F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

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moahunter

Banned Member
F-35 jet project is "slowly unravelling"

I'm not sure if this article is really based on anything new, or just trying to stir the pot, but the headline is the top story in Canada's National Post this morning. The F35 acquisition is very unpopular in Canada now, especially after shipbuilding has just been put out to what appears to have been a succesfull competitive tender:

OTTAWA — The Conservative government’s controversial F-35 jet fighter project, plagued by delays, cost overruns and now economic turmoil in Europe, is at growing risk of being sharply curtailed or shelved — the defence minister’s protestations notwithstanding.


“It just seems like it’s slowly unravelling,” said an industry insider who specializes in aircraft procurement. “It’s a mess.”
F-35 jet project is 'slowly unravelling,' industry insider says | Full Comment | National Post

Quite a few people are questioning if rather than 65 F35's, maybe it would have been better to go with a larger number of Superhornets off the shelf, which can easily be configured to work in Canadian conditions (using the CF18's as a base). On the flip side, there is more potential industry benefits to the F35 (although that assumes the type of volumes originally targetted will be produced).
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I'm not sure if this article is really based on anything new, or just trying to stir the pot, but the headline is the top story in Canada's National Post this morning. The F35 acquisition is very unpopular in Canada now, especially after shipbuilding has just been put out to what appears to have been a succesfull competitive tender:



F-35 jet project is 'slowly unravelling,' industry insider says | Full Comment | National Post
That industry insider wouldn't happen to be on Boeing's payrole by any chance would he?

Classic white anting effort there...
 

jack412

Active Member
Having a fixed price up front will stop the underbidding, the Boeing tanker is a classic example, the price didnt hold for a month after it won the contract

Just a beat up, the decission is made that canada will get f-35
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
.......The point of the GPS coment was that many people not just me but people of every rank both active and retired from both the US and other militaries worry that with our reliance on Some technologies we may have developed a weakness.
Many more people believe through direct observation, that it's the reliance on those critical advanced technologies that give us the overwhelming battlespace dominance we (we being The West) clearly have at the current time.

Many thought technology was a weakness before the Gulf War too. We're too reliant upon it. It's too expensive, reduces our assets qualitative advantage too much and may lead to a weakness.

Then the most advanced military force on Earth, completely annihilated the 4th biggest land Army in the world, supported by one of the most advanced and "tightest" IADS and one of the largest airforces in the world, in a matter of weeks and suffered a stunningly minimal number of casualties doing so.

It was the biggest wake-up call in military history. Something that Russia, China and others haven't failed to notice, but clearly some in the West have...


That AND just a random thought about how no one seems to be able to function without being plugged into a ipod, Ipad, cellphone or some other such device.

You just read to much into it.
And it's getting worse, yearly. Indeed the military is probably somewhat behind in this regard but it's catching up quickly.

Imagine the advantage an individual soldier on the ground will have when the JSF or UAV circling overhead is streaming real-time EOTS video footage straight to the smartphone device strapped to his non-firing hand, whilst his enemy is hiding in his foxhole/cave/defile on the other side of the hill not receiving the same information?

If you can't see the benefit this technology provides, then please don't ever go to war against a modern Western power...

And wouldnt using active EW from a stealth platform be counter productive in many ways?
Well the good thing about electronics, is that they have the ability to be turned on and off as the situation at hand requires, by the simple expedient of flicking a switch. Or do you imagine that emitter systems are constantly blaring out electrons 24/7, with no control over these emissions whatsoever?

It is true that if a jammer, communications or radar system emits electro-magnetic energy, then potentially that energy may be detected and perhaps the target may be tracked.

But EW is such a complicated field that simplifying the matter so much is a waste of time. If that were the case that a "stealth" couldn't emit at ALL, then they would be unable to be equipped with a radar or any transmission capable communications equipment. Clearly they are fitted with such capabilities, so there must be another answer...

The F-35 will have active and passive EW capabilities throughout it's service matched to it's intended role. The full capabilities of which aren't going to be revealed for decades yet, if ever

Like i said my grip isnt the tactical superiority of the F-35 but the over all idea of getting few and few airframes because of cost (both in development and construction-though now it seems to be mostly R&D) which means less and less flexability.

Same in ships, APC's, and other assets.
That isn't soley technologies fault. Declining budgets, lack of a real threat for most countries AND the increasing effectiveness of military platforms are the reasons.

Despite this, the threats are improving and therefore our capabilities have to as well.

Australia is planning on spending $16billion on it's acquisition of F-35 fighters. This will give us up to 100x F-35 fighters.

No doubt we could acquire many more F-16's for this money. However if they aren't capable of doing the job we need or surviving in the battlespace that we envisage operating in, then it's hardly a wise investment is it?

We drive armoured Bushmaster IMV's in Afghanistan. They cost more than $500,000 a piece. We could buy many more Landrovers for the same amount of money, but we'd pay in blood then instead of dollars...

Having large amounts of a capability isn't always the best option, if that capability will be blown out of the sky before it can achieve the effects you want from it.
 
In a tier one war of attrition (non-nuclear) against a comparable foe, airframes will start to dwindle as a result of attrition, so a country with the ability to speed up the manufacturing process will have a strategic advantage. With the F35 fast becoming the future fighter of choice for the west, production lines once in full swing should allow for the introduction of replacement airframes faster than a potential advisory trying to build a comparable airframe with a less developed manufacturing base..
and how easy would it be to disrupt the supply base/mfg chain to be able to produce such platforms in the example of a tier one war (non-nuclear)?
 

Belesari

New Member
I'm Not argueing against the technology itself. I'm a tech guy i think we need to be on the cutting edge. My problem is when we become so dependent on technology we allow the skills that we would need to fall back on to atrophy and fall away.

It would be like not teaching Hand to hand to infantry and other combat troops because they have rifles and other ranged weapons. Do they need to be utterly profficent at it. No not all maybe. But they need to show some profficency.

And my posting that about ipods and such was more comment on society as a whole Just like my comment on GPS. I've lived without them enough to know what happens when people get utterly dependent on them.
--------------------------------------

I just figured equiping the F35 with the EW pods would messup the Radar signature and such.

Or do they have an internal modual?



Many more people believe through direct observation, that it's the reliance on those critical advanced technologies that give us the overwhelming battlespace dominance we (we being The West) clearly have at the current time.

Many thought technology was a weakness before the Gulf War too. We're too reliant upon it. It's too expensive, reduces our assets qualitative advantage too much and may lead to a weakness.

Then the most advanced military force on Earth, completely annihilated the 4th biggest land Army in the world, supported by one of the most advanced and "tightest" IADS and one of the largest airforces in the world, in a matter of weeks and suffered a stunningly minimal number of casualties doing so.

It was the biggest wake-up call in military history. Something that Russia, China and others haven't failed to notice, but clearly some in the West have...




And it's getting worse, yearly. Indeed the military is probably somewhat behind in this regard but it's catching up quickly.

Imagine the advantage an individual soldier on the ground will have when the JSF or UAV circling overhead is streaming real-time EOTS video footage straight to the smartphone device strapped to his non-firing hand, whilst his enemy is hiding in his foxhole/cave/defile on the other side of the hill not receiving the same information?

If you can't see the benefit this technology provides, then please don't ever go to war against a modern Western power...



Well the good thing about electronics, is that they have the ability to be turned on and off as the situation at hand requires, by the simple expedient of flicking a switch. Or do you imagine that emitter systems are constantly blaring out electrons 24/7, with no control over these emissions whatsoever?

It is true that if a jammer, communications or radar system emits electro-magnetic energy, then potentially that energy may be detected and perhaps the target may be tracked.

But EW is such a complicated field that simplifying the matter so much is a waste of time. If that were the case that a "stealth" couldn't emit at ALL, then they would be unable to be equipped with a radar or any transmission capable communications equipment. Clearly they are fitted with such capabilities, so there must be another answer...

The F-35 will have active and passive EW capabilities throughout it's service matched to it's intended role. The full capabilities of which aren't going to be revealed for decades yet, if ever



That isn't soley technologies fault. Declining budgets, lack of a real threat for most countries AND the increasing effectiveness of military platforms are the reasons.

Despite this, the threats are improving and therefore our capabilities have to as well.

Australia is planning on spending $16billion on it's acquisition of F-35 fighters. This will give us up to 100x F-35 fighters.

No doubt we could acquire many more F-16's for this money. However if they aren't capable of doing the job we need or surviving in the battlespace that we envisage operating in, then it's hardly a wise investment is it?

We drive armoured Bushmaster IMV's in Afghanistan. They cost more than $500,000 a piece. We could buy many more Landrovers for the same amount of money, but we'd pay in blood then instead of dollars...

Having large amounts of a capability isn't always the best option, if that capability will be blown out of the sky before it can achieve the effects you want from it.
 

Belesari

New Member
One thing thats been true about innovation from day one though is that it does trickle down.

I figure less than 10 years before most new US military fighters and bombers get most systems (like the helmet mounted HUD an other goodies) on the F-35.

After all after the initial R&D has been done the big cost factor goes away.


A SH with all the bells and whistles will jack up its price substantially. It will still be a less capable platform and one penalized kinematically with all sorts of external pods, ordnance and fuel tanks , inferior situational awareness and RCS magnified even more by all the kit it carries. The Navy has stated quite clearly that the SH will not be up to the challenge posed by advanced IADS.
 

rip

New Member
One thing thats been true about innovation from day one though is that it does trickle down.

I figure less than 10 years before most new US military fighters and bombers get most systems (like the helmet mounted HUD an other goodies) on the F-35.

After all after the initial R&D has been done the big cost factor goes away.
This thread is quite long so I do not know if this has been covered before but one of the unintended benefits of developing the “B” variant was the lift fan. But to make the lift fan workable they had to invent the geared connection to the main engine. There are people right now working on harnessing that very large energy tap from that big expensive engine not for a lift fan but to power future energy weapons, laser, RF, and EMP. Some were in the future later models of the F-35 , maybe EF-35F, will have these capacities in amounts not seen in any other platform.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This thread is quite long so I do not know if this has been covered before but one of the unintended benefits of developing the “B” variant was the lift fan. But to make the lift fan workable they had to invent the geared connection to the main engine. There are people right now working on harnessing that very large energy tap from that big expensive engine not for a lift fan but to power future energy weapons, laser, RF, and EMP. Some were in the future later models of the F-35 , maybe EF-35F, will have these capacities in amounts not seen in any other platform.
small correcton, they didn't invent the gearing and management system for that fan, its based on russian developments and IIRC acquired by the UK (and ultimately BAE) when they went shopping in russia in the mid to late 90's

I did work on a project where a research entity was adapting mini superconductor tech to drive shafts for reduction systems. that was 8 years ago and was targetted at STOVL like assets including JSF variants
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
Russia's contribution, as widely publicized, was initial info on the three-bearing nozzle, not the gear lift fan.

Do you have any source about their info on the geared lift fan?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Russia's contribution, as widely publicized, was initial info on the three-bearing nozzle, not the gear lift fan.

Do you have any source about their info on the geared lift fan?
nope, no public that i know of. the project I worked on did revolve around the engineering constructs that it was orginally russian tech that had to be modified for modern high power engines.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
The Russians only used separate lift engines in their VTOL fighters. Do you know what project this lift fan info came from?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Russians only used separate lift engines in their VTOL fighters. Do you know what project this lift fan info came from?
it came straight from gear that the poms bought via DERA from the russians (pre qinetic, pre BAE)
 

colay

New Member
My problem is when we become so dependent on technology we allow the skills that we would need to fall back on to atrophy and fall away.
What specifically are you referring to? Resources are finite and some system will always have priority over others.
 

Belesari

New Member
Not so much systems as skills. Alot of skills that a traditional infantryman needs to have for regular warfare have gone by the wayside because of the demands of doing COIN ops with far to few people. So we cheat by using technology but we are begining to lose skills or let them be lax.

Yes this is in many ways because of the decreasing budgets and in others by the refusal of congress to up the size of the US forces-the US armed forces usually make or exceed recruitment limits.

Hell i've heard Marines, Sailors and Soldiers bitch about how so many lack basic skills-like that map reading i mentioned or are just terrible at it.

One thing that hampers Western nations and which the anti-military and anti US establisment loves to hit on is the amount the US spends on Defense. Nevermind we spend half of that on pay and housing and such which i wonder how much the PRC or others spend.

Then their is our HUGE supply lines....

What specifically are you referring to? Resources are finite and some system will always have priority over others.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm Not argueing against the technology itself. I'm a tech guy i think we need to be on the cutting edge. My problem is when we become so dependent on technology we allow the skills that we would need to fall back on to atrophy and fall away.

It would be like not teaching Hand to hand to infantry and other combat troops because they have rifles and other ranged weapons. Do they need to be utterly profficent at it. No not all maybe. But they need to show some profficency.
And this is relevant to the F-35 how, exactly? Have you seen any information indicates qualifying on the F-35 will require less fundamental, non tech-centric skills than other frontline combat jets?

Pilots of the F-35 will go through all the learning steps that present pilots do, as far as I know... and yes, that includes all the more fundamental flight skills, along with the warfighting skills to go with them, before they even set foot in an F-35's cockpit. That aside, if a failure in training means pilots do not learn these skills, that has nothing to do with the F-35, but with training procedures. Pilots in this circumstance would be no better off with any other kind of aircraft. So I don't really get your point in so far as it concerns the F-35...
 

moahunter

Banned Member
^it doesn't make for a good story though. For example, the cost of the buddy-buddy system. In a similar way, Canada is facing the cost of a lack of radio capability over the arctic, which will have to be enhanced (the CF-18's carry a radio pod). All of these "little things" cost money to bring a new platform up to speed against an existing one that has already been invested in.

Then you see the rumblings on capital hill, which means we have no idea what the fly-away cost will be per plane, because we don't know how many planes will be ordered and in how many roles:

Army Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, says developing and building three variants of the high-tech fighter creates fiscal challenges for the department.

He is telling the House Armed Services Committee that he is committed to developing a new, fifth-generation fighter. But he is questioning whether the U.S. can afford separate versions for the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps.
Read more: Top U.S. general opens door for F-35 cuts - CTV News

Maybe the "right" answer from an economic standpoint is to cut both the B and C variants, and just focus on the A? I don't think the US Navy would be that upset going with Superhornets, more the Marines, but I think there has to be some serious soul searching over whether or not the Maines air arm makes sense.

The US already spends more on the military than the rest of the world combined, current capabilities IMO aren't sustainable and aren't needed forever - I have started a discussion on that here:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/g...re-sustainable-current-form-11544/#post231457
 

Sea Toby

New Member
^it doesn't make for a good story though. For example, the cost of the buddy-buddy system. In a similar way, Canada is facing the cost of a lack of radio capability over the arctic, which will have to be enhanced (the CF-18's carry a radio pod). All of these "little things" cost money to bring a new platform up to speed against an existing one that has already been invested in.

Then you see the rumblings on capital hill, which means we have no idea what the fly-away cost will be per plane, because we don't know how many planes will be ordered and in how many roles:



Read more: Top U.S. general opens door for F-35 cuts - CTV News

Maybe the "right" answer from an economic standpoint is to cut both the B and C variants, and just focus on the A? I don't think the US Navy would be that upset going with Superhornets, more the Marines, but I think there has to be some serious soul searching over whether or not the Maines air arm makes sense.

The US already spends more on the military than the rest of the world combined, current capabilities IMO aren't sustainable and aren't needed forever - I have started a discussion on that here:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/g...re-sustainable-current-form-11544/#post231457

Not a bad plan cutting all but the A... Unfortunately, you have almost doubled the price for them without C production... And at the end the USAF will want Super Hornets too... Kill the C and you kill all of the F-35s...
 

Belesari

New Member
And this is relevant to the F-35 how, exactly? Have you seen any information indicates qualifying on the F-35 will require less fundamental, non tech-centric skills than other frontline combat jets?

Pilots of the F-35 will go through all the learning steps that present pilots do, as far as I know... and yes, that includes all the more fundamental flight skills, along with the warfighting skills to go with them, before they even set foot in an F-35's cockpit. That aside, if a failure in training means pilots do not learn these skills, that has nothing to do with the F-35, but with training procedures. Pilots in this circumstance would be no better off with any other kind of aircraft. So I don't really get your point in so far as it concerns the F-35...
No thats why i've said its getting off topic on a number of points. My point was more in other area's.

We have i hope learned from our assumption that all future Air-Air engagments will be decided 3-5mi out with missiles that was once expected.
 
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