The Indonesian Army

[koxinga]

Something interesting just turn up. Reminds me of the AMX-VCI.
Rather light and small, possibly just a protoype.

 

[Ananda]

Something interesting just turn up. Reminds me of the AMX-VCI.
Rather light and small, possibly just a protoype.

It's more like they (Pindad) use BMP-2 as 'base design' or even the old BTR-50. Quite interesting since at the same time Korean K-21 seems making way for production cooperation with Pindad. Still it's good for Pindad to try their own design.

With the dimensions, it remind me more to German's Weasel or Alvis Scorpion/Stormer family.

 

[swerve]

It's over twice the weight of a Wiesel 2, up to 4 times the weight of a Wiesel 1. 2 metres longer & a metre wider than a Wiesel 2. It's in the same size & weight range as a Stormer, slightly lighter than AMX-VCI.

Note that although developed from CVR(T) the Stormer is longer (one more road wheel), wider, and a lot heavier than the Scorpion & other CVR(T) variants.

BTR-50 is about the same weight as AMX-VCI, but significantly bigger. It needed a high-volume hull because it was designed to float.

 

[pasukangeraktjepat]

From Indonesian Army official website via Google translate :

WEBSITE TENTARA NASIONAL INDONESIA

Commander of Military District Command (KODIM) 0903/Tanjung Selor ,Lt. Col. Gema Repelita accompanying team of Army Headquarters (Mabesad) review development plans of Army Cavalry Battalion (YONKAV) in the village of Gunung Sari, Subdistrict Tanjung Selor, Bulungan regency, East Kalimantan. Activities of the review lasts two days from March 17 until October 18, 2011.
..................................................................................................
Yonkav-Kodam (Military Area Command) VI / MLW will be built in 2012 alongside Infantry Brigade Command 24/BC and planned to use Leopard 2 main battle tank type made in Germany with 62.3 ton weight specifications, length 9.97 meters, 3.75 meters wide.

i'll keep my finger crossed until i can see the Leos here

 

[Ananda]

From Indonesian Army official website via Google translate :

WEBSITE TENTARA NASIONAL INDONESIA


i'll keep my finger crossed until i can see the Leos here

This statement come from someone on Middle level, and not from a General. However being put on the official Army website and also Mulawarman Military District website (Kodam VI/Mulawarman - DANDIM 0903/TSR DAMPINGI TIM MABESAD TINJAU RENCANA PEMBANGUNAN BATALYON KAVELERI DI TANJUNG SELOR).

Supposedly this can happen if the Generals give the ok. This already create commotions on local Military forums. Putting the MBT on East Kalimantan, for me is going to be logistical nightmare, considering the lack of infrastructure there. Putting light armored assets in East Kalimantan will be easier (in my opinion) to support since the infrastructure that's going to be prepared will be less demanding.

Also where this Leo 2 going to come ? The Dutch or Germans surpluses ? The Dutch already put their Leo 2 in the storage, but they (the Dutch) don't say anything those Leo 2 will be for sale. Is the Germans still have surpluses of Leo 2 ?
With so many factors still there, I just wandering why they dared put this statement on official web sites

Oohhh Wellll, This is Indonesia, anything still possible to be something else

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

This statement come from someone on Middle level, and not from a General. However being put on the official Army website and also Mulawarman Military District website (Kodam VI/Mulawarman - DANDIM 0903/TSR DAMPINGI TIM MABESAD TINJAU RENCANA PEMBANGUNAN BATALYON KAVELERI DI TANJUNG SELOR).

Supposedly this can happen if the Generals give the ok. This already create commotions on local Military forums. Putting the MBT on East Kalimantan, for me is going to be logistical nightmare, considering the lack of infrastructure there. Putting light armored assets in East Kalimantan will be easier (in my opinion) to support since the infrastructure that's going to be prepared will be less demanding.

Also where this Leo 2 going to come ? The Dutch or Germans surpluses ? The Dutch already put their Leo 2 in the storage, but they (the Dutch) don't say anything those Leo 2 will be for sale. Is the Germans still have surpluses of Leo 2 ?
With so many factors still there, I just wandering why they dared put this statement on official web sites

Oohhh Wellll, This is Indonesia, anything still possible to be something else

Yes, everything is possible here.
I also have my doubt about the effectiveness of a MBT in our country. Yes its maybe usefull, but something like a BMP-3F or a Panhard VBL with anti-tank missiles is much more flexible and useful in our country (and cheaper to acquire and to maintain).
Its also not a from highest priority in my opinion, we still dont have a capable air defence system, only some low budget stuff against low and slow flying air targets.

 

[Ananda]

Yes, everything is possible here.
I also have my doubt about the effectiveness of a MBT in our country. Yes its maybe usefull, but something like a BMP-3F or a Panhard VBL with anti-tank missiles is much more flexible and useful in our country (and cheaper to acquire and to maintain).
Its also not a from highest priority in my opinion, we still dont have a capable air defence system, only some low budget stuff against low and slow flying air targets.

Surpluses MBT's getting cheaper, thus become more affordable (at least in procurement) for developing nations. Even Korean ROTEM now are offering packages for upgrading their K1A1 with K2 technology with more attractive prices.

If TNI really goes with Leo 2, it's more because they found good offer for surplus Leo 2 (in which from whose inventories still a questions). Still it will be logistical nightmare if they put it in Kalimantan/Borneo at least in my opinion. Also with AMX-13 upgrades program still continued, means they have to prepared for 105mm and 120 mm plus 90 mm and 100 mm they still used on Armored vehicles.

Pindad now already manufactured 105 mm ammo, but mostly for Artillery. For the tanks they still have to rely with outsides sources. In short if they goes for Leo 2, then TNI has to prepared 120 mm (Leo 2), 105 mm (AMX-13), 100 mm (BMP 3F), and 90 mm (PT-76, Scorpion, etc) ammo for their tanks in the inventory. That's only talking on ammo. After so many years, why they still want to complicate the logistics..hmmmffhhhh

 

[koxinga]

There are at least 60 ex-Dutch Leopard 2s (A6)which were removed from their arsenal in May this year. As for ex-Germany, I think there are still old A4 stock (Singapore) around.

 

[STURM]

Ananda,

If indeed Leopards 2s are bought, the AMX-13s could be retired as the fire support role can still be performed by the 90mm Scorpions. If MBTS are bought, logic would dictate that these are placed where Indonesia actually has land borders. Putting them on the Kalimantan border would make sense as Indonesia has a dispute with Malaysia in the Ambalat area and there is no requirement for MBTS on the East Timor or West Irian border. Placing them in East Kalimatan however could send the wrong message to the Malaysians at a time when both countries are trying to improve relations due to a number of reasons. Also is East Kalimantan on the Indonesian side covered by a proper road network ?

 

[DavidDCM]

Politics, not logic determine where new weapon systems are stationed. Every modern weapon system gets stationed on Java first. Anoa, Scorpion 90, FH2000, BMP-3 and so on. You find them on Java and nowhere else.

I find it hard to believe that this claim contains any truth. I would even bet a significant amount of money that this talk was nothing more but wishful thinking by that Lieutenant Colonel, and that nothing will happen.

 

[koxinga]

Ananda,
the AMX-13s could be retired as the fire support role can still be performed by the 90mm Scorpions.

Seems unlikely as the AMX-13 upgrading program with Sabiex is going on.

I find it hard to believe that this claim contains any truth. I would even bet a significant amount of money that this talk was nothing more but wishful thinking by that Lieutenant Colonel, and that nothing will happen.

Surprisingly enough, I do agree. TNI-AD's armoured program does not seem to include a MBT in the near future based on everything I have read so far. Rather, it's geared towards a more light and mobile capability, organic to a mechanized regiment.

Anyway, another Anoa variant with a 20mm turret was photographed recently. It seems that Pindad is experimenting with different variants. But are there plans to purchase them?

 

[DavidDCM]

If such a deal with national and international ramifications would be made, it would not be the task of a generic infantry officer to announce it. It would be the president himself, the defence minister or at the very least the commanding general of the army who would reveal such a deal to the public. Yet, none of these three persons has commented on this issue. And neither did any of the potential supplier nations, nor any company that would be involved, nor any reputable media institution.
This fact alone is a very clear indicator.

 

[STURM]

Politics, not logic determine where new weapon systems are stationed.

You're absolutely right. Politics and also threat perceptions.

After losing Sipadan and Ligitan the Indonesians are extremely sensitive to the Ambalat issue, as shown by the media and public reactions following events in 2005. Since then, the TNI has publicly announced moves to strengthen its presence in the area. A command that was dissolved in 1984 has been re-stablished to control East Kalimantan and an airfield is being built in the Tarakan area.

 

[StevoJH]

Given the terrain of indonesia, I don't see how the procurement of anything heavier then a light IMV/MRAP or APC can be justified.

Can the roads and bridges in Indonesia even support a modern MBT outside the more heavily populated areas? Who are they going to use it on?

 

[STURM]

Can the roads and bridges in Indonesia even support a modern MBT outside the more heavily populated areas?

MBTs, especially Russian designed ones that have a weight of less than 50 tonnes, can operate along highways, roads, urban areas and even in areas where there is no proper road network. Operating a Leopard 2 in rural areas might be a bit tricky though. Then again the Yanks and Aussies operated M-48s, M-60s and Centurions in Vietnam, in areas that had no proper roads. But they also had excellent engineering support.

Who are they going to use it on?

Technically they are going to use it against no one as Indonesia does not face any external threats. The purchase of MBTs, if it happens, can be described as part of the TNI-ADs ongoing modernisation efforts.

 

[koxinga]

MBTs, especially Russian designed ones that have a weight of less than 50 tonnes, can operate along highways, roads, urban areas and even in areas where there is no proper road network. Operating a Leopard 2 in rural areas might be a bit tricky though. Then again the Yanks and Aussies operated M-48s, M-60s and Centurions in Vietnam, in areas that had no proper roads. But they also had excellent engineering support.

Perhaps ground pressure might be a better measure whether MBTs can operate there rather than vehicle weight. I do recall it was comparable to a Russian T-series MBT despite of a higher combat weight. One of the reasons the Singaporeans chose the Leopard 2.

As for having them on Kalimantan, that is a political decision although operationally, MAF does not operate any significant heavy assets there. Their PT-91s are all on Peninsular Malaysia.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

"I find it hard to believe that this claim contains any truth. I would even bet a significant amount of money that this talk was nothing more but wishful thinking by that Lieutenant Colonel, and that nothing will happen."

"Surprisingly enough, I do agree. TNI-AD's armoured program does not seem to include a MBT in the near future based on everything I have read so far. Rather, it's geared towards a more light and mobile capability, organic to a mechanized regiment."


"If such a deal with national and international ramifications would be made, it would not be the task of a generic infantry officer to announce it. It would be the president himself, the defence minister or at the very least the commanding general of the army who would reveal such a deal to the public. Yet, none of these three persons has commented on this issue. And neither did any of the potential supplier nations, nor any company that would be involved, nor any reputable media institution.
This fact alone is a very clear indicator."

100% Agree, you can find a lot announcements and 'news' in the media based on "maybe"s, "there is a possibility that in the future"s and even just fantasy.

 

[Ananda]

If indeed Leopards 2s are bought, the AMX-13s could be retired as the fire support role can still be performed by the 90mm Scorpions. If MBTS are bought, logic would dictate that these are placed where Indonesia actually has land borders.

Well if you look on the terrain and infrastructures conditions of Indonesian Land borders (with Malaysia in Borneo, with PNG in west Papua, and with Timor Leste in Timor), then you'll see that logistically it's not suitable for MBT operations. Only Java, and in some part of Sumatra and Bali that have infrastructures and conditions more suitable for MBT's operations. That's why the Army used to operated only light armored vehicles on border area. Base on that if any MBT's being procured, then it's supposedly logically (base on infrastructure on logistics support) located in Java or at most in Sumatra.

BTW, just as Koxinga said, the upgrade program of AMX 13 still goes on. At least one battalion of upgraded AMX 13 seems will be there.

Anyway, another Anoa variant with a 20mm turret was photographed recently. It seems that Pindad is experimenting with different variants. But are there plans to purchase them

I think this more as demonstrator to show the versatility of Anoa design for several design configurations. I'm more interested with the turret, seems it's Pindad own design, thus it's more as demonstrator on Pindad side to show their design capabilities.

There's seems a possibility of where the Leo 2's can come (if indeed Leo's 2 being approach as possible first TNI-AD MBT's ever). It seems the dutch really want to sell their Leo's; Dutch news - Dutch Army to Sell All Leopards and Cougars
Some guy in local forum find it.

THE HAGUE, 08/04/11 - The cabinet is virtually certain to announce enormous cutbacks at defence today. According to a leaked draft version of the measures, 12,000 jobs and complete army units will disappear.

Defence Minister Hans Hillen already announced permanent budget cuts of 1 billion euros per year earlier. The cabinet already considered the far-reaching cutbacks last week. The decision was however postponed and will likely be made today.

Public broadcaster NOS has already obtained the plans. It says that all 60 Leopard tanks will be divested. The 17 Cougar helicopters are also to go, as well as four of the 10 mine-sweepers. At least one-third of the 86 F-16s will also be sold.

Some 12,300 jobs will disappear. Around 6,000 soldiers will face forced redundancies. NOS has not yet discovered where the blows will actually fall.

The unions are furious and derisive. Bigger missions such as that in Uruzgan - four years, 2,000 personnel - will no longer be possible in the future, says ACOM chairman Kleian. "The Netherlands will have a Belgian armed forces. Flying now and then. And if there is money and petrol, then we will do a trick."

However, I haven't found any recent link yet that confirm if the dutch Leo's 2 really for sale. Most of Indonesia's AMX 13 105 mm variant are ex dutch. Will be interesting in TNI-AD really go to the dutch for second hand MBT's. They have done that with AMX 13, will they go second time ?

 

[STURM]

Perhaps ground pressure might be a better measure whether MBTs can operate there rather than vehicle weight.

Yes ground pressure plays a huge part. During an exercise with the USMC a few years ago in a palm oil estate, USMC LAV-25s kept getting bogged down but the Malaysian army's Scorpions were all right due to their lower ground pressure.

 

[koxinga]

However, I haven't found any recent link yet that confirm if the dutch Leo's 2 really for sale. Most of Indonesia's AMX 13 105 mm variant are ex dutch. Will be interesting in TNI-AD really go to the dutch for second hand MBT's. They have done that with AMX 13, will they go second time ?

Dutch Leos were reportedly offered to Peru for their MBT program. Germany should still have plenty to spare, especially with the reported cuts.

edit:
Germany's Leopard 2 fleet would be reduced from 350 to 225. More used Leopards on the market.