The Indonesian Army

[Ananda]

Is the 14 trillion IDR/~1.5 billion USD part of the FY2012 64.4 trillion / 7.5 billion USD budget or a separate allocation?

From other source, the President already said that all procurement and preparations for new assets will have to stay with the limit of IDR 64.4 Trillion. Thus it's come from FY2012 budget. However, the budget from 2011 actually is not fully utilized yet, so with Finance Ministry already got approval from parliament for multiple year budget procurement, the carry over budget from 2011 can also be utilized within 2012.

Personally I'm highly skeptical for Apache. The Army actually liked their Mi-35 and Mi-17, and it's economical to maintain. However there's some pressure within parliament for TNI to match what Singapore has (as Singapore become benchmark for High Tech Armed Forces standard in SEA/ASEAN).
It could be that the Army Chief says that to 'pleased' some 'nationalistic hard-liners' in parliament, but latter on told them; 'we already evaluated the Apache, and we decided for more Mi-35'.

After all, for Indonesia's need, maintenance infrastructure and geographic plus operational economics, MI-35 is much more suitable than Apache. Who knows, it could also be the Army Chief put pressure for 'roboronexport' to lower procurement price for additional MI-35. The Army already got 5 Mi-35 and plan to add another 3 thus make it 8. They can say to the Russian; 'alright there're 8 discount Apache, well how much you will ask for 8 additional Mi-35 ?'

Besides that, i dont think the US will agree with the sale of such capable combat helicopter to RI, even if its second hand AH-64As.

Is it more capable than 24 F-16 MLU with Block 50 avionics and engine that the Obama's administrations and US congress already agree on ? Besides even the Army decided with Apache. with USD 25 mio on the discount price tag, I don't think it's come with long-bow.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

Hi all, this is my first thread. It is always nice to read your thread Ananda, especially about Indonesian Military.

Is it more capable than 24 F-16 MLU with Block 50 avionics and engine that the Obama's administrations and US congress already agree on ? Besides even the Army decided with Apache. with USD 25 mio on the discount price tag, I don't think it's come with long-bow.

=>What about protests from human right activists on the possibility of Apache in COIN? I think more protests received for OV-10 or M-16 than F-16, because they were used intensively in East Timor and Aceh?

=>Out of this thread, about the possibility of MBT in Kalimantan, isn`t there any consideration about training ground? Rocket trials in Lumajang or Howitzer trials in Central Java got protests from nearby farmers. Java is already crowded. The last rocket trials were moved to South Sumatra because in Lumajang a farmer already lost his leg due to rocket explosion.

 

[koxinga]

Sejarah Armed

An interesting website of Indonesian artillery unit. I do not speak or write Bahasa and rely mainly on Google Translator.

What caught my attention near the end of the page is the mention and photo of the Singaporean FH-2000. What was interesting was after translation, it said that the FH-2000 was decommissioned in 2004 due to various problems.

Is the translation correct?

edit

Another interesting website. Most of their artillery pieces are visible in their gallery section.

http://www.pusdikarmed.mil.id/index...ew=category&id=8:lat-pmdb-diksarcab&Itemid=54

 

[DavidDCM]

Yes, basically correct. But it wasn't fully decomissioned, it was withdrawn from active service and transferred to the army maintenance workshop. The text does not say what the workshop did to solve the issues or even if he did anything at all.

 

[Ananda]

An interesting website of Indonesian artillery unit. I do not speak or write Bahasa and rely mainly on Google Translator.

What caught my attention near the end of the page is the mention and photo of the Singaporean FH-2000. What was interesting was after translation, it said that the FH-2000 was decommissioned in 2004 due to various problems.

Yes, basically you're right. However this does not mean the FH-2000 already decom as' decom' means. They put FH-2000 on maintanance facilities. From local forum some time ago, there's mentioned that problem more to the mobility pack of the guns. As you may already know FH-2000 has self mobility packs that enable the gun for self movement (granted limited).

However those the mentioned that come from someone that heard from someone else in the army. Thus no solid info.

TNI-AD now more interested to standardised their gun to 105 mm. Although some mentioned for additional 155mm still there. Pindad already have some progress on developing 105 mm ammo, thus 105 mm seems will continue as the standard calibre for TNI-AD big guns.

Note:
I see David already answered before me. Don't see David post yet when I send my post. Seems got some problem putting the posts from my computer

 

[Ananda]

Double Post.

 

[koxinga]

Thanks. The mobility issue is basically the APU. It is surprising considering that ST is just a short hop away and there should be little issue to maintain this.

As for standardizing around the 105mm, perhaps it is an operational decision although I do wonder why. Most militaries have gone 155mm of either 39 - 52 calibre as it gives them a greater flexibility and there are a wider number of platforms available.

 

[Ananda]

Thanks. The mobility issue is basically the APU. It is surprising considering that ST is just a short hop away and there should be little issue to maintain this.

As for standardizing around the 105mm, perhaps it is an operational decision although I do wonder why. Most militaries have gone 155mm of either 39 - 52 calibre as it gives them a greater flexibility and there are a wider number of platforms available.

If only that, I agree with you. But like I said before, the problem with mobility unit is only speculation. If I can speculated myself, The Army perhaps have problem to continue supporting only one battery of 155 mm on they overall Artillery asset.

Why 105 mm ? I believe the answered is 'cost'. 105 mm is cheaper since there's a lot of surplus 105 mm in the market. Also supporting 105 mm is easier considering the army Ground and air support (heli force) seems will be more suitable for 105 mm gun.

Although the weight for current 155 mm already much decreasing, but still heavier than 105 mm unit. Also Pindad now only begin to make 105 mm ammo, and they will not venture to 155 mm ammo at least for next couple of years.

There some talk for the Army on getting French Ceasar 155 mm mobile gun platform. But that's still talked.

 

[koxinga]

There some talk for the Army on getting French Ceasar 155 mm mobile gun platform. But that's still talked.

It should be viewed from a doctrine development angle rather than just randomly buying what's popular.

Actually, I do see this as likely. Given the types of equipment being obtained, there is a gradual move towards a more mobile type forces (e.g armoured regiment) with organic artillery support. A self propelled platform would be a logical outcome of this, although there are limited choices for a 105mm SPG.

South Korea military unveils new mounted 105mm self-propelled artillery truck Samsung 0910112 - Army Recognition

China markets SH-5 105mm self-propelled Artillery to foreign countries | China Military Power Mashup

 

[DavidDCM]

Retrofitting the existing 105mm SPH (AMX Mk 61) would be easier and cheaper than buying a new system.

Current doctrinal plans are to raise 3 mechanized infantry battalions (one each on Java, Papua & Kalimantan). The Java-based one is already operational, equipped with Anoas.
An Anoa mortar carrier is in development, probably for these units.

The Cavallery is also going to get some love, but we have to wait until the plans have progressed a bit.

 

[Ananda]

Retrofitting the existing 105mm SPH (AMX Mk 61) would be easier and cheaper than buying a new system.

That's interesting. On paper the Army have a battalion of AMX mk 61. I just wandering my self if the current turret of mk 61 can be re-equipped with 155 mm gun. Perhaps 38 calibre ?

It should be viewed from a doctrine development angle rather than just randomly buying what's popular.

I think they're trying to be realistic. In sense with towed guns, they feel logistically it's more feasible for them under current supporting asset to be 105 mm. They do studied on getting additional 155 mm, but seems incline to a mobile/self propelled platform and not towed gun.

 

[koxinga]

That's interesting. On paper the Army have a battalion of AMX mk 61. I just wandering my self if the current turret of mk 61 can be re-equipped with 155 mm gun. Perhaps 38 calibre ?

I don't see any value to this along with technical constraints (the chassis). If they are going for 155mm SP systems, the market is pretty much flood with used platforms that maybe cheaper than trying to shoehorn a 155 inside a AMX chassis.

Btw, I don't think platforms like the AS90/PzH2000 would be suitable due to the weight. Prob Singaporean PRIMUS155mm/39 (tracked) with a weight of 28 - 31 tons since they were designed for SEA conditions. Or M109s since relations with the US are improving.

If they intend to go 105mm wheeled SPG, then my guess is that the SK solution would be ideal from a logistics standpoint. That gun would be a KH178, which was acquired in numbers recently by TNI. Mobility wise, a commercial truck chassis will not be very good though.

I think they're trying to be realistic. In sense with towed guns, they feel logistically it's more feasible for them under current supporting asset to be 105 mm. They do studied on getting additional 155 mm, but seems incline to a mobile/self propelled platform and not towed gun.

The question is calibre first, then whether towed or self propelled, and if self propelled, wheeled vs tracked.

 

[Ananda]

I don't see any value to this along with technical constraints (the chassis). If they are going for 155mm SP systems, the market is pretty much flood with used platforms that maybe cheaper than trying to shoehorn a 155 inside a AMX chassis.

Remembered Mk F3 ? True it's not enclosed in a turret, but it show that AMX-13 chassis can fitted and withstand 1960's 155 mm gun weight. Also the old 105 mm gun on Mk 61 is not consider light weight for current 105 mm standard. I believe it weight and dimensions even lighter and smaller but close to similar with 155/39 gun use on Primus.

On purely speculation basis if they can find 155 mm gun that can fitted to Mk 61 turret, perhaps that can provide cheaper alternative than getting new SP platform for 155 mm gun.

However I do agree with the current conditions that seems show surpluses of 155 mm SP platform in the market.

 

[DavidDCM]

I did not mean they should upgrade the Mk 61 into a 155 mm system. I meant more simple upgrades, for example a digital off-the-shelf fire control system. Maybe automotive overhauling and new gun barrels if that is necessary.

The Mk 61 is definitely limited. No rotating turret, so rather slow reaction time. Very crammed, so not much ready ammo. But at least it is already there, in Indonesia. It shares a common supply chain with the AMX-13 and the AMX VCI, which makes it easier and cheaper to maintain.

 

[Ananda]

Ex Nato Surplus MBT for TNI-AD

The Min-Def seems more inclined on purchasing some ex Nato Surplus Hardware. From Tempo online with Google Translate: Tempo.co - Kemenhan Pastikan Beli Senjata Bekas dari Eropa *

TEMPO.CO, Jakarta - The Ministry of Defence is still the primary means of completing the planned purchase of weapons systems (defense equipment) used from several European countries.

Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro said current purchase plan still being negotiated by the Army. "We have so far not yet know the exact details because it's his business too much," said Purnomo after as a speaker on energy security seminar in Jakarta.

According to Purnomo, the team of AD is still formulating the price, quantity, and type of defense equipment to be purchased, whether new or used. Including determining the specifications of defense equipment to be purchased. "The new purchase was decided that the main battle tanks and heavy tanks," said Purnomo.

One of the defense equipment that is now targeted the government, the minister said, is the Army's Leopard tanks Germany. In addition, Apache helicopters targeted. However, according to Purnomo, to decide to buy, many things to consider and not just low price.

Purnomo added that the terms of this defense equipment to be purchased must have a minimum lifetime of 20 years after it is upgraded. Countries that will be explored in the purchase of defense equipment is French, Dutch, German, Italian, and Spanish.

It's been speculated for sometime, but coming from Min-Def seems give stronger inclination. There're potential surplus Leo 2, but who has surplus Apache ? Why he's still pondering with Apache. It's not suitable for Indonesian need. More Mi-35 is better.

 

[koxinga]

http://www.rnw.nl/bahasa-indonesia/bulletin/indonesia-incar-tank-belanda

The Dutch appear to have confirmed that Indonesia is interested in their Leopards.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia Incar Tank Belanda | Radio Nederland Wereldomroep

The Dutch appear to have confirmed that Indonesia is interested in their Leopards.

Yes, but with Dutch politics heavy with OPM (Free Papuan Movement) supporters, the Indonesian Min-def does not show they will rely to Dutch alone on getting bargain price Leo 2. Yesterday during the visit from German President, it's clear that Indonesia hoping to gain more favorable cooperation from the German. In short, Min-def already told the Dutch they are interested, but at the same time send signal to the Dutch, if you don't want to sell, Min-def can find other more favorable supplier.

 

[koxinga]

Yes, but with Dutch politics heavy with OPM (Free Papuan Movement) supporters.

You forgot RMS government-in-exile.

 

[Ananda]

You forgot RMS government-in-exile.

Yeah, and some Dutch guys (if you can see their comment on other forum) wandering why Indonesian does not used Dutch languages as much as Malaysian or Singaporean did with English. With their support for RMS and OPM, why should we

 

[DavidDCM]

The Dutch but also the German parliaments may block the deal. Netherlands has a very special relation with Indonesia, of course, but even Germany could say 'no' if they see the situation in Papua as too critical. German government one or two months ago okay'ed the sale of Leopard 2 to Saudi Arabia, but that doesn't mean anything. They could okay the deal with the Saudis, but block the deal with Indonesia, even though the human rights situation in Saudi Arabia is much graver than in Indonesia. That's the way politics works, it has nothing to do with common sense, but political gains. And the Saudi Arabian gov'ment is much more important to the Germans than the Indonesian gov'ment.

In another matter, the Ukraine threw their hat into the ring as well a couple of days ago. A Ukrainian sales manager gave an interview to a big Indonesian magazine and said his company was offering the T-64BM Bulat to Indonesia (price would be slightly cheaper than the 2nd-hand Leopard 2's).
This might be plan C if every Leopard 2 seller says no.