Canada's next Jet Fighter?

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
the question might be, is Boeing be able to ramp up production rates to cater for that demand?

Is Boeing and its suppliers able to meet that demand if it happens? I assume that it would be something that Boeing might already have contingency plans for.
No it can't unless it manages to get the service buyers to facilitate entry - ie do a USN for RAAF - and that is just not possible.

Seriously, this notion that the Shornet is some interim saving grace at the capability level is suspending reality and ignoring the actual constraints that are in place.

Boeing is not your local ford/chevrolet/toyota dealer where they have backlot and surge capacity to address demand like some magic pixie at the car shows..... :)

and (not directed at you) for crying out loud, why the hell would any country thats been exposed to some of the future systems working groups (which some NATO countries all are privy too) going to rush out and buy another logistics burden and invest into a capability which we already know has a limited shelf life.

Seriously, touting the Shornet as a panacea for JSF and as though its the optional solution set for all the JSF buyers is suspending reality so much I cannot but help but wonder of people are being mischievous or genuinely naive.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
No it can't unless it manages to get the service buyers to facilitate entry - ie do a USN for RAAF - and that is just not possible.

Seriously, this notion that the Shornet is some interim saving grace at the capability level is suspending reality and ignoring the actual constraints that are in place.

Boeing is not your local ford/chevrolet/toyota dealer where they have backlot and surge capacity to address demand like some magic pixie at the car shows..... :)

and (not directed at you) for crying out loud, why the hell would any country thats been exposed to some of the future systems working groups (which some NATO countries all are privy too) going to rush out and buy another logistics burden and invest into a capability which we already know has a limited shelf life.

Seriously, touting the Shornet as a panacea for JSF and as though its the optional solution set for all the JSF buyers is suspending reality so much I cannot but help but wonder of people are being mischievous or genuinely naive.
Gf, I'm not, repeat, not an anti F-35 advocate, ok?

I was just posing the question "if" there were further significant delays, or more, which could have a seious impact on the nations planning F-35 purchases, would Boeing be able to ramp up production.

If for example Boeing had won both the Brazilian and Indian competitions they entered the Super Hornet in, then I'm sure they would be ramping up production to not only satisfy the USN but also those two nations as well anyway.

Boeing and Airbus, with their commercial aircraft, are always adusting production, up or down depending on the demand and backlog.

I'm not suggesting that at a push of a button they could go from, say 2 aircraft delivered per month to 22 per month, that would be rediculous of course.

But I'm sure that they also keep a watch as what opportunites "might" fall their way with military aircraft too.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Gf, I'm not, repeat, not an anti F-35 advocate, ok?
yep, I realise that. My frustration is about some of the responses here which totally ignore the reality of why countries are looking at 5th gen capability - and yet all I see is a continuing dialogue that promotes a solution set around the Shornet. Its a convenient but absolutely limiting arguement because it completely ignores the fact that all of our future force planning ius about platforms being system enablers within the broader combat operating picture. No country with any degree of warfighting sophistication is lookingf at 4th gen, or 4.5 transition platforms as their force de main at a manned combat air level

I find it almost incomprehensible that any individual with a real awareness of where we are going in force development would seriously say, lets burn the JSF and move into an interim future with a bastardised 4th gen platform (irrespective of Boeings attempt to say that the SHornet is a 5th gen solution)

There is too much MSU in nhere promoted as fact. In fact its dumbing down the debate so much that any serious debate moves off because its turning into a peckerhead dialogue rather than serious analysis

I don't have a difficulty with "what ifs" - but some of the dialogue about the JSF being ineffective or incapable against the emerging threat matrix is basically inane rubbish.

and FFS, thinking that the warfighters just accept capability because the govt wants it ignores the reality that the warfighters do have a clue and do get in and ciriticse capability pretty bloody quickly.

the argument that JSF pilots are duty bound is just crap,

FMD we profile against real threats - not against some schoolboy fantasy where reality is suspended just to make a platform case

If India and Brasil wanted Shornets then Boeing are still stuck in the real world where the customers get delivery at the end of existing service delivery cycles, or the US services suspend their own delivery requirements and elect to give theit slots up.

People don't seem to understand the extent of the special relationship between USN and ADO and that the opportunity for that process to happen for other countries is just not the same - we mutually share significant things between USN/USAF/USMC/US Army/US Alphabets and vice versa, USN went out of their way to assist and actually leveraged the USG in their own right. Quite frankly and bluntly, Brasil and India (eg) don;t have the same leverage.

These debates have to include reality checks and unfort reality is the first casualty when people have their own vision of how square or round they want the world to look like.

I am not frustrated with you, but I am absolutely fed up with some of the crap thats promoted as profound and inciteful fact when I know its not
 

bouser

New Member
I have seen many threads about possible fly away cost of aircraft. just keep in mind that if you have a twin engine fighter loose an engine in the great canadian north we will be down an engine, if a single engine fighter looses an engine in the great canadian north we are down the most valuble tool used buy our air force..our pilot. we will also be down buy the looks of it a very expensive piece of equip (the entire fighter). Aircraft engine failure's are not common but do occure regardless of how well the aircraft and its engine are maintained. if we are going to ask our pilots to fly in inhospitable locations we should give them an aircraft they can at least limp back home in if worst comes to worst.

just a thought
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I have seen many threads about possible fly away cost of aircraft. just keep in mind that if you have a twin engine fighter loose an engine in the great canadian north we will be down an engine, if a single engine fighter looses an engine in the great canadian north we are down the most valuble tool used buy our air force..our pilot. we will also be down buy the looks of it a very expensive piece of equip (the entire fighter). Aircraft engine failure's are not common but do occure regardless of how well the aircraft and its engine are maintained. if we are going to ask our pilots to fly in inhospitable locations we should give them an aircraft they can at least limp back home in if worst comes to worst.

just a thought
the single engine argument has been done to death in here.

the platform with the highest availability rate in the USAF is the F-16 - guess how many engines it has.
 

bouser

New Member
the single engine argument has been done to death in here.

the platform with the highest availability rate in the USAF is the F-16 - guess how many engines it has.
An f-16 that has an engine failing near an airport will usualy be able to land and be brought back into service, hence the availability rate. On our northern borders if a F-16 pilot notices his engine is failing he will not have an available landing strip to put down on.

you say the single engine argument has been "done to death" how do you think a flight suited fighter pilot will be feeling if he had to eject in and location that is several hrs to day's from rescue in the frozen north?.... dead

I'm not saying the F-35 is junk, I am just saying Canada should be looking at options.
The cost of the F-35s might go up for Australia if Canada dos'nt order any but that is not Canadas concern.

You worry about Austrailia, let me worry about Canada

Admin. Not a good start to your first post. I suggest that you let me worrry about whether people abide by the Forum Rules on posting etiquette. Take this as an introductory warning about good manners - and go and read the Forum Rules before posting again
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
An f-16 that has an engine failing near an airport will usualy be able to land and be brought back into service, hence the availability rate. On our northern borders if a F-16 pilot notices his engine is failing he will not have an available landing strip to put down on.

you say the single engine argument has been "done to death" how do you think a flight suited fighter pilot will be feeling if he had to eject in and location that is several hrs to day's from rescue in the frozen north?.... dead

I'm not saying the F-35 is junk, I am just saying Canada should be looking at options.
The cost of the F-35s might go up for Australia if Canada dos'nt order any but that is not Canadas concern.

You worry about Austrailia, let me worry about Canada
GF (a Super Mod btw) has accurately pointed out that the single vs. twin-engine argument for the F-35 really has been 'done to death' as it were.

Unfortunately you seem unwilling to accept that, or perhaps you feel a quick re-cap is in order.

Firstly, with the F-35 and in fact many other modern jet engines, considerable effort is put into designing and fabricating engines which will be less prone to failure, as well as being potentially easier to maintain. If there is no engine failure in the first place, it ceases to matter whether the jet is equipped with a single to twin engine. Incidentally, here I believe is where the USAF's F-16 availability rate is most important, since that is a potential indication of what sort of engine failure rate some of the jets/engines have historically experienced.

Next to consider is what is the cause/source of engine failure? This needs to be considered becausing depending on the trigger for the failure, having a second engine might make no difference. Take battle damage for instance, if a jet were to suffer battle damage, having a second engine does not IMO provide any sort of guarantee that the aircraft would be able to maintain flight, since it is quite possible that both engines could suffer damage. Also depending on the nature of an engine failure, the type of engine and its location on an aircraft relative to its twin and other aircraft subsystems, a catastrophic engine failure (like those which happened on some A380 airliners...) could cause the second engine to failure, or other damage.

Thirdly, even with there being a second, functional engine onboard an aircraft, depending on the aircraft weight, payload, distance to an aircraft, environmental conditions and engine thrust, the remaining engine might be insufficient to keep the aircraft flying until it can land safely. Or another phenomenon which can occur is that the pilot can lose control of the aircraft if suddenly an engine cuts out while the other retains power.

In short, having a second engine in a jet is not a panacea for jet engine failure. Far better IMO is to undertake work to reduce/eliminate engine failures as much as possible instead. And with all due respect to the hazards of Canada's far north, that is not more hazardous terrain to fly over than open ocean like USN and USMC F-35 pilots will routinely be doing.

-Cheers
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
An f-16 that has an engine failing near an airport will usualy be able to land and be brought back into service, hence the availability rate. On our northern borders if a F-16 pilot notices his engine is failing he will not have an available landing strip to put down on.

you say the single engine argument has been "done to death" how do you think a flight suited fighter pilot will be feeling if he had to eject in and location that is several hrs to day's from rescue in the frozen north?.... dead

I'm not saying the F-35 is junk, I am just saying Canada should be looking at options.
The cost of the F-35s might go up for Australia if Canada dos'nt order any but that is not Canadas concern.

You worry about Austrailia, let me worry about Canada
No worse than a US Navy carrier pilot stuck in the middle of the ocean with nowhere to land if his single engine flames out. Apparently the USN as well as the Canadian Air Force are both convinced the F135 is reliable enough to risk it...

GF's point IS valid to Canada. The fact is that modern single engine fighters are NOT more likely to crash because of engine failure than twin engine fighters. The overwhelming majority of fighter aircraft crashes, have nothing to do with how many engines an aircraft has.

The Canadian Air Force has done the studies which show the risk is not as great as you would believe. You have not. You are relying on a simplistic assumption and hysterics to support your point. One that is not borne out by statistics or even research of any kind, but simple emotion.

IF simple emotion based arguments un-supported by facts are all that matter, then my contention is that based on Canada's recent operational record, twin engine fighters are un-safe and Canada should hurry up and buy a single engine fighter...

Afterall the whole world saw how safe Canada's twin engine jets really are recently...

Pilot ejects from F-18 jet at the last second, just before crash - YouTube
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
An f-16 that has an engine failing near an airport will usualy be able to land and be brought back into service, hence the availability rate. On our northern borders if a F-16 pilot notices his engine is failing he will not have an available landing strip to put down on.
and the data on how many canadian pilots have lost aircraft when canada was running singles as against the data of losing hornets on remote flights revolves around what numbers? and the data against modern engines developed over the last 20 years such as F414's?

you say the single engine argument has been "done to death" how do you think a flight suited fighter pilot will be feeling if he had to eject in and location that is several hrs to day's from rescue in the frozen north?.... dead
funny that a strong cohort of modern airforces that have been running twins have also looked at the flight hours of modern singles and are migrating to singles. just because you have ice and snow doesn't make canada unique - australia has a swag of desert and remote areas which are just as barren - in fact look at the ratio of urban/populated area issues for canada and australia - they're more or less the same.

I'm not saying the F-35 is junk, I am just saying Canada should be looking at options.
The cost of the F-35s might go up for Australia if Canada dos'nt order any but that is not Canadas concern.
I didn't mention JSF. I was referring to the canard of single engine arguments vs twins. Do you seriously think that canada or australia not ordering JSF is going to banana the price to everyone else? Seriously, the concern is whether the US dropped 20-30% of their order - not whether australia, canada, or 80+ buyers defer or diminish their buys.

You worry about Austrailia, let me worry about Canada
and as stated before, you need to check your manners before coming back.. Let me worry about Forum quality, topic content and its relevance and you can worry about your posting behaviour.

Nationalistic posts are short lived here. Ill mannered posters are even shorter lived.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
You worry about Austrailia, let me worry about Canada
Yeah like Canada has a monopoly on inhospitable, unpopulated terrain…

On our northern borders if a F-16 pilot notices his engine is failing he will not have an available landing strip to put down on.

you say the single engine argument has been "done to death" how do you think a flight suited fighter pilot will be feeling if he had to eject in and location that is several hrs to day's from rescue in the frozen north?.... dead
He’d feel much better dying of exposure as opposed to in a similar situation in Australia dying of dehydration. Or drowning after ditching into water, at least most of the time Canada’s offshore areas are iced over. Might not be nice sitting on an iceberg after punching out but it’s a lot better than floating in a life raft.

An f-16 that has an engine failing near an airport will usualy be able to land and be brought back into service, hence the availability rate.
Did you make that up or did you read it somewhere where some other person had made it up?

The key question you should be asking yourself is what is the single engine failure rate of an F-35 compared to the twin engine failure rate of an F/A-18 or similar aircraft? There is this rampart idea floating around the enthusiasts’ world that having two engines automatically means if one goes the other doesn’t. This may apply to those many aircraft which have two widely separated engines. However in 99% of twin engine military fighters both engines are tucked in side by side. When one engine goes it tends to promote the rapid loss of the other thanks to things like fires, catastrophic explosion and the like which tend to be the symptoms of engine loss.
 

bouser

New Member
An f-16 that has an engine failing near an airport will usualy be able to land and be brought back into service, hence the availability rate. On our northern borders if a F-16 pilot notices his engine is failing he will not have an available landing strip to put down on.

you say the single engine argument has been "done to death" how do you think a flight suited fighter pilot will be feeling if he had to eject in and location that is several hrs to day's from rescue in the frozen north?.... dead

I'm not saying the F-35 is junk, I am just saying Canada should be looking at options.
The cost of the F-35s might go up for Australia if Canada dos'nt order any but that is not Canadas concern.

You worry about Austrailia, let me worry about Canada

Admin. Not a good start to your first post. I suggest that you let me worrry about whether people abide by the Forum Rules on posting etiquette. Take this as an introductory warning about good manners - and go and read the Forum Rules before posting again
I guess your the boss? wow way to take off swinging, canadas last single engine fighter was the cf-104 starfighter (should have kept the avro arrow) that was short lived in its roll in the north..wonder why?granted newer engines are more reliable but not infalable anything man made / maitained can and will fail at some time. I do have flight time and have had to study SAR. you will freeze faster than dehidrate. just answering your questions.

funny how your posting behavior is okay and mine is not. sorry if I have urked you but it still stands 2 engines are better than one when working at distances from landing strips( includes roads or any flat hardened surfaces with lenght and width required) ice wont work unless surface is worked.

your arrogance is not becoming of you.

have a great day:) (you can kick me off but the truth still stands) I dont have a vested interest in selling any particular aicraft as it would seem others do.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I guess your the boss?
No, I'm a SuperMod (brown tag - note the colours of posters tags. Brown = SuperMod, Red = Mod, Blue = Defence Professional, Green = Snr Member.


wow way to take off swinging, canadas last single engine fighter was the cf-104 starfighter (should have kept the avro arrow) that was short lived in its roll in the north..wonder why?granted newer engines are more reliable but not infalable anything man made can and will fail at some time. I do have flight time and have had to study SAR. you will freeze faster than dehidrate. just answering your questions.
If Flight Time is supposed to infer that you're rated, then you're the first pilot I've come across in 30 years that can't spell. Somehow I have a doubt. The fact that you still have not drawn an association between the reliability of modern single jet engine aircraft, don't have an awareness that when an engine in a twin goes that it invariably causes problems in its mate is fascinating. eg, the engines are colocated, there is no armoured barrier between them and that means that if one goes catastrophic from a bird strike or missile strike then bits of it end up next door - it seems unusual that someone promoting an awareness through flight time (inferred expreience) and SAR as their experience base would be unaware of the problem

As for dehydration issues, its also a common posting courtesy to address posters specifically when challenging or responding to their comments.

If you're going to make throw away claims about the tenure of the starfighter, I suggest that you also do some more research.

funny how your posting behavior is okay and mine is not. sorry if I have urked you but it still stands 2 engines are better than one when working at distances from landing strips( includes roads or any flat hardened surfaces with lenght and width required) ice wont work unless surface is worked.
As a Mod I'll exercise my obligations in keeping the forum on track - note the other respondents to your thread to date? they're either Mods or Defence professionals - ie in one of the services, ex service, industry or some are double hatting. IOW, they are people who already have had their credentials established. For Defence Professional status, we also insist that people provide evidence as too often or not people pretend to be something they're not. As you have claimed flight time hours and experience for SAR then feel free to provide evidence.


But, to the original point, two engines is a canard and the reliability of modern managed engines such as the F404 and F414 are testimony to their reliability. Again, if we want to talk facts , then the F16 has highest engine reliability and availability rate of any modern fighter.

your arrogance is not becoming of you.
I'd be more concerned about you coming into a forum making bold claims which are easily challenged.

have a great day:) (you can kick me off but the truth still stands) I dont have a vested interest in selling any particular aicraft as it would seem others do.
Nobody here has a vested interest in selling aircraft either, quite a few of us work either for Defence agencies, departments and/or the trade. Aircraft companies don't use forums to promote their wares, they're a little more sophisticated than using forums for product promotion
 
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FirstSpear

Banned Member
Tone vs. Content

No, I'm a SuperMod (brown tag - note the colours of posters tags. Brown = SuperMod, Red = Mod, Blue = Defence Professional, Green = Snr Member.




If Flight Time is supposed to infer that you're rated, then you're the first pilot I've come across in 30 years that can't spell. Somehow I have a doubt. The fact that you still have not drawn an association between the reliability of modern single jet engine aircraft, don't have an awareness that when an engine in a twin goes that it invariably causes problems in its mate is fascinating. eg, the engines are colocated, there is no armoured barrier between them and that means that if one goes catastrophic from a bird strike or missile strike then bits of it end up next door - it seems unusual that someone promoting an awareness through flight time (inferred expreience) and SAR as their experience base would be unaware of the problem

As for dehydration issues, its also a common posting courtesy to address posters specifically when challenging or responding to their comments.

If you're going to make throw away claims about the tenure of the starfighter, I suggest that you also do some more research.



As a Mod I'll exercise my obligations in keeping the forum on track - note the other respondents to your thread to date? they're either Mods or Defence professionals - ie in one of the services, ex service, industry or some are double hatting. IOW, they are people who already have had their credentials established. For Defence Professional status, we also insist that people provide evidence as too often or not people pretend to be something they're not. As you have claimed flight time hours and experience for SAR then feel free to provide evidence.


But, to the original point, two engines is a canard and the reliability of modern managed engines such as the F404 and F414 are testimony to their reliability. Again, if we want to talk facts , then the F16 has highest engine reliability and availability rate of any modern fighter.



I'd be more concerned about you coming into a forum making bold claims which are easily challenged.



Nobody here has a vested interest in selling aircraft either, quite a few of us work either for Defence agencies, departments and/or the trade. Aircraft companies don't use forums to promote their wares, they're a little more sophisticated than using forums for product promotion
Respectfully to the crowd throwing stones at bouser, yourself included, I would say that the tone of your emails makes me wonder about your motives. You may question his spelling but perhaps you could check your sentence structure and grammar first.

As for the ticket (license), I am not sure that being a pilot is a be all end all. Many of the decision makers on the major programs you guys are talking about have only been in a cockpit on a flight line at an air show. As for letting only pilots contribute to the discussion, this would be a great way to generate incestuous and circular thinking of the kind that kills innovation and out-of-the-box thinking.

I, for one, as a non military rated pilot with an IFR ticket and all my acro training learned from a retired LTC with U2, tactical instruction and other very special flying skills, I can tell you that it takes a special breed to fly these kinds of missions. The fighter pilots I know from the US, Sweden, Belgium, France and Israel are altogether a more like and mundane sort, albeit a very special lot with arguably very specific skills and their own kind of right stuff. But there are very few to whom I would entrust my tax dollars without oversight. The wings you earn don't, by any stretch of the imagination, make you a competent program manager or policy maker.

As for the content specifically, there are clearly two sets of aircraft: the heavier, increasingly twin seat, twin engine, fully capable aircraft for long range knock down the door missions. At the same time, and mostly for financial reasons, there is also a second set of aircraft that are single pilot (though the Israelis and, for many missions, the French have opted to go two seat here too), single engine aircraft to add quantity to the full spectrum capabilities of the first category.

It can be argued that the Canadians, like the Australians have a choice to make about the power projection component of the mission set they wish to assign to their air forces. It seems to me that the Australians are a little more 'forward leaning' in this matter (easily explained by their geography and proximity to the Pacific theater's threats).

It would seem to me, humbly (and in my non gold-winged state of nothingness) that strategically it could pay off for both Canada and Australia to imagine continuing their tradition of buying essentially carrier-capable aircraft which could (contrary to what has been done so far) actually be used on allied carriers in a crisis. It would be a very demanding set of skills to develop but the French lit a fire under their own program to grow their carrier-borne air assets by initiating exchanges with the US at Pensacola and, sparingly, in USN units. The Australians could definitely begin this with their Super Hornets.

On this point, there are, you are right, the US way to do this (with the F35) or the French way to achieve the same with an updated version of the Rafale (available now and if purchased in the right quantities, cheaper than F35 with not a huge loss of capability). I don't know, personally if the F35 will fully deliver the knock the door down capability being advertised. It may or may not. I lament that so much of the West is now dependent on this one program.

Controversially, the UK is offering India to develop a naval version of the Typhoon (if for no other reason than it was originally envisaged and dropped to focus on RAF version) If F35 platform fails to perform, the UK could still opt for the naval Typhoon, particularly if the Indians choose it.

One thing the brits have figured out is that you can pool AF and Navy assets in joint forces (e.g.: helicopter fleets, attack helicopters and formerly with harriers) The French missed an opportunity to do this with Rafale but are now spending the time training army crews to routinely operate their Tigers and other ALAT assets on Amphibious Assault Assets and their Carrier.

The bottom line is heavier, two seat is routinely chosen for longer range. I'll quote an IDF F15 flight leader on why the Israelis picked the F16, despite their preference for the more expensive F15. It was cost, almost exclusively, because in the 'F15, to loose a dogfight against another type, you almost have to do it on purpose'. This is the reason they stuck bombs under their early F15As when headed to Tunis to hit the PLO. The range over water and hostile air threat on the way their meant they did not want to be in F16s. I agree, that's just one country with one mission profile. My two cents (or three)

Regards and peaceful thoughts to all,
 

jack412

Active Member
the guys that really know will probably give their opinion, but here's mine

Respectfully to the crowd throwing stones at bouser, yourself included, I would say that the tone of your emails makes me wonder about your motives. You may question his spelling but perhaps you could check your sentence structure and grammar first.
I dont have a problem, his attitude was bad and he was pulled into gear, yet he continued
As for the ticket (license), I am not sure that being a pilot is a be all end all. Many of the decision makers on the major programs you guys are talking about have only been in a cockpit on a flight line at an air show. As for letting only pilots contribute to the discussion, this would be a great way to generate incestuous and circular thinking of the kind that kills innovation and out-of-the-box thinking.
I think that the only flight time he had was in aircanada as a passenger
I, for one, as a non military rated pilot with an IFR ticket and all my acro training learned from a retired LTC with U2, tactical instruction and other very special flying skills, I can tell you that it takes a special breed to fly these kinds of missions. The fighter pilots I know from the US, Sweden, Belgium, France and Israel are altogether a more like and mundane sort, albeit a very special lot with arguably very specific skills and their own kind of right stuff. But there are very few to whom I would entrust my tax dollars without oversight. The wings you earn don't, by any stretch of the imagination, make you a competent program manager or policy maker.
I wouldn't entrust my tax dollars without oversight either, but their hands on experience is invaluable
As for the content specifically, there are clearly two sets of aircraft: the heavier, increasingly twin seat, twin engine, fully capable aircraft for long range knock down the door missions. At the same time, and mostly for financial reasons, there is also a second set of aircraft that are single pilot (though the Israelis and, for many missions, the French have opted to go two seat here too), single engine aircraft to add quantity to the full spectrum capabilities of the first category.
I was questioning the single seat too, but found the f-35 only needs a single seat

It would seem to me, humbly (and in my non gold-winged state of nothingness) that strategically it could pay off for both Canada and Australia to imagine continuing their tradition of buying essentially carrier-capable aircraft which could (contrary to what has been done so far) actually be used on allied carriers in a crisis. It would be a very demanding set of skills to develop but the French lit a fire under their own program to grow their carrier-borne air assets by initiating exchanges with the US at Pensacola and, sparingly, in USN units. The Australians could definitely begin this with their Super Hornets.
we have never landed Hornets on a carrier and our CONOPS dont envisage it, I dont think Canada has either
aussie does exchange on different platforms and countries, we have a pilot flying the f-22 which provides the RAAF with data on CONOPS and capability
On this point, there are, you are right, the US way to do this (with the F35) or the French way to achieve the same with an updated version of the Rafale (available now and if purchased in the right quantities, cheaper than F35 with not a huge loss of capability). I don't know, personally if the F35 will fully deliver the knock the door down capability being advertised. It may or may not. I lament that so much of the West is now dependent on this one program.
most 1st 2nd tier air forces and gov have chosen the f-35 for a reason, I'm not debating the Rafale with you, believe what you want
Controversially, the UK is offering India to develop a naval version of the Typhoon (if for no other reason than it was originally envisaged and dropped to focus on RAF version) If F35 platform fails to perform, the UK could still opt for the naval Typhoon, particularly if the Indians choose it.
the sea typhoon is a ski ramp and not suitable for UK
One thing the brits have figured out is that you can pool AF and Navy assets in joint forces (e.g.: helicopter fleets, attack helicopters and formerly with harriers) The French missed an opportunity to do this with Rafale but are now spending the time training army crews to routinely operate their Tigers and other ALAT assets on Amphibious Assault Assets and their Carrier.
the air and land rafales are diferent builds, the land rafale isnt carrier
The bottom line is heavier, two seat is routinely chosen for longer range. I'll quote an IDF F15 flight leader on why the Israelis picked the F16, despite their preference for the more expensive F15. It was cost, almost exclusively, because in the 'F15, to loose a dogfight against another type, you almost have to do it on purpose'. This is the reason they stuck bombs under their early F15As when headed to Tunis to hit the PLO. The range over water and hostile air threat on the way their meant they did not want to be in F16s. I agree, that's just one country with one mission profile. My two cents (or three)

Regards and peaceful thoughts to all,
tankers, the f-22 is global but has less range than a f-35
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Respectfully to the crowd throwing stones at bouser, yourself included, I would say that the tone of your emails makes me wonder about your motives. You may question his spelling but perhaps you could check your sentence structure and grammar first.
my motives are straight down the line. it would be sensible for anyone making a first post to understand the lay of the land before bouncing into a room - and not having done some research make some bold claims - which have been done to death not only on this forum, but invariably elsewhere. to whit, the notion that two engines are safer than one is not the actual real world case wrt contemp engine management.

As for the ticket (license), I am not sure that being a pilot is a be all end all. Many of the decision makers on the major programs you guys are talking about have only been in a cockpit on a flight line at an air show. As for letting only pilots contribute to the discussion, this would be a great way to generate incestuous and circular thinking of the kind that kills innovation and out-of-the-box thinking.
being rated doesn't make one and instant expert, it does however give one an appreciation of the logic points. Just because I am in AOPA (and I am) doesn't make me an aviation expert, just because I have evaluated aircraft as part of program managament, doesn't make me an expert, just because I deal with planning issues doesn't make me an expert, etc... but all of those things together give me a greater insight and appreciation. It also means that when I discuss something there is some substance behind my logic, rather than taking the path of easy resistance and requote urban myths from the net..

I, for one, as a non military rated pilot with an IFR ticket and all my acro training learned from a retired LTC with U2, tactical instruction and other very special flying skills, I can tell you that it takes a special breed to fly these kinds of missions. The fighter pilots I know from the US, Sweden, Belgium, France and Israel are altogether a more like and mundane sort, albeit a very special lot with arguably very specific skills and their own kind of right stuff. But there are very few to whom I would entrust my tax dollars without oversight. The wings you earn don't, by any stretch of the imagination, make you a competent program manager or policy maker.
no, but your proficiency should come out in the logic of your debate - whether it makes you competent in your field is another issue, but the calibre of your logic should still start to tear the fabric of the discussion and make people aware that you do have a clue and are not riding in like the lone ranger all guns blazing

As for the content specifically, there are clearly two sets of aircraft: the heavier, increasingly twin seat, twin engine, fully capable aircraft for long range knock down the door missions. At the same time, and mostly for financial reasons, there is also a second set of aircraft that are single pilot (though the Israelis and, for many missions, the French have opted to go two seat here too), single engine aircraft to add quantity to the full spectrum capabilities of the first category.
the type of aircraft used are defined by a nations CONOPs and finances. There are those that can afford Hi-Lo and have a range requirement which dictates the rest of the loggie tail - and there are those who don't and seek to use a multi-role single platform solution, again, geographics and threat matrix then dictate the support tail.

It can be argued that the Canadians, like the Australians have a choice to make about the power projection component of the mission set they wish to assign to their air forces. It seems to me that the Australians are a little more 'forward leaning' in this matter (easily explained by their geography and proximity to the Pacific theater's threats).
Australia, like Canada, forward plans, our strategic plans are based on "best guess" and likely scenarios for the next 30 years - a tough call for anyone seeking to usurp nostradamus. because its such a black art we stay close to our friends and seek out their ideas, just as we have Canadian Def pers attached to our HQ, the Canadians have the same with us. IOW we stay engaged. We don't plan in isolation even though our threat vision is more wrapped around the SC Sea, Paracels, Spratlys going pair shaped, and Canadas might be a resurgent Russia moving intio what the Canadians think are their northern areas of ownership and interest. The common denominator for all of us (and not just platform interoperability and integration) is about playing successfully with the US. Common assets, common training, common philosophies of military capability all influence what we both do.

The opportunity to buy Rafale and Typhoon may seem attractive to some, but the reality of the bigger picture and its wrap around impacts has to kick in. Theory is fine. Realpolitik and real world constraints are what we deal with and make decisions on.

It would seem to me, humbly (and in my non gold-winged state of nothingness) that strategically it could pay off for both Canada and Australia to imagine continuing their tradition of buying essentially carrier-capable aircraft which could (contrary to what has been done so far) actually be used on allied carriers in a crisis. It would be a very demanding set of skills to develop but the French lit a fire under their own program to grow their carrier-borne air assets by initiating exchanges with the US at Pensacola and, sparingly, in USN units. The Australians could definitely begin this with their Super Hornets.
RAAF already undergo such training, and the view has been for a long time that as part of availability they could use US assets rather than our own. USN has been tightly involved with RAAF on this issue for some time. The logic has not been about putting our platforms on their assets, but our bums in their seats if needed.

On this point, there are, you are right, the US way to do this (with the F35) or the French way to achieve the same with an updated version of the Rafale (available now and if purchased in the right quantities, cheaper than F35 with not a huge loss of capability). I don't know, personally if the F35 will fully deliver the knock the door down capability being advertised. It may or may not. I lament that so much of the West is now dependent on this one program.
Personally from the advantage of my insight at work (and I don't work in industry) I don't see the Rafale being within a bulls roar of JSF at not only the single platform capability level, but more importantly, at the broad brush system of systems level. The cost to bring Rafale into sympathy with the rest of our future force construct is a waste of money when IMO its the less capable asset at the individual platform level in the first place.

Controversially, the UK is offering India to develop a naval version of the Typhoon (if for no other reason than it was originally envisaged and dropped to focus on RAF version) If F35 platform fails to perform, the UK could still opt for the naval Typhoon, particularly if the Indians choose it.
CREF above. Its not just about the platform. The USN provides RAAF with access to a support and logistics tree that the RAF could not even remotely begin to emulate.

One thing the brits have figured out is that you can pool AF and Navy assets in joint forces (e.g.: helicopter fleets, attack helicopters and formerly with harriers) The French missed an opportunity to do this with Rafale but are now spending the time training army crews to routinely operate their Tigers and other ALAT assets on Amphibious Assault Assets and their Carrier.
the future australian LHnn constructs are the same, in fact ADF have army, RAAF and RAN assets under a joint command . the force commander controls the air, its no longer a service centric construct and the CONOPS for joint amphib development for ADF clearly reflect this

The bottom line is heavier, two seat is routinely chosen for longer range. I'll quote an IDF F15 flight leader on why the Israelis picked the F16, despite their preference for the more expensive F15. It was cost, almost exclusively, because in the 'F15, to loose a dogfight against another type, you almost have to do it on purpose'. This is the reason they stuck bombs under their early F15As when headed to Tunis to hit the PLO. The range over water and hostile air threat on the way their meant they did not want to be in F16s. I agree, that's just one country with one mission profile. My two cents (or three)

Regards and peaceful thoughts to all,
I have no objections to whatever one country thinks is right for its own force development, its a matter of whether it has relevance to our own countries posture and positioning issues.

the force planners are not convinced that Aust needs individual platform depth (the continued lament of the F-111 supporters)

when Boeing made their sales pitch to RAAF/AustGov in Apr/May of 2008 they didn't do so with the F-15 in any iteration (and they could have if they wanted to philosophically argue a direct F-111 replacement), they did it with the SHornet. The USN which has no vested interest in what platform RAAF uses outside of the fact that we will be there when needed also made some compelling arguments in favour of Shornet (and I would argue that most of that is not going to be presented in detail in an open forum)

These decisions are not cavalierly made, and my continued frustration is that on the open domain there appears to be a view that the forward and tac planners are not considering things which to the layman appear to be self evident. That is not the case.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Respectfully to the crowd throwing stones at bouser, yourself included, I would say that the tone of your emails makes me wonder about your motives. You may question his spelling but perhaps you could check your sentence structure and grammar first.

As for the ticket (license), I am not sure that being a pilot is a be all end all. Many of the decision makers on the major programs you guys are talking about have only been in a cockpit on a flight line at an air show. As for letting only pilots contribute to the discussion, this would be a great way to generate incestuous and circular thinking of the kind that kills innovation and out-of-the-box thinking.

I, for one, as a non military rated pilot with an IFR ticket and all my acro training learned from a retired LTC with U2, tactical instruction and other very special flying skills, I can tell you that it takes a special breed to fly these kinds of missions. The fighter pilots I know from the US, Sweden, Belgium, France and Israel are altogether a more like and mundane sort, albeit a very special lot with arguably very specific skills and their own kind of right stuff. But there are very few to whom I would entrust my tax dollars without oversight. The wings you earn don't, by any stretch of the imagination, make you a competent program manager or policy maker.

As for the content specifically, there are clearly two sets of aircraft: the heavier, increasingly twin seat, twin engine, fully capable aircraft for long range knock down the door missions. At the same time, and mostly for financial reasons, there is also a second set of aircraft that are single pilot (though the Israelis and, for many missions, the French have opted to go two seat here too), single engine aircraft to add quantity to the full spectrum capabilities of the first category.

It can be argued that the Canadians, like the Australians have a choice to make about the power projection component of the mission set they wish to assign to their air forces. It seems to me that the Australians are a little more 'forward leaning' in this matter (easily explained by their geography and proximity to the Pacific theater's threats).

It would seem to me, humbly (and in my non gold-winged state of nothingness) that strategically it could pay off for both Canada and Australia to imagine continuing their tradition of buying essentially carrier-capable aircraft which could (contrary to what has been done so far) actually be used on allied carriers in a crisis. It would be a very demanding set of skills to develop but the French lit a fire under their own program to grow their carrier-borne air assets by initiating exchanges with the US at Pensacola and, sparingly, in USN units. The Australians could definitely begin this with their Super Hornets.

On this point, there are, you are right, the US way to do this (with the F35) or the French way to achieve the same with an updated version of the Rafale (available now and if purchased in the right quantities, cheaper than F35 with not a huge loss of capability). I don't know, personally if the F35 will fully deliver the knock the door down capability being advertised. It may or may not. I lament that so much of the West is now dependent on this one program.

Controversially, the UK is offering India to develop a naval version of the Typhoon (if for no other reason than it was originally envisaged and dropped to focus on RAF version) If F35 platform fails to perform, the UK could still opt for the naval Typhoon, particularly if the Indians choose it.

One thing the brits have figured out is that you can pool AF and Navy assets in joint forces (e.g.: helicopter fleets, attack helicopters and formerly with harriers) The French missed an opportunity to do this with Rafale but are now spending the time training army crews to routinely operate their Tigers and other ALAT assets on Amphibious Assault Assets and their Carrier.

The bottom line is heavier, two seat is routinely chosen for longer range. I'll quote an IDF F15 flight leader on why the Israelis picked the F16, despite their preference for the more expensive F15. It was cost, almost exclusively, because in the 'F15, to loose a dogfight against another type, you almost have to do it on purpose'. This is the reason they stuck bombs under their early F15As when headed to Tunis to hit the PLO. The range over water and hostile air threat on the way their meant they did not want to be in F16s. I agree, that's just one country with one mission profile. My two cents (or three)

Regards and peaceful thoughts to all,
A couple of things stood out to me in this post and were not (directly at least) addressed by GF.

First, not everyone discussing the F-35 here on DT, or even involved in the F-35 and other aircraft procurement programmes are actually pilots. For one, as you mentioned, not all pilots make good programme managers. The opposite of that is also true, in that not all programme managers make good pilots. With that fact in mind, there are programme managers running aspects of the F-35 programme, as well as the respective national F-35 programmes, some of whom are pilots. In addition, there are scientists, engineerings, technicians, and an ensemble of others involved in designing, fabricating and testing the aircraft. The imput from pilots here (within the F-35 programme) is invaluable, as pilots will be the end-users for the F-35.

Where "expertise" can cause issues at DT, whether it is claiming they are a pilot, or a current/former service personnel or member of industry, is if/when someone whom either lacks the claimed "expertise" or has irrelevant "expertise", makes a claim or statement using their "expertise" to support such arguments. This is also one of the reasons why DT is rather strict about those who make claims of current or former military service needing to show proof. There have been a number of incidents where new people have come on and made some rather outrageous claims and attempted to support their argument by also claiming to have served in uniform. My personal favourite would have to be when a either a kid or someone who was only semi-literate in English came on and started advising everyone they needed to purchase silver due to a potential currency collapse. When the poster was called on that, they proceeded to claim that they were a USAF brigadier general. Despite the fact that they could not even spell "their" rank correctly.

With posting styles like I mentioned above start to appear, with things like poor spelling coupled with expertise claims, particularly when dealing with some professions where an attention to detail is expected, it begins to raise red flags.

Now, for the other part.

What has been done "to death" as GF put it, is the internet myth that a fighter jet with two engines is better over long distances than a fighter jet with a single engine. While I do not really wish to desecrate the poor horse's corpse any further by continuing the beating, it appears that some people seem to be insisting on doing so. Having two engines side by side (can anyone name a current twin-engined fighter jet where the engines are not right next to each other?) simply means that an aircraft has two engines. Whether or not those engines would be prone to failure is going to involve the quality of the design and fabrication, whether proper maintenance is conducted and the operational environment for the engine and aircraft.

What does bear mentioning is that in the event of a catastrophic engine failure, there is definately the potential for the failed engine to damage the non-failed engine sufficiently to cause the non-failed engine to fail. Or, whatever caused the first engine to fail could also cause the second engine to fail. In short, there are really no guarantees, since a fighter with two engines can absolutely have both engines fail, just like a single engine fighter can have its engine fail. This is where the operational experience of organizations like the USAF become important, where the aircraft which apparently had the fewest engine failures in USAF service recently was the single-engined F-16 fighter. That sort of statistic does suggest that the notion of twin-engine survivability is becoming myth instead of fact.

Now any discussion on single-seater vs. dual-seater aircraft is actually an entirely different discussion than what has been had so far. At present, the F-35 is planned to be a single-seater fighter, like the F-22. In some of the prior aircraft, there was a pilot responsible for flying the aircraft, and a WSO of some sort, responsible for operating weapon and/or sensor systems. With advances made in avionics and datalinks, there is potentially less need for a second person in the cockpit. This is because information can be presented to the pilot in a more useful and usable way than could previously be done, allowing the pilot to potentially split their focus between different tasks while still having sufficient attention to perform the mission.

Time will tell just how well that works out, but so far it appears to be working out.

-Cheers
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
For one, as you mentioned, not all pilots make good programme managers. The opposite of that is also true, in that not all programme managers make good pilots. With that fact in mind, there are programme managers running aspects of the F-35 programme, as well as the respective national F-35 programmes, some of whom are pilots. In addition, there are scientists, engineerings, technicians, and an ensemble of others involved in designing, fabricating and testing the aircraft.
as an example, there's a compelling view in a number of submarine build programs (not just Oz) that ex submarine drivers do not make the best project managers. To be fair the issue is about governance, and if the core governance issues are polluted by political interference, or "stuck in a rut" views, then no amount of good project managers will save things.
 

FirstSpear

Banned Member
When the poster was called on that, they proceeded to claim that they were a USAF brigadier general. Despite the fact that they could not even spell "their" rank correctly.
I see your point about false information or rather fanciful opinions offered and backed by made up claims of authoritative experience. that is pretty pathetic.

What has been done "to death" as GF put it, is the internet myth that a fighter jet with two engines is better over long distances than a fighter jet with a single engine. While I do not really wish to desecrate the poor horse's corpse any further by continuing the beating, it appears that some people seem to be insisting on doing so. Having two engines side by side (can anyone name a current twin-engined fighter jet where the engines are not right next to each other?) simply means that an aircraft has two engines. Whether or not those engines would be prone to failure is going to involve the quality of the design and fabrication, whether proper maintenance is conducted and the operational environment for the engine and aircraft.
I agree that the second engine does not alone confer the guarantee of redundancy which somehow could preclude failure (obviously, nothing can preclude failures) it's about making the failure mode follow a degrading performance pattern. The very tight tolerances of flight management software in modern fighters are such that power asymmetry alone could cause real problems under the right combination of attitude and loading, as to make any aircraft unstable once rapidly subjected to asymmetric power. But you have to look at the numerous failure modes short of the catastrophic ones. You may be thinking of many things like uncontained compressor failure, fire, bird strikes (in the flock scenario) where I agree, the second engine is very likely to be affected too. But there are clearly many modes short of these. Also, while I appreciate your deference to the learned teams working on the F35, I won't list here the litany of projects managed and staffed with a myriad of brilliant staff who still managed to produce aircraft that didn't deliver the advertised performance nor the budget committed to. The F35 is a long way from delivering on either of its commitments there and already guaranteed not to deliver on the other, by a very long shot.

Now any discussion on single-seater vs. dual-seater aircraft is actually an entirely different discussion than what has been had so far. At present, the F-35 is planned to be a single-seater fighter, like the F-22. In some of the prior aircraft, there was a pilot responsible for flying the aircraft, and a WSO of some sort, responsible for operating weapon and/or sensor systems. With advances made in avionics and datalinks, there is potentially less need for a second person in the cockpit. This is because information can be presented to the pilot in a more useful and usable way than could previously be done, allowing the pilot to potentially split their focus between different tasks while still having sufficient attention to perform the mission.
I agree the cockpit stuff has improved dramatically; I had a demo of some of the gear of current European aircraft in a simulator and it is really quite spectacular how far the synthesis of data has come.

It is my impression of discussion with current or recent flight crews in the countries I mentioned before that the technology being designed to alleviate pilot load is actually barely keeping up with the rapid acceleration of the fight sequence anticipated in the next generation of platforms. If you think the planners are above this kind of miscalculation, just look at how often the second crew or even the gun on generations of jets have been omitted only to be added later in replacement equipment. It is my humble opinion that the WSO or NFO or whatever you want to call the second crew(wo)man, that second pair of eyes and some good old fashioned short range weapons like AAM and guns will still be very helpful when aircraft find themselves in the proverbial fish bowl.

Time will tell just how well that works out, but so far it appears to be working out.
Fair enough and yet I do worry that the over-reliance on a single platform for such a high proportion of the West's air fleets exposes us to the risk of technology penetration. Also, I would re-state that the use of naval capable aircraft in the air arms of nations having carriers or their smaller allies offers, in the long term, a huge multiplier to the deployability of said air assets.

and Cheers to you too.

Mod edit: formatting fixed up...

AD
 
Last edited by a moderator:

south

Well-Known Member
A couple of things stood out to me in this post and were not (directly at least) addressed by GF.

First, not everyone discussing the F-35 here on DT, or even involved in the F-35 and other aircraft procurement programmes are actually pilots. For one, as you mentioned, not all pilots make good programme managers. The opposite of that is also true, in that not all programme managers make good pilots. With that fact in mind, there are programme managers running aspects of the F-35 programme, as well as the respective national F-35 programmes, some of whom are pilots. In addition, there are scientists, engineerings, technicians, and an ensemble of others involved in designing, fabricating and testing the aircraft. The imput from pilots here (within the F-35 programme) is invaluable, as pilots will be the end-users for the F-35.

Where "expertise" can cause issues at DT, whether it is claiming they are a pilot, or a current/former service personnel or member of industry, is if/when someone whom either lacks the claimed "expertise" or has irrelevant "expertise", makes a claim or statement using their "expertise" to support such arguments. This is also one of the reasons why DT is rather strict about those who make claims of current or former military service needing to show proof. There have been a number of incidents where new people have come on and made some rather outrageous claims and attempted to support their argument by also claiming to have served in uniform. My personal favourite would have to be when a either a kid or someone who was only semi-literate in English came on and started advising everyone they needed to purchase silver due to a potential currency collapse. When the poster was called on that, they proceeded to claim that they were a USAF brigadier general. Despite the fact that they could not even spell "their" rank correctly.

With posting styles like I mentioned above start to appear, with things like poor spelling coupled with expertise claims, particularly when dealing with some professions where an attention to detail is expected, it begins to raise red flags.

Now, for the other part.

What has been done "to death" as GF put it, is the internet myth that a fighter jet with two engines is better over long distances than a fighter jet with a single engine. While I do not really wish to desecrate the poor horse's corpse any further by continuing the beating, it appears that some people seem to be insisting on doing so. Having two engines side by side (can anyone name a current twin-engined fighter jet where the engines are not right next to each other?) simply means that an aircraft has two engines. Whether or not those engines would be prone to failure is going to involve the quality of the design and fabrication, whether proper maintenance is conducted and the operational environment for the engine and aircraft.

What does bear mentioning is that in the event of a catastrophic engine failure, there is definately the potential for the failed engine to damage the non-failed engine sufficiently to cause the non-failed engine to fail. Or, whatever caused the first engine to fail could also cause the second engine to fail. In short, there are really no guarantees, since a fighter with two engines can absolutely have both engines fail, just like a single engine fighter can have its engine fail. This is where the operational experience of organizations like the USAF become important, where the aircraft which apparently had the fewest engine failures in USAF service recently was the single-engined F-16 fighter. That sort of statistic does suggest that the notion of twin-engine survivability is becoming myth instead of fact.

Now any discussion on single-seater vs. dual-seater aircraft is actually an entirely different discussion than what has been had so far. At present, the F-35 is planned to be a single-seater fighter, like the F-22. In some of the prior aircraft, there was a pilot responsible for flying the aircraft, and a WSO of some sort, responsible for operating weapon and/or sensor systems. With advances made in avionics and datalinks, there is potentially less need for a second person in the cockpit. This is because information can be presented to the pilot in a more useful and usable way than could previously be done, allowing the pilot to potentially split their focus between different tasks while still having sufficient attention to perform the mission.

Time will tell just how well that works out, but so far it appears to be working out.

-Cheers
There are a lot of interesting viewpoints going on here. Firstly there is a preponderance of "if they are strapped down side by side then if one blows up the other blows up". History is going to say that if that happens you have been supremely unlucky, for starters modern fighter types engines in general don't tend to "let go" catastrophically and if they do they generally shed fan blades out the side of the casing. There is a chance that that could happen, however there is also a chance that a meteorite could fall through my roof and hit me in the head before I finish this sentence. Nope, hasnt happened yet.

Second argument - whatever caused the first engine to fail could cause the second engine to fail. (e.g. fuel starvation or contamination) If that is the case I believe you could probably argue that it is not an engine failure after all and more of a pilot fail (starvation) or QC (contamination) in as much as there was nothing wrong with the ENGINE when it stopped working

Thirdly whilst having two donks may make you twice as likely to have a mechanical failure, you still have the ability to perform a precautionary shutdown and land safely on the single remaining engine.

Fourth - battle damage, same as para 1 and 3... yep, it could happen that whatever hits you takes out both engines. If it was big enough to do that then your airframe is probably Ferked as well. There have been plenty of cases including some pretty good photo's of a hornet (which has engines closer together than pretty much any other fighter) hit by a manpad where one engine was destroyed yet the pilot still got home.

Now, I for one am not that concerned about having a single engine fighter, but if we have a look at USAF statistics for single engine fighters vs twin for ENGINE related mishaps (i.e. lets take other causes out of the equation) we can see that the F-16 generally has had a slightly higher mishap rate than F-15's when equipped with the same engines.

http://www.afsc.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-080819-035.pdf
http://www.afsc.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-100201-058.pdf

Do I think the difference is significant enough to rule out one type for a long range strike mission? No. Are fighter engines becoming more reliable? Yes.

GF - I reckon that you have missed something in translation somewhere about aussie guys flying USN hornet seats.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
GF - I reckon that you have missed something in translation somewhere about aussie guys flying USN hornet seats.
re F16's and their claim to reliability (USAF claims) - ratio they have a higher availability rate than any twin, irrespective of engine version.

RAAF pilots are on exchange and have been flying off carriers. It was in the RAAF news rag some time ago.

Some of the early BACC pilots were also flying USN seats
 
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