The LHD's are scheduled to enter service in 2014 (HMAS Canberra) & 2016 (HMAS Adelaide). I believe HMAS Choules is to be commissioned this year & enter service early next year, happy to be corrected.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter icelord
- Start date
- Status
Rereading what I've written it may sound ambigious.
I ment Choules would be ready most likely to act on the PNG election (not the LHD as they might only just turned up in OZ for fit out).
However you can start filling calendars up with appointments with the LHD's. Fiji has got to be on that list. Sept 2014 is the election day for Fiji. HMAS Canberra should be operational for that. Presidental East Timor elections are in May 2012 (parl 2013?).
Now some of these may merely be written in a diplomats diary, but they have the potential to mark the start of civil war or violent and regime change or interference. It would be wise to have assets avalible and sitting in the water at these times to evacuate Australians, move troops/policing, support operations in etc. A government caught with pants down, tourists held hostage in hotel rooms, etc would look very bad.
I ment Choules would be ready most likely to act on the PNG election (not the LHD as they might only just turned up in OZ for fit out).
However you can start filling calendars up with appointments with the LHD's. Fiji has got to be on that list. Sept 2014 is the election day for Fiji. HMAS Canberra should be operational for that. Presidental East Timor elections are in May 2012 (parl 2013?).
Now some of these may merely be written in a diplomats diary, but they have the potential to mark the start of civil war or violent and regime change or interference. It would be wise to have assets avalible and sitting in the water at these times to evacuate Australians, move troops/policing, support operations in etc. A government caught with pants down, tourists held hostage in hotel rooms, etc would look very bad.
ADF Ship Choules is scheduled to arrive in Fremantle on our around the middle of December, shortly after which it will be commissioned into the RAN as HMAS Choules and will then sail on to FBE.
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
What would you define as sufficient size? Townsville has almost 200,000 people....
I would prefer Sydney though, if only because it co-locates the LHD's with the rest of the East Coast fleet and I might be able to go check it out (even if only from a distance) if its in Sydney.....
Townsville is nt exactly awash wihe maritime maintenance an repair expertise and what is there services commerical activity................... at quite a price premium where the work is unscheduled.What would you define as sufficient size? Townsville has almost 200,000 people....
I would prefer Sydney though, if only because it co-locates the LHD's with the rest of the East Coast fleet and I might be able to go check it out (even if only from a distance) if its in Sydney.....
I don't see why it should not srvive if properly engineered, hence the two weeks to erect. It would take longer to do it in steel and you have the opiton to remove. Seems to be a good idea given the ship may operate with an LHD and not need the hanger for such operations.
There is no harrys pies in Townsville..What would you define as sufficient size? Townsville has almost 200,000 people....
I would prefer Sydney though, if only because it co-locates the LHD's with the rest of the East Coast fleet and I might be able to go check it out (even if only from a distance) if its in Sydney.....
Sydney is a much bigger city and a much bigger marine city. Sydney has a large marine industry, large port infrastructure, huge commerical base.
Anixtu
New Member
It has already survived several crossings of the North Atlantic and at least one voyage to the Falkland Islands.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I was under the impression that the City/State gov't were trying to close Sydney as a working harbour. Is that not the case, or has commerce and the Federal gov't told state and local officials how much of a DFI that is?
-Cheers
At least a million metropolitan although more is better... 200k may be more than enough for patrol boats, but NOT for major navy fleet units?What would you define as sufficient size? Townsville has almost 200,000 people....
I would prefer Sydney though, if only because it co-locates the LHD's with the rest of the East Coast fleet and I might be able to go check it out (even if only from a distance) if its in Sydney.....
You're saying the RN should abandon Portsmouth for London? Lumping Portsmouth together with its satellite towns, Southampton & Eastleigh, you get less than <750000, & that's for a bigger navy with bigger ships. It doesn't seem to be a problem. The French comfortably fit major fleet units into Toulon, with 170000 people. And so on . . .
BTW, the worlds largest naval base is at Norfolk, Virginia, which (even on the broadest definition of the urban area, which includes "cities" with population densities less than the average for Scotland) has a fraction of the population of Sydney. The real urban area has fewer people than Adelaide. I think the RAN's major units could probably be comfortable somewhere smaller.
BTW, the worlds largest naval base is at Norfolk, Virginia, which (even on the broadest definition of the urban area, which includes "cities" with population densities less than the average for Scotland) has a fraction of the population of Sydney. The real urban area has fewer people than Adelaide. I think the RAN's major units could probably be comfortable somewhere smaller.
London to Portsmith is what 100km?
Brisbane to Townsville is 1337km or 2 hr flight or around 17 hr+ drive.
Portsmith is surrounded by lots of other cities within 100km. Townsville is surrounded by nothing.
The navy already has a remote port that struggles to find and retain staff (FBW)..
USN isn't directly comparible. Garcia and other island bases are easily staffed.. We can't staff near Perth.
Brisbane to Townsville is 1337km or 2 hr flight or around 17 hr+ drive.
Portsmith is surrounded by lots of other cities within 100km. Townsville is surrounded by nothing.
The navy already has a remote port that struggles to find and retain staff (FBW)..
USN isn't directly comparible. Garcia and other island bases are easily staffed.. We can't staff near Perth.
Well the rest of North Queensland isn't exactly nothing and British standards for proximity aren’t the same as Australian. Population in rural Qld is much higher than the rural rest of the country.
Perth is a two million city so it hardly supports this argument. The issue with FBW is mostly concentrated in submarines which is very much a niche issue with having the entire submarine service located away from the rest of the country. The other issue is the huge demand for diesel mechanics for the mining industry that has impact across the Navy.
Townsville has a successful record as an ADF base. Both the Army and Air Force presence has always worked well. The Navy at nearby Cairns has also had a good run. The Great Barrier Reef coast is a very nice place and people like living there. Certainly far more popular than Darwin.
Basing part of the surface fleet there (or Cairns) with career mobility amongst Sydney and Perth will not break down the system. The amphib force (2 LHD, 1 LSD, 6 LSM) will have the same crew levels as four destroyer/frigates and comprise about 20% of the surface ship fleet crews.
True, but its a long bow saying Portsmith works so could Darwin, or Townsville its a bit more complicated than population thresholds.
Townsville (IMO) is near viable, I do think there might be issues. Having the army already up there is a big plus and would make it an obvious home port. At the very least the LHD's would be spending some time up there anyway.
After the LHD's are established (in service) it make make sense to move some amphibious assets up there. Say RAN did get another LHD (3) would it make sense to have 2 ported at Townsville and 1 + Choules at FBE?
Clover more more is on a power trip if it was up to her there wouldn't be any roads for cars in Sydney. The state government seems to have its own plans, which seems to put the local and state against each other. I think Sydney will always be a working harbour. Trade, cruise ships, naval, etc. While we might see lower levels, but its an on going need. New ports and such are so hard to establish for enviromental, local reasons etc. Key Naval sites I don't think will move or be substanially shrunken.
I would hate to see all the productive land around sydney sold off to millionares to build ugly houses and pleasure cruisers marinas.
Absolutely. The issue is all about are defence professionals happy in their hometown? Basing all of the submarine fleet and their training infrastructure in Perth means that a submariner basically has to migrate to WA for their career. This has been untenable because the greater majority of Australian’s want to live near their families in the south east and that isn’t WA. Basing the amphibs in Townsville (or Cairns) just adds an additional homeport to the surface fleet which sailors can rotate to in their careers.
Currently the Navy surface fleet is divided up like so: 53% at Sydney, 28% Perth, 10% Cairns and 9% Darwin. This doesn’t include shore facilities, aviation, divers and the like, just based on raw crew numbers. So it also doesn’t take into account the divide amongst certain trades like mine warfare, HS and weapons which are going to be concentrated in particular bases.
If the 2 LHDs, 1 LSD and four of the new LSMs (keeping two at Darwin to replace the LCHs) were to be located in a new amphibious warfare base the crewing would be divided up like so: 33% at Sydney, 25% Perth, 23% at new amphib base, 9% Cairns and 10% Darwin. This crew figure doesn’t take into account any changes with the AWD, SEA 1180 boat and new AORs.
So a new amphib base would actually be pretty much en par with the current fleet bases determined by crew. Of course not taking into account shore facilities, training, submarines, etc. So a new amphib base is a pretty big deal. But that shouldn’t rule out Townsville. It is a rapidly expanding city that can easily accommodate an additional thousand sailors and their families. It is a pleasant place to live and is unlikely to be rejected by navy crews moving there.
winnyfield
New Member
Not much merchant marine in Sydney harbour but Sydney still has Port Botany which is massive compared to regional ports. Fed govt is funding Port Botany-to-Western Sydney infrastructure
the road runner
Active Member
All Container ships will now be, unloaded and loaded at Port Botany,no container ships aloud in Sydney harbour.The infer structure at Port Botany is massive,new cranes ,new docks and extension of existing docks.Not to mention Port Air ,that is massive.Containers can now be loaded straight onto trains ,or semi trailers.
Port Botany is also close to Sydney International Airport and Domestic Airport
Navy,cruise ships and harbour tours will still be able to ply there trade in Sydney Harbour.
Hampton Roads, the metro area Norfolk, Virginia is apart of has a metro population approaching 1.7 million, easily surpassing my suggestion of a million.... Not only is there a naval base in Norfolk, there is also Little Creek marine base, Virginia Beach naval air station, Langley air force base, and Portsmouth naval shipyard. Furthermore, one of the key US shipyards is based in Newport News, a shipyard which has built every nuclear propelled aircraft carriers.
Its not a small metro area whatsoever... Even the CIA is based in Hampton Roads... Granted there are larger cities on the Atlantic coast, but none have the space for so much infrastructure. There is no doubt there is plenty of naval and air expertise with the civilians of the area. Expertise in spades... A metro area with plenty of job opportunities for military spouses...
There is also a lot of history to the area from the first Jamestown settlement to General Washington's victory of independence at Yorktown... Hampton Roads is NOT Townsville... During the War of 1812 the British overran the area, burning the White House and the Capitol building, among others, but Fort McHenry in Baltimore held...
Townsville currently supports Army's 3 Brigade, 11 Brigade, 5 Aviation Regiment and RAAF Base Townsville, which maintains 38 Sqn, quite a few other combat support units as well as regular fighter detachments.
The port of Townsville is regularly utilised by large visiting RAN and US ships as well as significant numbers of even larger civilian cargo carriers as it is the largest port in Northern Queensland and one of Qld's main hubs for bulk mineral exports, so access in and out would be no great issue, I shouldn't think...
Townsville could manage a couple of LHD's permanently berthing there IMHO and from a training and operational view, it would make sense locating them in the same area the troops, helos and bulk of the equipment to be used on them is located...
The port of Townsville is regularly utilised by large visiting RAN and US ships as well as significant numbers of even larger civilian cargo carriers as it is the largest port in Northern Queensland and one of Qld's main hubs for bulk mineral exports, so access in and out would be no great issue, I shouldn't think...
Townsville could manage a couple of LHD's permanently berthing there IMHO and from a training and operational view, it would make sense locating them in the same area the troops, helos and bulk of the equipment to be used on them is located...
I don’t think anyone here mistook Townsville for Norfolk. By the way, Townsville has history too. And while Townsville is smaller than Norfolk in proportion to the population of the country it is twice as big. Plus since no one is planning on basing a fleet of super carriers there just a couple of LHDs a direct comparison is out of place.
- Status