Iran has announced that they have shot down a US drone over their airspace. Though they later claim to have hacked it and have it with light damage. The model they claim to have is the RQ-170. Though in my opinion it seems very unlikely that Iran has the capacity to to hack a drone. Also how much useful information could they get if they had indeed shot down a RQ-170 (and I mean shot down as in hit it with a SAM) if that is truly what they hit. Lastly it is my personal opinion that most likely what happened was that the us lost control of a predator and it flew into Iranian airspace, ran out of fuel and crashed.
Iran claims to have shot down US drone
- Thread starter lucinator
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If I was designing one, I'd have an altimeter fuse to a big bang thing that I would set when it's above the trigger height, say 10kft and would be disarmed when it came in to land by a US forces code to hold open a solenoid or such
If it lost contact with the control room, it would stay activated and go bang when it went below 10kft
just a thought
If it lost contact with the control room, it would stay activated and go bang when it went below 10kft
just a thought
I'd worry about such a thing going wrong, & causing expensive losses.
Also (1) how much explosive would be needed to guarantee to do more damage than being shot down? Enough to affect performance?
(2) Do you really want bombs with altitude triggers sitting around your bases, & having to be fitted to your recce drones before every flight, then removed & disarmed after landing? You really, really, wouldn't want them built in to the drones.
Also (1) how much explosive would be needed to guarantee to do more damage than being shot down? Enough to affect performance?
(2) Do you really want bombs with altitude triggers sitting around your bases, & having to be fitted to your recce drones before every flight, then removed & disarmed after landing? You really, really, wouldn't want them built in to the drones.
World News - Drone that crashed in Iran risks secret U.S. technology
Well, don't know how much you can believe that article, but still.
Well... I have the same opinion that Iranians, alone, are not capable to do it.
But if we take into account rumors that Iranians provided Russian specialists with access to the 2 drones that were shot down in winter, and that Russians recently provided Iran with EW stuff, (therefore, there should be few russian EW specialists staying in Iran for some time "to provide training". Yes, I know "Avtobaza" is not designed for such kind of things, but it's just a component of a system, and I, personally, don 't know if Iranians received anything else)... well, if we take all of it into account, there're definitely few additional possibilities on how this incident could happen.
P.S. Although, I won't be surprised if all of it is just a bluff.
ok, not a big bang, how about an electronic psss that frys the good stuff or maybe an incendiary, the switch could be electromechanical with redundancy, the first solenoid activates and rotates a lock-out which allows a second solenoid when deactivated to release a mechanical safety pin
you wouldn't want the safety needing to be powered to be on
It's just a thought and probably has more holes than a colander, but some how I'd make sure it couldn't land/crash with the secret stuff intact unless I wanted it to
There are still a few questions that need to be answered and I am afraid we won't know any time soon.
If Iran could detect RQ170, why weren't jets scrambled to intercept? Isn't that expected from an air force, you don't want to shoot down a civilian plane. It doesn't appear to have been brought down with a SAM as Iran says it wasn't damaged. Any SAM would reduce it to smithereens.
I have a hard time believing the hacker theory when it appears that Iran still has problems dealing with Stuxnet virus. So my conclusion is the jammer theory that some support with Avtobaza ground-based electronic intelligence and jamming system (DEW line) or some onboard malfunction.
I am surprised that Iran hasn't provided some proof with photos or wreckage. I know the Iran fanboys on DEW disagree but the propaganda value for the regime is too big to let it go to waste . Also we have so many images of Iran's military, parading a RQ170 is just too good to be true.
The theory that this is a huge coup for Russia or China is a bit exaggerated,IMO:
One, no one knows what the original requirements were for a RQ170. What level of sophistication was required, was it to go deep inside Russia or China (probably the most difficult current air defenses) or for lesser difficult targets (Pakistan, NKorea, Iran,Venezuela,etc....)? Why would you put the most complex and secret stuff on board the lesser LO requirements? That would be stupid since you know there is ALWAYS a risk of it going down in enemy territory. It also was a fast program from Skunk Works, very likely that they reused a lot of known gear and COTS. I base that also on the fact that we have pictures of RQ170 taken during daylight hours, if we were so concerend about secrecy, USAF should have been able to operate for longer without any pictures leaking. The shape is rather conventional for UAV, noting new there. I think we shouldn't confuse the mission which is classified meaning that everything about RQ170 is classified. The engine, sat coms, most of the controls, software, maybe even some of the RAM don't necessarily have to be the latest and greatest to accomplish the mission.
Second, I find the theory even as an American very condescending/arrogant. Russia has a rich aviation tradition with some phenomenal designs, yes, they are a bit behind when it comes to UAVs which to a certain extant probably derives from a lack of operational need and lack of financing. China is making huge strides and some of the latest disclosures show that they aren't that far behind and they DEFINITELY have the money to spend catching up. Considering that China has hacked every computer DOD owns, they probably already have the blueprints anyways.Sure, would they be happy to look inside a RQ170, yes, but that doesn't mean they would be discovering a whole lot of new stuff.
Even the surveillance package doesn't have to be the latest, RQ170 was used over Pakistan to provide continuous video/presence of OBL and his compound. Sure it probably can do a few other things but that doesn't require some super secret SAR or optics. When one remembers that there have been a few "termination with prejudice" of Iranian scientists (and those are the only ones we know of, for sure), yeah, RQ170 was engaged in highly classified missions but maybe it just has the systems of a Predator with stealthier/ longer endurance.
Last, not sure Iranians should be so happy that they have a RQ170. They don't know how many have been produced or more importantly to them: how many operate over Iran and for how long? RQ170 has been in operation for a couple of years in theater, I seriously doubt that Iran brought down the first RQ170 on the first day of operations over Iran. I don't think they are that lucky.
If Iran could detect RQ170, why weren't jets scrambled to intercept? Isn't that expected from an air force, you don't want to shoot down a civilian plane. It doesn't appear to have been brought down with a SAM as Iran says it wasn't damaged. Any SAM would reduce it to smithereens.
I have a hard time believing the hacker theory when it appears that Iran still has problems dealing with Stuxnet virus. So my conclusion is the jammer theory that some support with Avtobaza ground-based electronic intelligence and jamming system (DEW line) or some onboard malfunction.
I am surprised that Iran hasn't provided some proof with photos or wreckage. I know the Iran fanboys on DEW disagree but the propaganda value for the regime is too big to let it go to waste . Also we have so many images of Iran's military, parading a RQ170 is just too good to be true.
The theory that this is a huge coup for Russia or China is a bit exaggerated,IMO:
One, no one knows what the original requirements were for a RQ170. What level of sophistication was required, was it to go deep inside Russia or China (probably the most difficult current air defenses) or for lesser difficult targets (Pakistan, NKorea, Iran,Venezuela,etc....)? Why would you put the most complex and secret stuff on board the lesser LO requirements? That would be stupid since you know there is ALWAYS a risk of it going down in enemy territory. It also was a fast program from Skunk Works, very likely that they reused a lot of known gear and COTS. I base that also on the fact that we have pictures of RQ170 taken during daylight hours, if we were so concerend about secrecy, USAF should have been able to operate for longer without any pictures leaking. The shape is rather conventional for UAV, noting new there. I think we shouldn't confuse the mission which is classified meaning that everything about RQ170 is classified. The engine, sat coms, most of the controls, software, maybe even some of the RAM don't necessarily have to be the latest and greatest to accomplish the mission.
Second, I find the theory even as an American very condescending/arrogant. Russia has a rich aviation tradition with some phenomenal designs, yes, they are a bit behind when it comes to UAVs which to a certain extant probably derives from a lack of operational need and lack of financing. China is making huge strides and some of the latest disclosures show that they aren't that far behind and they DEFINITELY have the money to spend catching up. Considering that China has hacked every computer DOD owns, they probably already have the blueprints anyways.Sure, would they be happy to look inside a RQ170, yes, but that doesn't mean they would be discovering a whole lot of new stuff.
Even the surveillance package doesn't have to be the latest, RQ170 was used over Pakistan to provide continuous video/presence of OBL and his compound. Sure it probably can do a few other things but that doesn't require some super secret SAR or optics. When one remembers that there have been a few "termination with prejudice" of Iranian scientists (and those are the only ones we know of, for sure), yeah, RQ170 was engaged in highly classified missions but maybe it just has the systems of a Predator with stealthier/ longer endurance.
Last, not sure Iranians should be so happy that they have a RQ170. They don't know how many have been produced or more importantly to them: how many operate over Iran and for how long? RQ170 has been in operation for a couple of years in theater, I seriously doubt that Iran brought down the first RQ170 on the first day of operations over Iran. I don't think they are that lucky.
It's more probable that the engine stopped, a downside to single engine aircraft. If it did, they would have instructed it to enter a terminal flight path. Additionally, I would assume it was zeroized by either operator or as designed upon impact. Like NICO I'm shocked they aren't posting photos of this for propoganda purposes. It was only a couple of years ago they were showing photoshopped pictures of their mass missile launches. :lol3
And oil drums painted up to look like S-300 launch tubes. Maybe they learned their lesson?
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- #11
CIA recently admitted it was a RQ-170 that they lost. This means Iran definitely has US stealth tech in its possession. It was too deep for a search and destroy mission. The good news is that if it was shot down, I don't think there would be much in terms of usable hardware. Also according to aviation week the stealth tech used on the Rq-120 is very old, and it was actually not that stealthy in terms of what can be done so it is probably not tech China or Russia don't already have. Lastly I wouldn't worry about what Iran would do with it given the most they've been able to do aerospace wise is to put two fins on a F-5.
The comms gear, and overall design would be of great benefit to Russia. As of right now they can't produce a decent medium-sized UAV, like the Predator. The only UAVs they've successfully put into operation are quite small. So I suspect they would be willing to pay handsomely for a chance to get access to the remains, provided they are somewhat intact.
Tom Bryceland
New Member
Taking into account the delay between the US loosing the drone and Iran finding it, i would think it just had a mechanical failure. It is still fairly new tech.
And about the Tech, Its a recon drone, they expect to lose those, hence you dont put your latest tech on kit that has a moderate to high chance of being taken down.
well i would at least like to think that this is the case.
I dont think for a second that Iran was able to hack the control signal if it was even using one, which is not clear either. the RQ is only a few years old, i would suspect that is was fully automonous, which for recon drones would make sense.
What i think happened is:
The drone had a failure of somesort, and locked up, flying deeper into Iran. Failsafe protocolls kicked in but again failed due to the problem being with flight control surfaces not responding. It drops in altitude and "glides" into the desert rather than crashes properly which it should have done.
A local guards commander gets to the site and recovers the drone, but as no serious damage had been done to the drone they could not "declare" that they shot it down and it would be crazy to add damage to the drone afterwards if they intend to "reverse engineer" as much as they can.
The Only plausabe way they can claim it was their actions that brought it down was to use the cyberwar card, regardless of how backward their capability and skills are. Im sure none of us here think for a minute that Iran actually managed to hack a drone, but its the only way they can claim credit.
On a side note, there is a possability that the drone was ment to be captured. you never know what may be hidden away somewhere inside.
And about the Tech, Its a recon drone, they expect to lose those, hence you dont put your latest tech on kit that has a moderate to high chance of being taken down.
well i would at least like to think that this is the case.
I dont think for a second that Iran was able to hack the control signal if it was even using one, which is not clear either. the RQ is only a few years old, i would suspect that is was fully automonous, which for recon drones would make sense.
What i think happened is:
The drone had a failure of somesort, and locked up, flying deeper into Iran. Failsafe protocolls kicked in but again failed due to the problem being with flight control surfaces not responding. It drops in altitude and "glides" into the desert rather than crashes properly which it should have done.
A local guards commander gets to the site and recovers the drone, but as no serious damage had been done to the drone they could not "declare" that they shot it down and it would be crazy to add damage to the drone afterwards if they intend to "reverse engineer" as much as they can.
The Only plausabe way they can claim it was their actions that brought it down was to use the cyberwar card, regardless of how backward their capability and skills are. Im sure none of us here think for a minute that Iran actually managed to hack a drone, but its the only way they can claim credit.
On a side note, there is a possability that the drone was ment to be captured. you never know what may be hidden away somewhere inside.
If Iran had the drone in an undamaged state I expect we'd have seen it by now to boost their propaganda effort.
I suspect, some local area military saw or discovered one had crashed, radio'd HQ boasting they shot it down.
HQ spreads the word to the whole world.
They send some qualified people out to investigate and lo and behold hmm, no bullet holes or frag damage in the wreckage. Better come up with a new story.
Oh wait, an Iranian kid released the Comodo anti-virus trojan dropper and Diginotar hack a while back.
That's it. Great. We'll tell the world our unrivalled computer hackers extraordinaire, hacked the thing and brought it down under our own steam. Mostly undamaged and we'll show it to the world just as soon as we can paint some plywood the right colour, shape it to look like the thing we've seen on the net and then release a few blurry photos (because we've got the most awesome air defence system in the world, but we can't afford a 12 megapixel point and shoot camera...) onto the net "proving" what we've done.
Yay! Victory against the infidels is ours!
I suspect, some local area military saw or discovered one had crashed, radio'd HQ boasting they shot it down.
HQ spreads the word to the whole world.
They send some qualified people out to investigate and lo and behold hmm, no bullet holes or frag damage in the wreckage. Better come up with a new story.
Oh wait, an Iranian kid released the Comodo anti-virus trojan dropper and Diginotar hack a while back.
That's it. Great. We'll tell the world our unrivalled computer hackers extraordinaire, hacked the thing and brought it down under our own steam. Mostly undamaged and we'll show it to the world just as soon as we can paint some plywood the right colour, shape it to look like the thing we've seen on the net and then release a few blurry photos (because we've got the most awesome air defence system in the world, but we can't afford a 12 megapixel point and shoot camera...) onto the net "proving" what we've done.
Yay! Victory against the infidels is ours!
Not yet, it's looking very much like last time they claimed they shot down a drone...
Iran tv showing the drone fully intact. Claiming they brought down the drone via cyber warfare. If their claims are true, Iran just got their hands on the latest drone technology..
BBC News - Iran shows film of captured US drone
BBC News - Iran shows film of captured US drone
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- #18
here's the video. Now looking at the video several things pop into my mind. First off the color is not one that would likely be used on a US drone. Also I measured the wing span of the plane in the video it appears to be closer to 18 meters wide rather than the 26 of the RQ-170. I believe this is a fiberglass patch-up job or a complete replica.
Iran releases video of downed U.S. spy drone–looking quite intact | The Envoy - Yahoo! News
Iran releases video of downed U.S. spy drone–looking quite intact | The Envoy - Yahoo! News
plasmahawk
Member
Here is a 2 minute long video of the Drone from the Iranian News sources: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx4rGKBR7Z0"]RQ-170 Drone in Iran, television footage ( 2011 ) Lockheed Martin RQ-170 Sentinel - - YouTube[/nomedia]
Cheers,
Plasma
Cheers,
Plasma
SouthernSky
Member
If it is indeed the real deal, it would be interesting if the US still has some way of tracking it's position through GPS etc. They may have lost control of it but may still have this ability.