justsomeaussie
Member
Their allies? What are you smoking. We are training groups of people who have cultural and religious hatred for white invaders.
the road runner
Active Member
Fair call,thanx for putting it in perspectiveHowever when dealing with people from the third world because of their lifelong proximity to death and violence they are far more likely to respond to any perceived slight or grievance with lethal violence than people in our own society. Even if it results in their own death.
You said it yourself Abraham, they are poor and as I said the country is filled with corruption, that is indisputable (then again any third world country is). Put the two together, there can be a number of factors such as the Taliban bought him, he was working for the Taliban all along. It would be stupid to assume the Taliban don't have agents throughout the ANA. This and the death of Andrew Jones are not the only coalition deaths at the hands of ANA members remember.
The ANA is an outgrowth of the Northern Alliance with have been allied to the western US/NATO forces since 911. Our soldiers and theres have been fighting side by side for years. Your "I read Kipling once" approach to understanding the war in Afghanistan is a long way from reality.Their allies? What are you smoking. We are training groups of people who have cultural and religious hatred for white invaders.
Yet how on earth is background checks going to solve this sort of problem you outline? If the ANA has to discharge every poor soldier because they may be corrupted by the Taliban then there won't be many left.You said it yourself Abraham, they are poor and as I said the country is filled with corruption, that is indisputable (then again any third world country is). Put the two together, there can be a number of factors such as the Taliban bought him, he was working for the Taliban all along. It would be stupid to assume the Taliban don't have agents throughout the ANA. This and the death of Andrew Jones are not the only coalition deaths at the hands of ANA members remember.
The reality is a Taliban infiltration is one of the least likely scenarios to explain what happened. It may be the sexiest but until field security work this case over it is a bit early to make this call now.
justsomeaussie
Member
The ANA is an outgrowth of the Northern Alliance with have been allied to the western US/NATO forces since 911. Our soldiers and theres have been fighting side by side for years. Your "I read Kipling once" approach to understanding the war in Afghanistan is a long way from reality.
Good point, working in an Afghan training team gave me no perspective whatsoever. I should just be one of these arm chair generals who's read a lot of books but who doesn't have any practical experience,
Background checks? I wouldn't be holding the Australian military as being a shining example. Julian Knight (Hoddle St massacre), was a classmate of mine at RMC....I don't think they do background checks on their recruits likes we do.
justsomeaussie
Member
How do you do background checks on someone from tiny northern village? From a region where corruption is the worst in the world and where money can buy you whatever you want. According to General Khan, this member was in the ANA for 3 years. That's a long time for a "sleeper". The ANA are ruthless and amazing fighters so who knows what happened here, it's hardly a simple situation. Maybe he wigged out from PTSD after seeing too much of countrymen be killed. No one will ever likely know the real cause. But it's the nature of the training environment. Its very dangerous but a necessary evil.Background checks? I wouldn't be holding the Australian military as being a shining example. Julian Knight (Hoddle St massacre), was a classmate of mine at RMC....
If a bloke from Queensland shot a mate, would you then not trust everyone from Queensland?With this incident,how could the Diggers ever trust the ANA again?A real tough assignment and i hope the ANA take the lead and start cleaning out there house.
This fucker was just a murderer. A murderer sent to Allah courtesy of some F1 ball. One murderer in the bunch doesn't mean you can't trust the whole ANA. The ANA feel just as bad about this as Australian's do - worse probably, as it brings shame on them, and they take shame seriously. The mentoring will go on. It does mean though that at the next ANA parade I attend my pistol will be at action.
Anyway, there were a number of heroes that came out of the incident. Everyone can be proud of their actions.
I find it pretty amazing that you managed to survive your Afghan experience. I mean being sent to train soldiers of an Army we are not allied to and of which every member has a "cultural and religious hatred" of you. Thankfully we didn't make this same mistake in the VietNam War allocating the AATTV to train the Viet Kong, or in WWII send Australian trainers to Japan to help their skills development.Good point, working in an Afghan training team gave me no perspective whatsoever. I should just be one of these arm chair generals who's read a lot of books but who doesn't have any practical experience,
But you hardly need to go all the way to Afghanistan to understand that the locals have a lot of hostility towards the west and people of other cultures. However that doesn't mean that the ANA and the NATO ISAF force are not allied against the Taliban. For many Afghans it may be a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. But this certainly does not invalidate my argument. Which BTW was the rate of desertion driven by poverty should not be used to explain this attack from an Afghani on soldiers his army is allied too.
To be frank I'm surprised these incidents have not been more common.I find it pretty amazing that you managed to survive your Afghan experience. I mean being sent to train soldiers of an Army we are not allied to and of which every member has a "cultural and religious hatred" of you. Thankfully we didn't make this same mistake in the VietNam War allocating the AATTV to train the Viet Kong, or in WWII send Australian trainers to Japan to help their skills development.
But you hardly need to go all the way to Afghanistan to understand that the locals have a lot of hostility towards the west and people of other cultures. However that doesn't mean that the ANA and the NATO ISAF force are not allied against the Taliban. For many Afghans it may be a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. But this certainly does not invalidate my argument. Which BTW was the rate of desertion driven by poverty should not be used to explain this attack from an Afghani on soldiers his army is allied too.
Conducting background checks on a force that is churning out so many recruits at the maximum rate of knots is very hard in an environment which does not have access to criminal record checks, electronic databases (outside the realms of the intelligence community). They will be relying on very simple vetting processes based around can this person be vouched for and then run through a list of wanted names/photofits (very low level positive, definitely not negative vetting).
Also not all of the shootings have been Taliban instigated, the eye for an eye culture means harmless criticism could be interpreted the wrong way and been seen as a matter of honour requiring an extreme response, which in Afghan terms means killing the party who issued the insult.
We are getting to the stage were we have trainers doing the training and armed overwatch personnel conducting predictive profiling looking for signs that things are about to turn south.
No we're not.We are getting to the stage were we have trainers doing the training and armed overwatch personnel conducting predictive profiling looking for signs that things are about to turn south.
Thank you for that insightful response, but the idea of keeping a keen eye on the indigenous groups you are training to ensure they aren't about to turn rogue, or at least try and pick up the signs early is not new.No we're not.
Which is rather different to having an armed overwatch team to all training activities. An over-reaction like that, ever considered a career in politics?but the idea of keeping a keen eye on the indigenous groups you are training to ensure they aren't about to turn rogue, or at least try and pick up the signs early is not new.
I wasn't proposing watchtowers, MG34's and searchlights. But having someone designated to provide overwatch of a training cycle separate from the instructors running the lesson isn't in my opinion overkill in an environment where we have witnessed soldiers going rogue, Very important in the early days before you have built a level of trust between instructors and pupils.Which is rather different to having an armed overwatch team to all training activities. An over-reaction like that, ever considered a career in politics?
Politics is the preserve of scoundrels.
Well maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't be telling guys that are in Afghanistan today, what it is that they are doing...Thank you for that insightful response, but the idea of keeping a keen eye on the indigenous groups you are training to ensure they aren't about to turn rogue, or at least try and pick up the signs early is not new.
Get back in your box, this is an open forum discussing relevant issues of concern to us all. None off us like hearing or reading about soldiers killed by their own side, it's the ultimate betrayal. That does not preclude us discussing ways to avoid such incidences occuring in the future.Well maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't be telling guys that are in Afghanistan today, what it is that they are doing...
justsomeaussie
Member
This isn't about background checks. It's not about looking at the ANA with a skeptical eye. Everyone is guessing here, including General Khan. There are a million different reasons of what could of happened but guessing Taliban infiltration after this ANA member was in for 3 years is a joke. He was also promoted so it seems his superiors thought he had value too.
another alternative option, what if this member after 3 years of serious combat, just wigged out and lost it. ANA don't get any psychological support, they are all away from home and are kept separate from everyone else. It's an amazingly tough life, a life with which we ignore because of their "warrior culture". The ADF frequently has people RTA due to the stress of a combat zone, who says this is anything different.
I'm not pushing for or against any explanation, just trying to open peoples eyes a bit from just thinking the Taliban are behind everything.
another alternative option, what if this member after 3 years of serious combat, just wigged out and lost it. ANA don't get any psychological support, they are all away from home and are kept separate from everyone else. It's an amazingly tough life, a life with which we ignore because of their "warrior culture". The ADF frequently has people RTA due to the stress of a combat zone, who says this is anything different.
I'm not pushing for or against any explanation, just trying to open peoples eyes a bit from just thinking the Taliban are behind everything.
Get back in your box? Alright mate, if that's the way you want to talk to mods...Get back in your box, this is an open forum discussing relevant issues of concern to us all. None off us like hearing or reading about soldiers killed by their own side, it's the ultimate betrayal. That does not preclude us discussing ways to avoid such incidences occuring in the future.
the road runner
Active Member
Queenslanders? Im from NSW whats to like ...jokesIf a bloke from Queensland shot a mate, would you then not trust everyone from Queensland?
I do see your point,i guess i was just mad when i posted
I read today in the paper that there were ADF and ANA medics helping the Aussie wounded.I can see how the ANA must be feeling bad.Im sure you guys have made bonds with ANA soldiers.The ANA feel just as bad about this as Australian's do - worse probably, as it brings shame on them, and they take shame seriously. The mentoring will go on. It does mean though that at the next ANA parade I attend my pistol will be at action.
Regards