Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[ADMk2]

Get back in your box, this is an open forum discussing relevant issues of concern to us all. None off us like hearing or reading about soldiers killed by their own side, it's the ultimate betrayal. That does not preclude us discussing ways to avoid such incidences occuring in the future.

Having some learning difficulties aren't you? This is the second time now you've decided to preach to all and sundry about what they can do and what they can't do.

If you were on the ground there, and you knew the procedures and force protection measures in place perhaps it might be fair enough.

But you aren't. You don't and you are doing nothing but gobbing off. Again. Enjoy your holiday.

 

[Raven22]

Thank you for that insightful response, but the idea of keeping a keen eye on the indigenous groups you are training to ensure they aren't about to turn rogue, or at least try and pick up the signs early is not new.

I don't think you quite understand what is meant by mentoring. It is hardly just a couple of Aussies standing in front of an ANA company giving the odd lesson. You live, eat, sleep, fight and sometimes die alongside each other. If an ANA soldier is hell bent on a suicide attack, he is going to succeed.

It is routine for a couple of Aussies to be alone with an ANA platoon in the field. It is routine for an Aussie to walk alone among hundreds of ANA in their compound. Any measures such as the ones you suggest will have the opposite effect to that which you propose - it will reduce the trust between the ANA and the mentors, and make attacks such as this more likely.

Either way, I have no interest in getting advice from you.

 

[justsomeaussie]

Well said ^^

 

[StevoJH]

Wouldn't the biggest worry in a situation like this be that the Afghan soldiers lose their trust in their fellow ANA soldiers that they are fighting alongside?

I assume it would take more then 1-2 crazy/PTSD cases for that to occur though

 

[winnyfield]

The Canadian mentoring perspective: (there's little insight from the Australian media)

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5LUhmfSxMw"]Desert Lions: Canadian Forces Mentors in Kandahar - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[Prosper]

Very sad to hear about another rogue Afghan soldier shooting in the Australian camp. This possibly cannot come at a worst time 6 days after the death of 3 Australian troops in similar circumstances.

I hope that all 3 soldiers will make a speedy recover (as well as the two Afghan soldiers) and that the relationship between the two forces will overcome this setback and remain as constructive as before.

A couple of questions for anyone in the know:

1. Are any other international forces are experiencing similar problems of rogue Afghan soldiers making these random attacks?
2. Were there similar occurrences in previous conflicts such as the Vietnam war where Australian troops were mentoring the South Vietnamese forces?

thanks

 

[hairyman]

2 very good questions. I would also like to know the answer to both. I cant recall similar occurrences in Vietnam, but then it is a long time ago now.

 

[t68]

The AATTV list casualties as 33 killed 122 wounded, it does not go into the exact circumstance for those killed whist a member for the team. Not all members where KIA.

Australian Army Training Team Vietnam | Australian War Memorial

http://www.army.gov.au/ahu/docs/The_Australian_Army_and_the_Vietnam_War_Hartley.pdf

 

[Abraham Gubler]

1. Are any other international forces are experiencing similar problems of rogue Afghan soldiers making these random attacks?

Yes. It’s a big problem for everyone living in the third world. Lots of guns, lots of ‘honour’, lots of idiots.

2. Were there similar occurrences in previous conflicts such as the Vietnam war where Australian troops were mentoring the South Vietnamese forces?

No. The mission of the AATTV and current mentoring are completely different. AATTV would place an officer or senior NCO in the HQ of SVN companies and battalions. The mentoring sees a company placed in an Afghani battalion, battalion in brigade, etc.

I know in the current ‘blame game’ driven society it is compelling to instantly find conspiracy driven fault and make massive leaps of speculation on the flimsiest of evidence. But please back off on this and let real facts emerge. This is far more likely just to be a copy cat activity than some kind of natural state of affairs.

 

[Prosper]

The AATTV list casualties as 33 killed 122 wounded, it does not go into the exact circumstance for those killed whist a member for the team. Not all members where KIA.

Thanks

I have no interest in contributing to speculations and just only hope that the Australian mentoring force can get past the two terrible tragedies and seek comfort in the knowledge that the majority of Afghans appreciate the efforts of the ADF to bring peace and prosperity to their country (well I hope they show appreciation to the soldiers anyway).

 

[t68]

I learnt some interesting facts about the old humble Australian no.5 ½ ton trailer; i never thought to use it as a bath tub or a dinghy!!

Australian Military Trailers for Land-Rovers -REMLR

extract from site.

PS: "Your tax dollars at work" - the No 5 is able to be used as a bath when filled with water, and as a water carrier/tank when fitted with the rubber bladder and hand pump (late 1960's). Some No 5 trailers have had the rear panel cut 'n shut to make a tailgate that drops down and acts as a ramp when the drawbar is elevated... And the award for the most unusual application for the No 5 is--(drumroll)--as a makeshift dinghy! When empty jerry cans are lashed to the drawbar, servicemen can row it - or even use a portable outboard on the rear of the trailer...
Intrigued, we searched the internet and found more interesting news about the good ol' No 5...


(notes from Janes Navy Annual)
In summary, the freeboard is adequate, but the draft--and the "Bar Treads" acting like twin keels-- limit performance to less than 15 knots. A recent RAN appraisal of this design created a stir after extensive 'in theatre' trials conducted off Jervis Bay. It concluded that sea use would be hazardous without the mandatory additions to the CES such as navigation lights, bilge pump, EPIRB, life jackets, etc. In another part it said that neither battleship grey or olive drab had showed any comparitive advantage regarding anti-fouling and anti-corrosion of the No 5 hull. The real meat of the report, however, remains classified at ADI. RAN rumours are circulating that the No 5 appraisals off Jervis Bay, conducted with the participation of the majority of the RAN fleet, revealed hitherto unknown advantages of this trailer-dinghy design. Guided "x" class torpedoes were evaded by 7 out of ten of the trial half-ton trailers on the exercise. In addition, the rumour mill has it that in the first month of the trials, a RAN Captain's resignation was hushed up after a Collins class sub blithely surfaced at night under a lone "SAS modded" No 5 and returned to port with it lodged on the comms tower. This was reputedly the "serendipity" incident that explains how the RAN happened onto the advantage of the No 5's low radar profile. Hence covert RAN long-range Orion deployment by parachute would seem to be a likely and obvious outcome of this No 5 development.

 

[t68]

It appears when the US President Barack Obama comes to town their will be an announcement with the PM, no new expansion to the base according to this news item.

My guess is it is just the start see how a small rotation adjust to the environment then expanded from there.Dont think the top end will mind the extra dollars to roll into town.

US Marine base for Darwin

I don’t think the Chinese will react too harshly, a it is just an extension on mutual defence relations between the US-Aust, you can actually say that the US is protecting Chinese access to raw materials in the future.

 

[treehuggingaj]

Mrh

Mayday call for helicopters as defence project added to list of shame | Courier Mail

Old news really. Rhetoric for the brass has been something along the lines of "MRH is coming, get used to it". Hopefully once the teething problems are sorted out we will have state of the art battlefield helos.

 

[Navor86]

Moin,
is the current plan to establish the Amphib capability within 3 RAR just a short time measure? I mean will this new focus on Amphibious Warfare eventually lead to the establishing of another Infantry Bn or even a more specialised Brigade?
Im aware of Plan Beersheba and the proposed Structure but wouldnt this ARG need some more specialiesed "force multipliers", like dedicated CSS, Armored/Boat support (Amtracs/Light Assault Boats)?

Will this whole development actually lead to an "evolved" participation/ re.structuring of the RAN Clearance Divers? According to this site (Branch Structure) the main tasks are EOD,Counter Mine and Repair Operations and IIRC beach recon.
But wouldnt it be necesarry to establish something more along the lines of SBS/SEALS to have some "Over the Horizon/DA" capability? (Not just only for TAG but also for this tasks.

 

[the road runner]

If anyone missed "Tour of Duty-Australia s secret war" it has been put up on youtube.An Extended version will be shown on Monday,December 5th 2011 @9.30 pm on ONE HD

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toJ8Uelj0PQ"]Tour of Duty - Australia's Secret War - YouTube[/nomedia]

of note was,SASR talking about how there are less targets for them in Uruzgan Province.

2nd Commando are seen working with the DEA.The DEA talk about how they wanted to work close with an Army unit.Thus the friendship between the DEA and 2Cdo.

Diggers talk about the ANA shooting ADF mentors.The Mentors just get on with the job.

It really is well worth a look,gave me a greater understanding of what the ADF faces in Afghanistan.

 

[winnyfield]

2nd Commando are seen working with the DEA.The DEA talk about how they wanted to work close with an Army unit.Thus the friendship between the DEA and 2Cdo.

Letter from Afghanistan: The Taliban’s Opium War : The New Yorker

The DEA were reliant on contractors for their direct action needs a few years back. Maybe the coalition has decided to get serious about the supply side of the insurgency; and targeting wholesalers and not farmers.

Also of note during the doc - the SOTG has the about the equivalent of the Oz Armys entire rotary fleet at its disposal.

 

[Raven22]

It seems the talk of 3 RAR being the amphib battalion was a load of tosh. As expected it will be 2 RAR, starting next year.

 

[Kirkzzy]

It seems the talk of 3 RAR being the amphib battalion was a load of tosh. As expected it will be 2 RAR, starting next year.

Makes sense.

Was probably just the media's defence "experts" confusing brigade and battalion.

 

[StevoJH]

Also of note during the doc - the SOTG has the about the equivalent of the Oz Armys entire rotary fleet at its disposal.

Thank you US Army. A bit sad when you have to borrow 'kit' as vital as helicopters to give your elite soldiers the mobility edge they require.

 

[Raven22]

Thank you US Army. A bit sad when you have to borrow 'kit' as vital as helicopters to give your elite soldiers the mobility edge they require.

It's not like the SOTG own the helicopters. They are simply in the RC(S) pool, able to be tasked out wherever the priority lies. Oddly enough, the special people are often the priority.