will "certainly" not be able to operate both Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers in 2020 if the Royal Navy is reduced to 29,000 personnel in line with current planning, the head of the Royal Navy has said.

First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope, speaking at a Henry Jackson Society event on 24 November, said that manpower was one of his most "significant concerns" regarding the future of the navy.

Current navy assumptions will see the second-in-class aircraft carrier fitted with catapults and arrestor wire ready to operate the F-35C Joint Strike Fighter carrier variant in 2020, but the fate of HMS Queen Elizabeth, which will launch first and be used to train crews in handling HMS Prince of Wales, is less certain.

"There's a people issue here," said Admiral Stanhope. "I don't have enough people in a 29,000 navy to operate two aircraft carriers."

The First Sea Lord said the navy's top priority at the moment was modelling how to reduce manpower to targeted levels by 2020 whilst delivering the Full Spectrum Capability demanded by Future Force 2020 plans.

"We in the Navy have one of the most complicated tasks because we deliver a competency across the air, sea and land interface," he said. "Royal Marines, FAA pilots, submariners, frigate drivers, mine countermeasures, all of these carry specific levels of competency and you've got to make sure you've got enough to be able to feed the machine that's using them," he said.

"It's a very, very complicated business and one that we're putting a great deal of effort in to make sure that we retain the critical mass within the service to generate full spectrum capability. And I seek full spectrum capability because that allows the UK to act independently should it have to in the event of special circumstances.

"Delivering that capability with a number which will be 29,000 people in 2020 is a concern, and we've got to get this modelling absolutely right. And who we make, regrettably, redundant, and who we allow to voluntarily be redundant is a critical feature of that modelling; absolutely core to naval business at the moment."

Current planning assumptions will see HMS Queen Elizabeth put to sea in 2016, Admiral Stanhope said.

"It will, as a first of class vessel have two, if not three years of trials, we will be operating the biggest warship we have ever operated in this country and therefore there will be a protracted period of trials during which the Prince of Wales build continues.

"We will sort out all the challenges that a new class of vessel bring along and we will operate that ship effectively by the time Prince of Wales comes out such that at that moment we will transfer the crew to the Prince of Wales, all qualified to operate that type of ship. You just then have six months' worth of new ship trials and we then get straight on to the fixed wing piece of the jigsaw.

"That would leave a Queen Elizabeth question mark," he said. "There's a people issue here, I don't have enough people in a 29,000 navy to operate two aircraft carriers. There's the issue with regards to the landing platform helicopter requirements, which provide littoral manoeuvre for commando forces. Could it be used for that? Could we, if the pressures were such, then go and re-refit Queen Elizabeth to take catapults and traps – which is within the feasible. I don't know.

"It is ambiguous but, given the people, we certainly can't use both."

A Ministry of Defence Spokesperson said: "The Strategic Defence & Security Review made clear that the Royal Navy will operate one aircraft carrier, not two."

Navy will be 'too small for two carriers' - Defence Management

 

[Vanguard]

I thought the Falkland Islands were looking to fund another OPV? (can't remember where I read it...)

In my view leasing one or two additional Clyde V2s would not be a bad investment at the moment as the MHPC replacement seems to be being pushed to the right.

There are three Port of Spain class (This is the next size up in the BAe OPV series) units that were built for Trinidad and Tobago that were not delivered and are laid up somewhere, the potential was to look at buying one of them as they are ready built and could be purchased for the cost of a new Clyde, getting a quicker delivery and more ship for their money. The Port of Spain is also listed as a corvette because it can be fitted with missiles if required which could be an option for the Navy who probably have the spare Harpoon launchers to fit it out.

 

[Systems Adict]

There are three Port of Spain class (This is the next size up in the BAe OPV series) units that were built for Trinidad and Tobago that were not delivered and are laid up somewhere.....

Hmmm... Next size up from BAE OPV ??? WHERE did you get this snippet ??
(...BTW, is THIS a BAE OPV ??)

Nakhoda Ragam Class - Naval Technology

Just to clarify, THESE weren't BAE ships, they were VT's & are based on the Clyde design. BAE just happened to buy-out VT, when they decided not to build ships anymore...

River Class - Naval Technology

...& FYI, they are currently based in the RN Naval base at Portsmouth.

... the potential was to look at buying one of them as they are ready built and could be purchased for the cost of a new Clyde, getting a quicker delivery and more ship for their money.

I'm assuming that THIS is where you base your facts about costs ??
Warship Costs « New Wars

... The Port of Spain is also listed as a corvette because it can be fitted with missiles if required which could be an option for the Navy who probably have the spare Harpoon launchers to fit it out.

From what I know of the Port of Spain & her 2 sisters, they WERE NEVER DESIGNED to have any missiles.

To fit a missile system such as Harpoon, would require a complete refit of the foredeck, to remove the ships main gun & probably mean redesigning the whole front end of the ship to add additional space & structural strengthening, to take the weight / forces from firing missiles.

I think that that would be foolish & extremely expensive, as although you say the ship is listed as a corvette, it is an OPV & doesn't have the facilities to have even a small missile system like Sea Sparrow fitted.

Finally, It might be helpful to research some information from other sites, such as google or Wikipedia, to learn more about the subject matter...

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Surface_Ships"]BAE Systems Surface Ships - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Spain_class_corvette"]Port of Spain class corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Trinidad And Tobago Ships Sail Ahead - BAE Systems

SA

 

[Repulse]

There are three Port of Spain class (This is the next size up in the BAe OPV series) units that were built for Trinidad and Tobago that were not delivered and are laid up somewhere, the potential was to look at buying one of them as they are ready built and could be purchased for the cost of a new Clyde, getting a quicker delivery and more ship for their money. The Port of Spain is also listed as a corvette because it can be fitted with missiles if required which could be an option for the Navy who probably have the spare Harpoon launchers to fit it out.

I have often wondered if BAE have offered these to the RN, and the other ships they've failed to sale. Not sure the Port of Spain class is suitable for the south Atlantic, but if it is (or could be cheaply made so) I am in all favour of getting all three; sending one to the falklands, another to the Caribbean and the other to Gibraltar...

The RN should not shy away from these vessels in fear of a reduced T26 order (that will happen anyway). For one T26 you could buy 6-8 OPVs or even 3 of the newer BAE Corvettes (light frigates). The RN needs a core of high end / go any where escorts with a balanced fleet of light frigates in my view...

 

[Vanguard]

Hmmm... Next size up from BAE OPV ??? WHERE did you get this snippet ??
(...BTW, is THIS a BAE OPV ??)

Nakhoda Ragam Class - Naval Technology

Just to clarify, THESE weren't BAE ships, they were VT's & are based on the Clyde design. BAE just happened to buy-out VT, when they decided not to build ships anymore...

River Class - Naval Technology

...& FYI, they are currently based in the RN Naval base at Portsmouth.

I was basing that statement of this page on the BAe website. I was under the impression that the River-Clyde-PoS were all from the same series that were developed by VT (Who built the River/Clyde class) and then taken over by BAe who now offer it on their product list and have subsequently exported it to Thailand (Although preliminary negotiations may have started before Oct 2009 I’m not 100% sure on that).

The Nakhoda Ragam is from the F2000 Series no? Which included Malaysia’s frigates, this was replaced by the Khareef Class corvette on their range (The Khareef being taken on from VT too) and has not been offered since ~2006 when they offered Malaysia another two I believe. The exception being the already built corvettes that they have tried to offload.

Thank you for that snippet, I was fairly confident that they were at one of the naval bases but wasn’t sure which one.

I'm assuming that THIS is where you base your facts about costs ??

Not in this case, I do occasionally use it to gain sources, I was running off something I hear awhile back, and have seen in some media sources as has been mentioned by some others here, that there was the potential for a deal involving the British government taking them on, obviously at a reduced price due to BAe’s eagerness to get rid of them possibly involving an arrangement where they would give them at such a price if they were given the contract to refit them to whatever specification may be required for the Royal Navy’s intended role be it the Falklands, Caribbean or whatever.

From what I know of the Port of Spain & her 2 sisters, they WERE NEVER DESIGNED to have any missiles.

To fit a missile system such as Harpoon, would require a complete refit of the foredeck, to remove the ships main gun & probably mean redesigning the whole front end of the ship to add additional space & structural strengthening, to take the weight / forces from firing missiles.

I think that that would be foolish & extremely expensive, as although you say the ship is listed as a corvette, it is an OPV & doesn't have the facilities to have even a small missile system like Sea Sparrow fitted.

Finally, It might be helpful to research some information from other sites, such as google or Wikipedia, to learn more about the subject matter...

That may be so; I know for the River and Clyde classes it definitely was. I was assuming that it would perhaps be similar to some available OPVs that are pre-built to potentially hold missiles with more minimal modifications, I would have thought that this would have been the case with this class as BAe/VT have a range of other similarly sized vessels which are loosely related to each other and they have a keenness to make each design fit a variety of roles – especially seeing as this vessel has a lot of additional capabilities, i.e. the capacity to take a platoon of troops on short range voyages, that it could perhaps carry a small system with the potential to lose out on those areas. In the absence of a concrete source though for this particular line of ships I’ll hold off on saying it definitely until such a time.


I would agree though it would be a foolish endeavour especially if it drops out on the additional capacities such as the ability to carry troops which could be useful in a variety of cases for the British. A embarked Marine boarding team for example would greatly improve the vessel’s capacity to engage a vessel or be it from a different angle.

I have often wondered if BAE have offered these to the RN, and the other ships they've failed to sale. Not sure the Port of Spain class is suitable for the south Atlantic, but if it is (or could be cheaply made so) I am in all favour of getting all three; sending one to the falklands, another to the Caribbean and the other to Gibraltar...

The RN should not shy away from these vessels in fear of a reduced T26 order (that will happen anyway). For one T26 you could buy 6-8 OPVs or even 3 of the newer BAE Corvettes (light frigates). The RN needs a core of high end / go any where escorts with a balanced fleet of light frigates in my view...

It may need some heating/air-conditioning reforms although I would expect a general internal refit to take place whoever takes them on as you have to fit appropriate communications systems etc. I would probably see a more realistic deployment plan of two in the Caribbean and one down in the Falklands as it would offer the capacity of having at least one vessel on patrol at a time and the other in port. Having them permanently based in the Caribbean, crewed by locals from the Caymans or similar, could also reduce the need for the permanent frigate (& auxiliary) deployment there outside of the hurricane season.

I am actually surprised they have not looked at kitting at least one of these up for the South Atlantic seeing as HMS Clyde is returning to Britain next year for its scheduled refit, times are probably too tense at the moment to risk it with just the frigate/destroyer, auxiliary and Protector/Scott so it will be interesting to see what they do, especially with such a limited frigate/destroyer fleet that could cause issues with sending a second down there.

 

[StobieWan]

I have often wondered if BAE have offered these to the RN, and the other ships they've failed to sale. Not sure the Port of Spain class is suitable for the south Atlantic, but if it is (or could be cheaply made so) I am in all favour of getting all three; sending one to the falklands, another to the Caribbean and the other to Gibraltar...

The RN should not shy away from these vessels in fear of a reduced T26 order (that will happen anyway). For one T26 you could buy 6-8 OPVs or even 3 of the newer BAE Corvettes (light frigates). The RN needs a core of high end / go any where escorts with a balanced fleet of light frigates in my view...

I disagree intensely - the T26 order has to be preserved in order to keep the escort numbers right to support carrier ops etc. I'd welcome expansion of the mine countermeasures replacement to bring numbers up later but eroding T26 is dangerous. Additionally, a lot of the capital cost of the T26 is being made in the refurb of T23 - Artisan, CAMM, 2087, that sort of thing.

If you're wanting to bring numbers up, keep the Type 22's on for the ten more years they're good for..

Ian

 

[StobieWan]

And in any event

Brazil could buy the 3 BAE System's OPV that were canceled by Trinidad and Tobago


Looks like they're going to Brazil.

 

[overlander]

And in any event

Brazil could buy the 3 BAE System's OPV that were canceled by Trinidad and Tobago


Looks like they're going to Brazil.

Normal, the honourable british politicians they want to spend as less as possible in defence, sad.

 

[StobieWan]

Normal, the honourable british politicians they want to spend as less as possible in defence, sad.

These are ships that were built for Trinidad and Tobago, the deal went south and they've been sitting around for two or three years doing nothing. This has nothing to do with UK defence or defence spending - this is an export order by BAE.

Please stop trolling on the RN thread, it's just been unlocked and I'd like to keep it that way...

Ian

 

[Repulse]

I disagree intensely - the T26 order has to be preserved in order to keep the escort numbers right to support carrier ops etc. I'd welcome expansion of the mine countermeasures replacement to bring numbers up later but eroding T26 is dangerous. Additionally, a lot of the capital cost of the T26 is being made in the refurb of T23 - Artisan, CAMM, 2087, that sort of thing.

If you're wanting to bring numbers up, keep the Type 22's on for the ten more years they're good for..

Ian

I understand where you are coming from but the T22s are now history. Also, by all reports MHPC timescales are still moving to the right so it is valid to talk about stop gaps.

I want to see the RN focused on providing a global maritime presence by 2030-2040. This means having a ship in every ocean of the world and patrolling our global EEZs. 19 escorts is not enough. With 7.4 bn reportably the budget for the T26 and MHPC the RN could buy:

* 8 upgraded T26s with TLAM and extended hanger space for two Merlins (600 mn a piece)
* 16 upgraded light presence / patrol frigates based on an extended Khareef class with extended range, hanger space for a Merlin, mission bay and space for 60 RMs. (150mn a piece)

With the 6 T45s, this could provide as many as 5-6 'first rate' and 6-7 'second rate' presence frigates on active duty at one time.

 

[StobieWan]

I understand where you are coming from but the T22s are now history. Also, by all reports MHPC timescales are still moving to the right so it is valid to talk about stop gaps.

I want to see the RN focused on providing a global maritime presence by 2030-2040. This means having a ship in every ocean of the world and patrolling our global EEZs. 19 escorts is not enough. With 7.4 bn reportably the budget for the T26 and MHPC the RN could buy:

* 8 upgraded T26s with TLAM and extended hanger space for two Merlins (600 mn a piece)
* 16 upgraded light presence / patrol frigates based on an extended Khareef class with extended range, hanger space for a Merlin, mission bay and space for 60 RMs. (150mn a piece)

With the 6 T45s, this could provide as many as 5-6 'first rate' and 6-7 'second rate' presence frigates on active duty at one time.

We tried this way back when with the Type 21's which were cheap, quite pretty and did fine til they got shot at - at which point they could not contribute anything other than acting as a very large decoy for Argentine strike aircraft.

Why would you want to put a Merlin on board one of these patrol craft anyway? Wildcat surely?

We've kicked the "light and cheap" options around before on this thread and the problem is, everyone wants light and cheap but with Harpoon, a hangar, plus a decent radar and some point defence missile system, plus usually Phalanx - by which time you've got something which is 70% of the cost of T26 in about a third of the tonnage.

As far as I understand it, there are still four T22 warm from recent service, so yes, with a wave of the wallet, they could be back out there doing stop gap duties quite easily. They're paid for, with a spares chain already primed, crew trained - while they're more expensive to run than an OPV we already own them - better to run those on for a few more years til the first T26's arrive, and then run T23 on for a bit longer in parallel til the MHPC class arrives.

I understand what you mean about keeping hull numbers up and I actually think there's room for a short buy of about a half dozen OPV ships for the drug and piracy runs, crew of sixty, space for a helo, auto cannon for'ard and some smaller calibre weapons around. I think the Port of Spain's were 150m for the three with support so yeah, buy 'em in and run 'em. If crew costs are an issue, tell the Ghurka's we're recruiting for a marine division. That should put the wind up even the most determined Somali pirate, first time they hear "Ayoh Ghurkali" when they're shinning up an anchor chain...

But the thing that consistently does my head *in* is this "buy something smaller" cry coupled to "with a radar, and a missile system..and and ..."

Ian





Ian

 

[swerve]

Thanks to a certain actress, Gurkhas now cost as much as troops recruited in the UK.

Light & cheap works, as long as you don't expect it to be a real warship, & use it only for pirate chasing & the like. So . . . big enough gun to beat anything a pirate or swarms of light boats could carry, a couple of smaller guns, & some soft kill systems in case it's very unlucky. Modest radar, room to carry a Wildcat when more firepower is called for (& with magazines for its weapons), & a platform big enough for something bigger to land on & take off from. If you're really ambitious, mounts for Starstreak (but not usually fitted or carried) or the like, but that would be the absolute limit.

The Danes do it with the Thetis class, but that's heavy & noisy & ice-strengthened. Perfect for the high latitudes job it's designed for, but not ideal for chasing Somali pirates or Caribbean drug smugglers. Armament & sensors along those lines (but a smaller main gun would do) would suit nicely. No pretence of being a warfighting frigate, but can handle constabulary stuff.