Jf-17 thunder block-2 is under construction in real ????

[Tango1992]

There has been a great influence in south Asia about this new 4.5 generation fighter jet avionics and its construction after JF-17 block 1
JF-17 thunder block-2 is said to be having a more advanced AESA radar than block-1...it is said to have 11 hard points and the thing astonishing me was that it will be a stealth variant(not stealth) and a TVC supported modified engine WS-13
so i wanna ask that if someone have a real point about its existence?

 

[Twinblade]

There has been a great influence in south Asia about this new 4.5 generation fighter jet avionics and its construction after JF-17 block 1
JF-17 thunder block-2 is said to be having a more advanced AESA radar than block-1...it is said to have 11 hard points and the thing astonishing me was that it will be a stealth variant(not stealth) and a TVC supported modified engine WS-13
so i wanna ask that if someone have a real point about its existence?

The first one is JSF and the other one is graphic art

 

[SpudmanWP]

They are both photoshopped (no, the 1st is not JSF).

 

[Twinblade]

They are both photoshopped (no, the 1st is not JSF).

Yeah, you are right the first one is a PSed jf-17. Rayrubik on keypubs found the base picture http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FyUSaPdudTU/TPwunDe03VI/AAAAAAAAAKE/3KndHQLvUuA/s1600/JF-17+Thunder+Fighter+Jets+from+No.+26+Squadron+%2527Black+Spiders%2527+in+Zhuhai+Air+Show+2010+%25282%2529.jpg

 

[artstyle]

There has been a great influence in south Asia about this new 4.5 generation fighter jet avionics and its construction after JF-17 block 1

i dont call it a 4.5 gen or 4++ generation fighter . it is way behind rafales or typoons which are usually refered as 4.5 gen.and talking about its great influence in south asia ,there is no such thing that much influence .

the block 1- is not even completely a fly-by-wire one , is there any effort to make the block 2 a complete fly by wire one??

also all the upgrades like t.v.c or A E S A or block-1 version is having 7 hard points and if they are increasing it to 11 hard points then they have to strengthen the fuselage and structural design .. all these things cost something, right ?? ,
block-1 was offered at some ~ 16 mil $
beco'z of this most countries like egypt, bangladesh, african and south .asian countries (which are having low defence budget spending)are trying to buy this
because it is filling the roll of a fighter (not exactly) and comes cheaply. but the block 2 version( if really being developed as you said ) will cost more which could also show some effect on export, so the chineese who made this jf-17 only to export will also consider this .

 

[Tango1992]

well
Block 1: US$15–20 million (estimated)
Block 2: US$20–25 million
i will surely like to call JF-17 thunder block-2 a 4.5 generation fighter..
the specification i am provided by well-vetted sources from Pakdef about block-2 are more powerful weapon mission management computer, store management system, powerful Defense Aid System including MAWS new version SE-3, superior avionics, communication suite, improved full spectrum of electronic warfare suite, radar could be small AESA of J-10 or KLJ-7B version with more range, modes, anti jamming, composite will increase from 8 to 30 or 40% allowing weight reduction and chin mounted hard point (s), IRST is there most likely. It is an overall improvement of first batch.
block-2 will have AESA radars similar to those observed on the J-10B. The integrated avionics, sensors and EW suite is entirely Chinese and is believed to be at the level of Europes best planes. The AESA radar is a slightly smaller version of the one being utilized for the J-10B. The radar is highly sophisticated and its installation is beyond the present capacity at PAC Kamra and will thus require the aircraft to take a trip to Nanjing, China.
The Block II will be the standard version to be used in the PAF with the older Block I
JF-17 Block 2 – Ordered by the PAF in 2011, includes "enhanced features" Believed to be fitted with a Chinese AESA radar, Infra-red search and track (IRST) system and improved electronic counter-measures (ECM) suite. Also believed to incorporate greater use of composite materials for reducing airframe weight and possibly a thrust vector control (TVC) engine.
What else required for a 4.5 generation fighter??
i guess its entire configuration is totally suitable to meet Rafael and Eurofighters
please i will like expertise to comment on this thread...
thankyou

 

[legoboy]

A Gen 4.5 fighter for less than $30 million, now thats bound to put the Europeans out of business.

I can't believe the Typhoon and Mirage cost SOOO much money.

 

[gf0012-aust]

A Gen 4.5 fighter for less than $30 million, now thats bound to put the Europeans out of business.

I can't believe the Typhoon and Mirage cost SOOO much money.

Its got little to do with cost

It's about capability and the integration of that capability into the overall force capability.

Its pretty damn useless having a $30m fighter that can't use systems that are required to be able to fight wwithin the rest of yours and your allies force construct.

In addition, its about the requirements and confidence that the user is going to have about using a product that lacks engineering and/or design pedigree relevant to their needs.

cost is the lowest common denominator when you do your initial platform evaluations - in fact we exclude any cost or financial data when evaluating systems so that the evaluation team don't get sidetracked or polluted by some notion of cost impact.

Cost is a consideration mainly at the logistics tail - and is usually 50% min of the initial procurement cost over the life of the platform.

You can't dumb down platform costs as a measure of potential capability - and it does not mean that you have more money left over to integrate your preferred gear (as the indians have discovered a few times)

 

[Tango1992]

A Gen 4.5 fighter for less than $30 million, now thats bound to put the Europeans out of business.

I can't believe the Typhoon and Mirage cost SOOO much money.

indeed...jf-17 thunder block-1 being a 4th generation fighter cost just 20$ million..if we look at the latest 4th generation jets of the same class then jf-17 thunder is the most cost effective and a great bird...have a look at LCA tejas which was started 3 decades ago and still did'nt get its final clearance for flights uptill now
and now the budget for jf-17 thunder block-2 is set to be just 25$ million being a 4.5 generation fighter

 

[gf0012-aust]

well
jf-17 thunder block-2 configuration makes it comparable to Ef2000 or Rafale
lets see...let it be operational first

How? what technical evidence is there of any performance and/or capability gap analysis done against either euro platform.

there is none - and thats because none exists.

at a technical detail and capability comparison, NONE of that is in the public domain

 

[gf0012-aust]

We are getting sidetracked here. Tango1992 wanted to know if anyone had some information on the JF-17 block-2 but he already has "well-vetted sources" so, what are we discussing here?

Sorry, "well vetted" is crap.

There is NONE in the public domain, and if someone is coming onto the internet proclaiming privileged info then that is just errant nonsense.

I'd expect anyone who wanted to enthusiastically make such claims to demonstrate a degree of technical expertise and literacy and being able to articulate such benefits in a manner where any number of the defence professional SME's in here could look at the response and start critiquing it at the technology level.

I'd expect at a minimum someone with such claims to be able to provide a coherent gap analysis of the developments.

I have not seen a scintilla of technical comprehension and/or awareness of the issues or technical nuances demonstrated to date.

Bear in mind that in this forum there are rated fighter pilots who have served or who are currently serving and who fly current hi-technology assets, there are ewarfare specialists, there are people who have done tac planning, there are people who have done design and development, there are aircraft engineers in here, and there is no shortage of people who have engineering, technical or industry involvement. All of those people have had their claims to expertise and/or involvement validated.

If someone claims proficiency and expertise in an area, then these people will sniff out whether its robust and credible within a very narrow window of time,

Claims are claims, they have to stand and pass the BS test.

 

[legoboy]

Why doesn't China use the JF-17 that it designed itself?

China designed the JF-17 with Pakistan and must have spent millions and millions of dollars developing it, only not to use it ?

Pakistan is buying it in masses and other air forces seem interested in it so the fighter is battle worthy.

Yet China doesn't plan on introducing itself and YET is still upgrading the JF-17(Apparently a stealth variant and upgraded JF-17's are being designed).

Was the JF-17 all along an export intended jet which China planned on making large profits from ? I mean Pakistan has order 250 of them. That's plenty of money !. The low cost means that many air forces around the world can buy a fourth generation jet for a low cost making it very attractive.

 

[thrall]

its a pakistan based fighter

the pac jf-17 or the CAC FC-1 Xiaolong was specifically made as per the requirements of the aging pakistani fleet comprising of Dassault Mirage III/5, Chengdu F-7 .
considering the state pakistan is in , it probably needed affordable , cheap to maintain 4th generation multi role combat aircraft.

but its not as though only pakistan is vying for this fighter . the egyptian military is planning to procure the jf 17 in co-operation with pakistan. HELL even the azerbaijani , sudanese and zimbabwe have ordered the jf 17's, iran , bangladesh and nigeria are potential buyers.

as far as china not procuring the jf 17 is concernd , it probably is betting on its FGFA j20 .
peace out!!!!

 

[koxinga]

China designed the JF-17 with Pakistan and must have spent millions and millions of dollars developing it, only not to use it ?

Pakistan is buying it in masses and other air forces seem interested in it so the fighter is battle worthy.

Yet China doesn't plan on introducing itself and YET is still upgrading the JF-17(Apparently a stealth variant and upgraded JF-17's are being designed).

Was the JF-17 all along an export intended jet which China planned on making large profits from ? I mean Pakistan has order 250 of them. That's plenty of money !. The low cost means that many air forces around the world can buy a fourth generation jet for a low cost making it very attractive.

J-10 and the J-11 family share significant sub-component commonalities. Engines, , chinese OEPS-27 etc. We don't know the actual cost of each of the platform but it would require significant incentive for them to introduce another platform, whether is that from a cost perspective or a capability perspective.

The question to ask is, does the JF-17 offer the sort of capability at the sort of price to warrant it's purchase?

 

[T.C.P]

One has to ask the question does the JF-17 provide any extra capability to the PLAAF that the current and under development air craft don't? Is there any need for the JF-17 in the PLAAF?

With su-30s/27s, J-11A/BS and J-10Bs and other air craft under development like the J-10 and so called J-xx, China already has enough different type pf fighters, would it want to add another 4th gen air craft to its list.

 

[Feanor]

Thread moved to appropriate forum.

 

[Twinblade]

HELL even the azerbaijani , sudanese and zimbabwe have ordered the jf 17's.....

I wasn't aware of any such developments. Is there any news article pointing to the same ?

 

[Rickyrab]

the pac jf-17 or the CAC FC-1 Xiaolong was specifically made as per the requirements of the aging pakistani fleet comprising of Dassault Mirage III/5, Chengdu F-7 .
considering the state pakistan is in , it probably needed affordable , cheap to maintain 4th generation multi role combat aircraft.

but its not as though only pakistan is vying for this fighter . the egyptian military is planning to procure the jf 17 in co-operation with pakistan. HELL even the azerbaijani , sudanese and zimbabwe have ordered the jf 17's, iran , bangladesh and nigeria are potential buyers.

as far as china not procuring the jf 17 is concernd , it probably is betting on its FGFA j20 .
peace out!!!!

There may be a deeper reason for not using a product one designed for another air force. After all, China, being an independent country with aspirations of power, has its own air force. Why should it retain the same airplane for itself that it sells to potential competitors? Why not simply keep superior tech or designs for itself and sell inferior designs to other countries?

 

[Ananda]

China designed the JF-17 with Pakistan and must have spent millions and millions of dollars developing it, only not to use it ?

Can you put something that show JF-17 can do better than J-10 (which more and more become PLAF standard Fighters replacing J-7) ?
In other word, why PLAF has to commit them-self building another logistic and support infrastructure for JF-17, when they already have J-10 ?

 

[PCShogun]

China designed the JF-17 with Pakistan and must have spent millions and millions of dollars developing it, only not to use it ?

Pakistan is buying it in masses and other air forces seem interested in it so the fighter is battle worthy.

Yet China doesn't plan on introducing itself and YET is still upgrading the JF-17(Apparently a stealth variant and upgraded JF-17's are being designed).

Was the JF-17 all along an export intended jet which China planned on making large profits from ? I mean Pakistan has order 250 of them. That's plenty of money !. The low cost means that many air forces around the world can buy a fourth generation jet for a low cost making it very attractive.

Asian Defense News was VERY critical of the JF-17, Calling it the "Junk Fighter 17" and referring to its avionics as being a "Pirated software copy", its speed of Mach 1.6 as being slower than the F-7 (a Mig-21 derivative) it replaces, and to its structural design deficiency being such that the wings may take separate trajectories under anything more than an 8G load.

But, one bad review does not a bad airplane make. The SU-30K was also considered a "Bad" plane when it first appeared. But with current avionics and thrust vector, the MKI is a totally different beast. Pakistan will harness valuable experience with the JF-17 in areas of aircraft manufacturing, and will gain an increased level of American independence at a time when American relations with Pakistan is flagging. Despite any shortcomings that may or may not be identified, the JF-17 is still an improvement over the current Pakistani aircraft in service, with the exception of its last batch of F-16's. At a cost of about $15 million USD(possibly as low as $12 million), its still millions cheaper than the F-16 C/D which the United States refused to sell Pakistan as part of the weapons embargo of the 90's, and no longer delivers spare parts for.

All this said, I have not yet answered your original question. Why IS China not using the JF-17 for themselves? Its because the Chinese already have a multi-role combat aircraft in its J-10A. Reportedly with slightly better performance than the JF-17, but with a higher per unit price tag. China would not need an additional aircraft to perform the same role. The J-20 is China's current Stealth entry and would most likely not be interested in a new design while still completing the development of its first one. However, by winning over former U.S. and Soviet weapons customers, China expands their influence into areas formerly denied them. Where before we compared the latest American and Russian designs, now we are all taking about the Chinese.