Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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jimmyjames

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When the Govt. looks at their whole 'moving bases' proposal one of them will probabley be where to move the amphibs. I wouldnt expect FBE to be moved, but a FBNE would be possible.
I would like to see a LHD based in Darwin from the East Point Arm. This could be done as it is being planned for and a hard beach is being build for all the LCM8's and the Army's heavy Armour and armed aviation is in Darwin..
All the civilian infrastructure (roads,rail,wharfs and support services) is already being upgraded for the shipping and the gas industry that is already coming to the area.
 
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alexsa

Super Moderator
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Verified Defense Pro
I would like to see a LHD based in Darwin from the East Point Arm. This could be done as it is being planned for and a hard beach is being build for all the LCM8's and the Army's heavy Armour and armed aviation is in Darwin..
All the civilian infrastructure (roads,rail,wharfs and support services) is already being upgraded for the shipping and the gas industry that is already coming to the area.
This is a commercial facility and will not allow part of the wharf face to be used as a home port for a large Amphib when this reduces earning capacity............. and why would it.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Darwin could be used as a staging area or a resupply area, and most likely would as it was in Timor.

However if the crisis is in Fiji, Samoa, NZ, New Cal etc then your better off basing out of somewhere on the east coast cairns, bris or Syd. Even then, for most of those theres not a huge difference between Bris/Syd and cairns for travel times.

Whats the maxium unloaded speed of the LHD? 24 kts? In sea trials?
 
This is a commercial facility and will not allow part of the wharf face to be used as a home port for a large Amphib when this reduces earning capacity............. and why would it.
Long time lurker, but this topic prompted me to join and comment because I have been pondering about such things lately, so a wall of words follows.

The port is owned by the NT Government. If they want to/can be persuaded to add berthing facilities for the Navy, it is less a matter of commercial concerns than if it was a private entity. To be frank, I would imagine the NT Gov would bend over backwards or forwards to have a significant Navy presence over and above the PBs.

A section of the new wharf area is dedicated for loading/unloading equipment and vehicles onto vessels. How set in stone the plans are I don't know, and I can't find details of how the area will be constructed, but surely a birth for side loading large vessels must be a given as that is how the LSD and LHDs are loaded?

I know this is my first post so I can't post links (just replace the underscore with a period), but a combination of...
* This stylistic plan: www_darwinport_nt_gov_au/sites/default/files/images/map-aerial-large.jpg
* And this annotated aerial photograph: img214_imageshack_us/img214/6214/darwineastarm2030.jpg
...shows the size of the planned Defence hardstand. There is room for some changes there.
If they were interested in shifting from Larrakeyah there is room for the Navy to build a substantial base at a number of points (depths and tides permitting), even after the commercial interests are taken care of.

But I think all this is just of academic interest because I don't think such a basing option would be very desirable for Defence. The theoretically ideal option, I would think, would be Townsville and schedule in additional "diversity training seminars" for the two services based in town. :p: 48 years after Martin Luther King Jr had a dream, and little Army boys and girls can't hold hands with little Navy boys and girls. :(

But getting back to the point, the dedicated amphib unit would get to play often with the equipment and people they are likely to use, and so would the local Army Av unit, the ships are there ready to load up so they can leave as soon as the escort gets there, and they are well positioned for a move into the Pacific or to the northern archipelago.
I would think expanding HMAS Cairns for a LHD home would displace a lot of commercial wharf area in a port where it isn't easily replaceable, unless you wanted to build on the eastern side of Trinity (which would leave either a long drive or short boat ride into Cairns).
Is Brisbane not an option? Perhaps on the north bank, close to the airport and the Meeandah Stores area (which could be a more developed Joint logistics hub). You could call it something way out of left-field, like...HMAS Moreton.

Future basing is going to be a real problem. You have the Navy super-sizing like a fat boy at McDonalds and GI isn't getting any bigger. In fact it may get even smaller if the Sydney tourism drones get their way and turn it into a cruise terminal. That the Fed Gov didn't immediately stamp down hard on the proposal with a loud "No" is just awful. Should have left no wriggle room. It means the State Gov will keep whining away like a brat until someone gives in.

Has there been any musings over an HMAS Coonawarra and Cairns redevelopment, in light of the size of the OCV? It's not just wharf space but the ship lifts and maintenance requirements. Coonawarra would need a major redevelopment and Cairns has only just had one.
 
A bit of a thinking out loud idea, looking at the map the bit where the Western Australian coast turns from North to NW is called NW cape. I think the US has a naval communications base there. What do you think of a forwards operation base near there for the Navy, to refuel submarnines,,, perhaps do some light maintenance, get fresh food, let teh crew get out and about and have a walk around etc.

It could even be covered with a light steel roof, making it harder for potential adverseries to tell if a sub was in port or not.

Obviously there would need to be other people based there, maybe also a couple of patrol boats, corvettes. Also sonar and coils on the seabed for security, infantry to protect the base from land based attack.

My thinking is that it could allow vessels to have a larger combat radius. I do not know if the water there is deep enough for a sub to get into dock submerged (probably not). I realise that space based radar can track a surfaced sub.

Another downside would be that it would cost a lot, and people would be reluctant to be posted to the middle of nowhere. Probably easier to get support staff in Perth as opposed to near Derby. Idea is more a forward operating base, rather than a full blown navy base

just an idea
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
At Exmouth WA. There is absolutely nothing there except a communications facility and one of the RAAF's "bare bases" which is currently being used as a detention centre.

I don't see any benefit to offset the expense of building a naval base there, it would be bad for retention to base people there full time to run the facility and it wouldn't be cheap to ship in fuel etc.

If they want a stopover on the way north they can stop in darwin.

Edit: Its only 1100km from Garden Island, thats what? 2-3 days transit? If a basic facility was considered i'd suggest either Christmas Island (or if thats too close to Indonesia, the Coco's(Keeling) Islands.
 

winnyfield

New Member
At Exmouth WA. There is absolutely nothing there except a communications facility and one of the RAAF's "bare bases" which is currently being used as a detention centre.

I don't see any benefit to offset the expense of building a naval base there, it would be bad for retention to base people there full time to run the facility and it wouldn't be cheap to ship in fuel etc.

If they want a stopover on the way north they can stop in darwin.

Edit: Its only 1100km from Garden Island, thats what? 2-3 days transit? If a basic facility was considered i'd suggest either Christmas Island (or if thats too close to Indonesia, the Coco's(Keeling) Islands.
Karratha-Dampier is probably a better bet. Already has large shipping facilities.
 

rand0m

Member
Is anyone able to advise if it is possible for LHD's to transfer vehicles with a LCH whilst at sea? In specific I'm trying to establish whether the Canberra class LHD's will be capable of load/unloading vehicles with the Balikpapan class/replacement whilst at sea. I'm yet to see any details of the Caimen-200 being able to do this, surely it would be a requirement?
 

Para 3

New Member
Karratha-Dampier is probably a better bet. Already has large shipping facilities.
.......that are currently serving the oil, gas and iron ore sectors. The only available wharf (Dampier Cargo Wharf) is extremely busy. The navy did fund a berth for the patrol boats, but has been empty since. The token coverage of the North West is currently served by Customs and Border Protection.

A good exercise is to look at the Tindal experince. (Isolated, little or no facilities), and see how the families cope with extreme isolation from other areas.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Navy already has a base on the NWS at Port Hedland. It is used to support patrol operations. Its utility for submarines is very much in the negative. The key issue for subs is not more fuel but more discretion. Popping a sub into a forward base to refuel lets everyone else know where it is. That's how you sink subs, know where they are and then flood the area with active ASW.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Is anyone able to advise if it is possible for LHD's to transfer vehicles with a LCH whilst at sea? In specific I'm trying to establish whether the Canberra class LHD's will be capable of load/unloading vehicles with the Balikpapan class/replacement whilst at sea. I'm yet to see any details of the Caimen-200 being able to do this, surely it would be a requirement?
There is a crane in front of the LHD's bridge. So if the landing craft can't enter the well dock if its too large, the landing craft could be loaded by the crane alongside. The crane can also be used at a pier as well, if necessary...

Simple merchantmen break bulk stuff... Where there is a will there is a way....
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Long time lurker, but this topic prompted me to join and comment because I have been pondering about such things lately, so a wall of words follows.

The port is owned by the NT Government. If they want to/can be persuaded to add berthing facilities for the Navy, it is less a matter of commercial concerns than if it was a private entity. To be frank, I would imagine the NT Gov would bend over backwards or forwards to have a significant Navy presence over and above the PBs.

A section of the new wharf area is dedicated for loading/unloading equipment and vehicles onto vessels. How set in stone the plans are I don't know, and I can't find details of how the area will be constructed, but surely a birth for side loading large vessels must be a given as that is how the LSD and LHDs are loaded?

I know this is my first post so I can't post links (just replace the underscore with a period), but a combination of...
* This stylistic plan: www_darwinport_nt_gov_au/sites/default/files/images/map-aerial-large.jpg
* And this annotated aerial photograph: img214_imageshack_us/img214/6214/darwineastarm2030.jpg
...shows the size of the planned Defence hardstand. There is room for some changes there.
If they were interested in shifting from Larrakeyah there is room for the Navy to build a substantial base at a number of points (depths and tides permitting), even after the commercial interests are taken care of.

But I think all this is just of academic interest because I don't think such a basing option would be very desirable for Defence. The theoretically ideal option, I would think, would be Townsville and schedule in additional "diversity training seminars" for the two services based in town. :p: 48 years after Martin Luther King Jr had a dream, and little Army boys and girls can't hold hands with little Navy boys and girls. :(

But getting back to the point, the dedicated amphib unit would get to play often with the equipment and people they are likely to use, and so would the local Army Av unit, the ships are there ready to load up so they can leave as soon as the escort gets there, and they are well positioned for a move into the Pacific or to the northern archipelago.
I would think expanding HMAS Cairns for a LHD home would displace a lot of commercial wharf area in a port where it isn't easily replaceable, unless you wanted to build on the eastern side of Trinity (which would leave either a long drive or short boat ride into Cairns).
Is Brisbane not an option? Perhaps on the north bank, close to the airport and the Meeandah Stores area (which could be a more developed Joint logistics hub). You could call it something way out of left-field, like...HMAS Moreton.

Future basing is going to be a real problem. You have the Navy super-sizing like a fat boy at McDonalds and GI isn't getting any bigger. In fact it may get even smaller if the Sydney tourism drones get their way and turn it into a cruise terminal. That the Fed Gov didn't immediately stamp down hard on the proposal with a loud "No" is just awful. Should have left no wriggle room. It means the State Gov will keep whining away like a brat until someone gives in.

Has there been any musings over an HMAS Coonawarra and Cairns redevelopment, in light of the size of the OCV? It's not just wharf space but the ship lifts and maintenance requirements. Coonawarra would need a major redevelopment and Cairns has only just had one.
There is a long term development plan for east arm and Darwin prot as a whole. Navy, even a LHD, add little in income compared to berthing fees and the activity generated by a commercial port.

Given the money that has been spent developing east arm (this area was largely reclaimed) as a commercial hub the only way Navy will get a foot in is to buy their own facility. Unless trade nose dives you willnot see DPA giving up any of the land set asdie for further expansion.

Defence may build facilities within the port the assist in deployment but home porting generally requires exclusive access somewhere.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Karratha-Dampier is probably a better bet. Already has large shipping facilities.
Massive.............. but designed for the trades they support. The General user wharf at Dampier is cimmtied to commercial work and you could not use the bulk laod berths as the are not desinged as a traditional wharf form (and they are making too much money throwing or, gas, oil,salt and concntrates into ships 24/7).

The port navigation infrastructure is very good and the town services are the best in the region but .............. again............ defence would need to build its own faclity and there are only reserve units in the area currently. Anything large come by sea nayway so it make a poor staging point.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There is a crane in front of the LHD's bridge. So if the landing craft can't enter the well dock if its too large, the landing craft could be loaded by the crane alongside. The crane can also be used at a pier as well, if necessary...

Simple merchantmen break bulk stuff... Where there is a will there is a way....
As a matter of interest do you know what the SWL of that crane is. Bill and Ben had 70 tonne units but I do not know if this is in the same league
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
As a matter of interest do you know what the SWL of that crane is. Bill and Ben had 70 tonne units but I do not know if this is in the same league
I don't know the SWL of the crane but I doubt it is in the league of Bill and Ben's monsters.

I do not see the crane being a massive issue due to the the Vehicle Door/Ramp on the STBD side of the LHD's (of course this could not be used in a LHD/LCH "Rafting up" Scenario.

I would be very interested to fined out if the LCH's can Ramp to Ramp with the LHD's. Not that it will really mater as the LHDs will always have the "Quadruplets" in tow.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
As a matter of interest do you know what the SWL of that crane is. Bill and Ben had 70 tonne units but I do not know if this is in the same league
http://infodefensa.com/wp-content/uploads/JCI_en_v2.pdf

From the above link on page 62, its a 18 tonnes crane, well, on the Juan Carlos I... Should be more than enough to lift an APC and/or a cargo container, but probably not enough to lift a IFV or tank. Lots of good information with this pdf document well worth reading... :D:D:D
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
http://infodefensa.com/wp-content/uploads/JCI_en_v2.pdf

From the above link on page 62, its a 18 tonnes crane, well, on the Juan Carlos I... Should be more than enough to lift an APC and/or a cargo container, but probably not enough to lift a IFV or tank. Lots of good information with this pdf document well worth reading... :D:D:D
Wow that looks like a very interesting document Thanks!....I will have to wade through that on work time...Well it is navy related! :D
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There is a long term development plan for east arm and Darwin prot as a whole. Navy, even a LHD, add little in income compared to berthing fees and the activity generated by a commercial port.

Given the money that has been spent developing east arm (this area was largely reclaimed) as a commercial hub the only way Navy will get a foot in is to buy their own facility. Unless trade nose dives you willnot see DPA giving up any of the land set asdie for further expansion.

Defence may build facilities within the port the assist in deployment but home porting generally requires exclusive access somewhere.
With todays announcement that Obama is heading to Darwin for a quick stop off before Bali for a conference, besides stopping at Mosoons for a couple of drinks then a few teapots down the road im wondering like most if its connected to an annoucement in regards to US forward basing. hell basing a LCS in darwin rather then Singapore as was announced a few months back would be sweet.

If they were to set a US base in the Darwin region, could we make it like Singapore and to our benefit. While it houses a USN contingent for supply and logistics, we use the other side for basing of Patrol boats, future OCV and ill bite into this argument, an amphib(ive been dodging it for now)

OK, on the Amphib side, theres a massive issue of support and the financial side. You cannot just set up a base in some port, either by hi-jacking its commercial berth, which is the only way to do it without building more berths and spending alotta coin which id rather see spent on the fleet without interfering in the already booming mineral resource trade (this $10 bil over 10 years is finally starting to bite, and its not going to work in a couple of years...its Frigging ridiculous atm, but thats another tale) .

For our foreign guests, anything north of the newcastle that has a port of trade, uses it for Mineral Ore, everything from Uranium, Coal and Iron is shipped through our ports. If we set up a naval base to protect these resources, as the govts. review suggests, and place a base north to defend our borders, then we have to push out someone and their trade.

The financial implications are massive. Set up of facilities, from a Fleet Support Unit and all its workshops, mechanical diesal and alike, a comms and FHQ building with Tech, accomadation for the base, the security to protect a major base for defence. If we send Amphibs, it will be cheaper then a majority of the Surface combatants. The requirments for one class of ship are easy, the 5 classes we run, require different people, training and support.

Ok, now for the Amphibs, great idea in theory, but practicality right now is nil, if we do this, then someone will decide we have to many bases, and need to reduce the overheads, and shut it back down. It needs to be done on the cheap, and then run cheap. It costs alot to power a base, and utilise its facilities. When a ships alongside its normally on shore power, thats not exactly cheap to do.

Im all for moving the LHD, LPD north, and leaving the Surface combatnats here in sydney and FBW, this even makes room for 2 subs to come east for interaction with our units. In saying all this, its about 1/3 of the view i hold in pros and cons, so this is my short view, dont ask for the long just yet, wait till ive had a few rums first:cheers
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Karratha-Dampier is probably a better bet. Already has large shipping facilities.
Yes but Karratha is a mining port so the ore ships come first and way more than Exmouth (further down the coast) fuel, stores accommodation everything is going to be very expensive.
 
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