Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Massive]

Question for Abe

Just to help some of the understanding of the new structure attached is a year old version of the new Multi Role Manoeuvre Brigade order of battle.

It‘s combat sub-units will include:

3 Armd Cav Sqn (or 2 Cav ‘ISR’ Sqn and 1 Cav ‘Lift’ Sqn)
1 M1 Tank Sqn
1 Mech ‘Fires Control’ Bty
2 ‘Fires Control’ Bty
9 Inf Coy
2 M777 155mm Tp
1 SPG 155mm Tp
3 Cbt Engr Tp
2 Mech Cbt Engr Tp
2 Inf Recce/Sniper Pltn
2 Javelin DFSW Pltn
2 81mm Mortar Pltn

Thanks for providing this structure Abe.

How do they get 9 infantry companies?

I can get to 8 easily. Where's the other one?

Apologies if I have missed something obvious. Happens often...

Regards,

Massive

 

[Volkodav]

@Volkodav
I fully understand the important role light recce and sniper forces can play. And because of this I support the idea if pooling these assets. Attach them when needed so they don't sit idle when the current infantrie's role doesn't fit and can be used to their full potential.

The infantry bns get their Cav, Arty or Helicopter assets attached according to their missions so why not other stuff like light recce, snipers or mortars.

IMO it's much easier to attach all the needed assets to a pure core battalion of light infantry than having several special capabilities in it from the start but which may or may not be usefull for the next operation.

For a relatively small army which nevertheless wants to cover a wide variety of possible operations such a mix and match system with as many "pure" units as possible is IMO a good thing.

Oh ok sorry I misunderstood what you were suggesting.

Looking at it that way does make sense. It could almost be argued that the RAR Btns should concentrate their support companies into support Btns with one of these Btns attached to each Brigade. When a Mech Battle Group is required they work with RAAC when a LI BG is needed the LI support elements are attached, i.e. snipers, rec, DFS, mortars. This would make for a very boring RAR Btn though consisting only of Rifle Companies and standardised Infantry Platoons.

As an aside during WWII when the British Army Cavalry Regiments, previously assigned as divisional rec, were reorganised as tank regiments the rec role passed to the new specially formed Reconnaissance Corps battalions with one assigned to each Infantry Division. These Reconnaissance Battalions were formed from the reconnaissance, support and A/T elements from within the division.

 

[Jhom]

Since a few days ago I´ve been reading about the Australian Army equipment, I saw very interesting things, but thing that most impresed me was the apparent lack of AAA artillery and SAM missiles? did I missed something or is this real? the only air defense that that army has is the RB-70?

Then I realised that all the remaining stuff should be in the RAAF, but I couldnt find anything on the RAAF inventory appart for the things I allready know about.

Can any australian give me an answer? is the RB-70 the only SAM in the army´s inventory?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Yep Army's 16 Air Defence Regiment is tasked in wartime to provide tactical air defence to army manouvre units. There are some 30 or more RBS-70 launchers and a large stock of the Bolide missilein. With special Landrover 6x6 vehicles for mobility which are about to be replaced by a new version of the Bushmaster PMV. Organisation is two batteries each with three troops of five launchers and a single PSTAR mobile radar. Each troop will provide air defence to a battle group (battalion) sized unit.


Apart from 16 AD Regt the only surface to air missile in Australian use was a number of Bloodhound Mk 1s operated by the RAAF in the 1960s. Theatre and national level air defence is an Air Force responsibility and they chose to acheive it with fighter jets.

 

[Para 3]

Apart from 16 AD Regt the only surface to air missile in Australian use was a number of Bloodhound Mk 1s operated by the RAAF in the 1960s. Theatre and national level air defence is an Air Force responsibility and they chose to acheive it with fighter jets.

Rapier was also in service with 16 AD - no longer in service

 

[Jhom]

Yep Army's 16 Air Defence Regiment is tasked in wartime to provide tactical air defence to army manouvre units. There are some 30 or more RBS-70 launchers and a large stock of the Bolide missilein. With special Landrover 6x6 vehicles for mobility which are about to be replaced by a new version of the Bushmaster PMV. Organisation is two batteries each with three troops of five launchers and a single PSTAR mobile radar. Each troop will provide air defence to a battle group (battalion) sized unit.


Apart from 16 AD Regt the only surface to air missile in Australian use was a number of Bloodhound Mk 1s operated by the RAAF in the 1960s. Theatre and national level air defence is an Air Force responsibility and they chose to acheive it with fighter jets.

Thanks for the quick reply, but since I wrote the previous post I realised that the Australian army isnt the kind of heavy armored army that I am used to, and that leans more towards high mobile ligth infantry and vehicles.

But if this is true I think that some mobile AAA system will come handy when you dont have air support... at least for the 1st Brigade, wich seems to aglomerate most of the armoured vehicles, but that is just my opinion.

P.D. I know that the australian coast line is huge, but no coastal batteries at all?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Thanks for the quick reply, but since I wrote the previous post I realised that the Australian army isnt the kind of heavy armored army that I am used to, and that leans more towards high mobile ligth infantry and vehicles.

Not quite. The Australian Army is what we call a ‘medium weight army’ which combines both heavy (tanks, etc) and light (foot infantry) to win fights. The key difference is the army is designed not to fight against mechanised forces in open terrain but rather high end insurgents in complex terrain. Of course there is a lot of capability that can be used for the high intensity fights but if we have to do that there is an expectation that a few additional systems will be acquired.

But if this is true I think that some mobile AAA system will come handy when you dont have air support... at least for the 1st Brigade, wich seems to aglomerate most of the armoured vehicles, but that is just my opinion.

Well RBS70 is extremely mobile. Even with a truck mounted system it can be in and out of action as fast as many self propelled anti aircraft systems. It just can’t be used from under armour. There was a major project to acquire a new ADA system 10 years ago but it was cancelled because it realistically wasn’t highly needed. This would also looked at a much more effective system like SLAMRAAM but would have been essentially a theatre level ADA sysem. Now the replacement project for the RBS70 is looking at providing both a C-RAM and an ADA capability on a mobile armoured platform. This will be in service in the 2020s.

P.D. I know that the australian coast line is huge, but no coastal batteries at all?

We may have a huge coastline but most of it just seperates uninhabited desert from the ocean, there is no nearby sea threat and it is basically without anywhere to land on. Namibia needs no coastal defences for the Skelton Coast and neither does Australia for much of our littoral. Plus of course the complete lack of any kind of realistic threat makes the issue moot. Even without a threat there is no nearby capability to conduct a landing. Plus, finally, the navy provides a mobile source of anti ship missiles that can displace far quicker from part of our massive coastline than any land based coast defence system.

 

[the road runner]

Plus, finally, the navy provides a mobile source of anti ship missiles that can displace far quicker from part of our massive coastline than any land based coast defence system.

The Navy also uses ESSM to act as a mobile AD system,instead of using a land based systems such as patriot?I assume that, Australia being able to put a Anzac Frigate on any part of its coast while supported with F-18, a capability like Patriot would be a waste of money and also doubling up on a capability?

OR dose Australia need a Long Range AD system/Patriot for Army?

 

[StingrayOZ]

The navy can offer anything Australia needs. There aren't going to be battles in inland Australia. There is literally nothing there, and even to get there they would have to go across open ocean. Australia's long range radar systems give us more than enough warning to put jets into the air to intercept anything remotely nearby. Most likely it would be intercepted on the edge of Australias EEZ.

That said the navy is a little short in that department. However the AWD's will be a centre peice of any air defence within the region. Offering most likely PAC-3 which will be comparible to any land based patriot system, but also coupled with other weapon and sensor systems. As the region is mostly islands ships provide a far superior way to deploy air defences. For eg PNG has essentially no roads or airstrips. The pacific rim is speckled with islands.
The navy can cover army coastal deployments, combined what the army already has will cover most deployments. Continental deployements would only be done with other nations would excel in this capability.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Thanks for providing this structure Abe.

How do they get 9 infantry companies?

I can get to 8 easily. Where's the other one?

Apologies if I have missed something obvious. Happens often...

I just saw this. Sorry that was my mistake there will only be six inf coy from two battalions in the new brigade.

 

[StevoJH]

3 Australian Soldiers killed and 6 more wounded due to an afghanistan soldier shooting them all. An ANA Officer was also shot and wounded.

ANA Solider responsible was shot and killed in response. He apparrently had 3 years experience in the ANA.

RIP Diggers, condolences to the families and hopefully the other 6 Australian and 1 Afghanistan Army soldiers have a full recovery.

 

[the road runner]

This is the second time an ANA soldier has Murdered Australian Diggers.
My condolences to the family's who have lost love ones.A fast recovery for the wounded.:mad3

With this incident,how could the Diggers ever trust the ANA again?A real tough assignment and i hope the ANA take the lead and start cleaning out there house.

If this type of Tactic keeps happening i for one would want the troops to come home!
Betrayal like this must be a hard pill to swallow for the Diggers.

 

[Kirkzzy]

This is the second time an ANA soldier has Murdered Australian Diggers.
My condolences to the family's who have lost love ones.A fast recovery for the wounded.:mad3

With this incident,how could the Diggers ever trust the ANA again?A real tough assignment and i hope the ANA take the lead and start cleaning out there house.

If this type of Tactic keeps happening i for one would want the troops to come home!
Betrayal like this must be a hard pill to swallow for the Diggers.

I don't think its the ANA's fault. The country is filled with corruption and they need every available man they can get.. I don't think they do background checks on their recruits likes we do. As for the Diggers... well its only natural that they would feel uneasy over this.

 

[the road runner]

I don't think its the ANA's fault. The country is filled with corruption and they need every available man they can get.. I don't think they do background checks on their recruits likes we do. As for the Diggers... well its only natural that they would feel uneasy over this.

Maybe its time they started to do Background checks?Could we not train "X" amount of troops who have had a Background check,then those "X" troops train the main part of the Afghan army?

The Brass must be thinking of the safety of Diggers ,as this is the second time an ANA soldier has Murdered Diggers.


Im not having a go mate,im just ranting,this really pisses me off.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I think it’s pretty safe to assume Road Runner that background checks and loyalty assessments are conducted by the ANA on their own soldiers as well as can be done in a place like Afghanistan. However when dealing with people from the third world because of their lifelong proximity to death and violence they are far more likely to respond to any perceived slight or grievance with lethal violence than people in our own society. Even if it results in their own death. There is no indication that the killer in this situation was a Taliban plant as the same in the previous shooting. If they were a Taliban plant you would probably have seen a much higher death toll via a suicide bombing in a command post or mess hall. This is as unfortunate as it is to say just one of those things that comes from the mission.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

[

I don't think they do background checks on their recruits likes we do. As for the Diggers... well its only natural that they would feel uneasy over this.

That’s just total bullshit Kirk. A background check in Australia is ‘have you lived with any foreigners the past 10 years’. In Afghanistan they will talk to your village chief and know everything there is to know about you and your family for a 100 years.

 

[Kirkzzy]

[

That’s just total bullshit Kirk. A background check in Australia is ‘have you lived with any foreigners the past 10 years’. In Afghanistan they will talk to your village chief and know everything there is to know about you and your family for a 100 years.

Sorry, its just the ANA doesn't strike me as that professional from the interviews I've seen that follow Australian soldiers, first hand account books i've read and news pieces i've read (even with all the spin)

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Sorry, its just the ANA doesn't strike me as that professional from the interviews I've seen that follow Australian soldiers, first hand account books i've read and news pieces i've read (even with all the spin)

They may or may not be professional but that doesn't mean in a third world village based society they don't know a crap load more about their recruits than we do in suburbia.

 

[Kirkzzy]

They may or may not be professional but that doesn't mean in a third world village based society they don't know a crap load more about their recruits than we do in suburbia.

I'm just pointing out desertion is not uncommon and that they have a long way to go.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I'm just pointing out desertion is not uncommon and that they have a long way to go.

Desertion is high because they are dirt poor. But what does this have to do with opening up on their allies?