Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[gf0012-aust]

So the Merc has an edge in quality, and MAN in price. Is the Bushmaster ute really as overpriced (and inferior) as these reports make it seem?

it was originally a political decision anyway. I worked for one of the ADI suppliers a few years back, we have been advised that the project was being canned. lo and behold it was worked out that production was in a volatile electorate, and hey presto we stayed in business.

I seriously doubt that you'll see the true story coming out as the members of the tender evaluation team would be putting their jobs at risk.

I can tell you having worked on the other side of the fence that quite a few decisions sometimes just don't make sense.

 

[justsomeaussie]

it was originally a political decision anyway. I worked for one of the ADI suppliers a few years back, we have been advised that the project was being canned. lo and behold it was worked out that production was in a volatile electorate, and hey presto we stayed in business.

I seriously doubt that you'll see the true story coming out as the members of the tender evaluation team would be putting their jobs at risk.

I can tell you having worked on the other side of the fence that quite a few decisions sometimes just don't make sense.

That's certainly been my experience. When dealing the politicians never under estimate the power of selling jobs to people through a big tender.

 

[Kirkzzy]

Regarding force positioning. Why is it that our rapid reaction/light brigade is up in Townsville (I know that 3rd Brigade was originally supposed to be the main force to defend Australia in the DOA policy)? Shouldn't it be in Brisbane or Sydney closer to air and sea assets for rapid deployment? And just have 7th Brigade (the motorised one, which has far greater mobility and can travel much further over terrain like the outback), which is much better suited for the role take 3rd Brigade's former position?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Regarding force positioning. Why is it that our rapid reaction/light brigade is up in Townsville (I know that 3rd Brigade was originally supposed to be the main force to defend Australia in the DOA policy)? Shouldn't it be in Brisbane or Sydney closer to air and sea assets for rapid deployment? And just have 7th Brigade (the motorised one, which has far greater mobility and can travel much further over terrain like the outback), which is much better suited for the role take 3rd Brigade's former position?

3 Brigade is in Townsville so as to be tropically acclimatised, that was the reason the base was built up to a brigade level in the 60s, so they could be rapidly deployed into SE Asia. There is a brigade in Brisbane because it was a cheap place to concentrate them in the early 70s after the VietNam War. There is no other reason these brigades are where they are today.

Also no Australian brigade realistically trains to fight in its local area. 1 Brigade was moved to Darwin to ‘defend’ the north west of Australia but doesn’t exactly train to defend local beaches from invasion. Even 2 Division which had the local defence role for the north of Australia doesn’t train for this anymore. Units train to deploy overseas on current missions (Afghanistan, Timor, Solomons) and to provide rapid reaction.

 

[jack412]

you can't go past this quote about having a gagged DMO as the sacrificial lamb when it hits the fan.....

Several communications have been leaked to The Age over the past month.
The motivation, it seems, is a desire to avoid future headlines about the Bushmaster Ute, ones that echo past reports of ''rusty ships'' and ''dud subs''.
''When it all blows up in the media about bungling the Bushmaster Ute, the government will stand back and let DMO take the fall,'' said one person involved with the tender. ''The amount of government interference in the project is enormous.''

 

[Kirkzzy]

Does anyone know why 2RAR has four rifle companies when every other battalion has 3?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Does anyone know why 2RAR has four rifle companies when every other battalion has 3?

The Army is in the middile of transforming from a structure of four companies per battalion to three companies with bigger platoons per battalion. But many battalions, now and then and in the future are under strength and will not have all of their companies raised. But 1 and 2 RAR have been high readiness units so have been kept at full strength since the 1980s. 2RAR has converted to the new modernised infantry battalion (3 inf coy) some time ago.

However when battalions deploy combat team(s) on operations they sometimes form a holding company for elements of their companies, new inductess and the like who are not deploying. So will often form a fourth company HQ to manage these leftovers while the rest is deployed to theatre.

 

[rossfrb_1]

Land 17

Now there is a suggested third possible contender for Land17 - however it was my understanding that the K9 had essentially been selected. The current wait due to AFATDS integration.
ADM: Is this what L17 has been waiting for?

I think someone is stirring the pot.
M109 is L39 calibre - there is an L52 variant apparently, but I can't see if M109 PIM would have that.(army seems to have its heart set on L52), non MRSI (another must have it seems), but would appear to come with AFATDS integrated. Also that magical "inter operable with US" tag.

Anybody know if an M109 PIM has L52 & MRSI capable?

cheers
rb

 

[lopez]

what do you think this means?

New defence uniforms on the way


and what is the time table for the new cams to replace the old?

does anyone have any ideas what the pattern will looke like?

 

[gf0012-aust]

what do you think this means?

New defence uniforms on the way


and what is the time table for the new cams to replace the old?

does anyone have any ideas what the pattern will looke like?

its called splash camo and the specials have been using them for a while.

hopefully, in the universal uniform concept we don't see RAN end up with the USN camo - there were a few of them based at HQJOV for TS11 and they were just plain awful.

 

[Raven22]

Splash camo? Who calls it splash camo? Actually, who calls it camo?

The timeline for the new uniform depends on a number of factors, but prototypes will start being produced at the end of the year, with initial issues for trials next year. The longer timeline will see the new uniform completely replace the old uniform (within the Army anyway) by about 2015.

The new Australian Multicam looks very similar to normal multicam. I saw a sample of the pattern and it took me some time to notice the difference. The requirement simply states that it should be distinguishable from normal Multicam at 5m - further away it will be hard to tell the difference. One 'feature' though is that the pattern sports tiny, thumbnail sized ADF logos inbedded in the pattern, so it can be distinguished as authentic issue. Something to do with copyright I think.

The pattern is good, I just hope they don't adopt the Crye design for the cut. It has good features, but overall its rubbish.

 

[StingrayOZ]

One 'feature' though is that the pattern sports tiny, thumbnail sized ADF logos inbedded in the pattern, so it can be distinguished as authentic issue. Something to do with copyright I think..

I would imagine thats so the ADF can easily confirm that everyone is "in uniform" with the correct pattern. With patterns looking so simular, you could end up with someone wearing a pattern of an enemy on a vest etc. Soon they will have to start printing revision or part numbers on them.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

One 'feature' though is that the pattern sports tiny, thumbnail sized ADF logos inbedded in the pattern, so it can be distinguished as authentic issue. Something to do with copyright I think.

Yay logo wear. Hundreds of ADF logos on the cloth, Rising Stars on the boots and those stupid brigade patch monstrosities on the shoulder… Plus the biscuit on the other shoulder, two badges and a colour patch on the slouch hat… How many badges is that?

Maybe army should allow company level patches on the chest? At least the unofficial squadron/battery/company logos look cool.

I remember when most unit commanders wouldn't even let you wear a name tag and the only badge was the regimental on the downside of the slouch hat. Then UCPs came back into fashion and it has all been downhill since then.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Splash camo? Who calls it splash camo? Actually, who calls it camo?

The company calls it splash camo... I've heard worse, eg barf camo

 

[gf0012-aust]

I would imagine thats so the ADF can easily confirm that everyone is "in uniform" with the correct pattern. With patterns looking so simular, you could end up with someone wearing a pattern of an enemy on a vest etc. Soon they will have to start printing revision or part numbers on them.

the all green uniform for all services craps me off. I go to meetings out at B1 and have to look at the shoulders to confirm whether they're RAAF or Army, at least the navy still have their snappy patch boilersuits

 

[justsomeaussie]

I've never been to Iraq so I don't know how DPDU went there, but I was amazed to see how poor DPDU performed in the Ghan. Even more surprising was how we were able to shake the "Australian Idendity" and go down the multicam path. Well done defence for actually caring about the kit you are giving soldiers.

 

[riksavage]

I've never been to Iraq so I don't know how DPDU went there, but I was amazed to see how poor DPDU performed in the Ghan. Even more surprising was how we were able to shake the "Australian Idendity" and go down the multicam path. Well done defence for actually caring about the kit you are giving soldiers.

DPDU did stick out, particularly in the Green Zone.

Plus there are other identifiers, which distinguish Aus from both UK/US soldiers wearing similar patterns - weapons, vehicles, body-armour/load-carrying vest, national flag shoulder patches - the list goes on and on.

I suspect the Kiwi's will switch across next (not just SF), they can buy either the US or UK fabric in bulk rather than invest in a unique pattern complete with miniature 'Kiwi' birds.

 

[justsomeaussie]

DPDU did stick out, particularly in the Green Zone.

Plus there are other identifiers, which distinguish Aus from both UK/US soldiers wearing similar patterns - weapons, vehicles, body-armour/load-carrying vest, national flag shoulder patches - the list goes on and on.

I suspect the Kiwi's will switch across next (not just SF), they can buy either the US or UK fabric in bulk rather than invest in a unique pattern complete with miniature 'Kiwi' birds.

The best phase they keep banging out is "unique Australian conditions - in Afghanistan".

 

[Volkodav]

When I joined the Army reserve in the early 90s I was amazed at the variety of firearms still in service.

This was back when the Steyr AUG (F88), Minimi (F89) and Mag 58 were entering service. On top of these there were the Browning High Power, F-1 (SMG), SLR, AR, BREN, M-60, M-16A1, M-203, M-79, MG3 and Browning 1919. The thing I found interesting was that there were no less than five different GPMG / MMG where one or two was the norm in most armies.

What I found really strange was the fact we had the BREN, AR, M-60, M1919 and MG3 in service at the same time, being replaced by the MAG 58, when the MAG or MG3 could have easily been substituted for all or any of them far earlier.

Curious if anyone knows why we didn't go for the MAG 58 on the Leopards instead of the MG3, if it was because the MG3 was in some way superior then why didn't we opt for the MG3 instead of the MAG58 as our new standard GPMG / MMG?

 

[Raven22]

Curious if anyone knows why we didn't go for the MAG 58 on the Leopards instead of the MG3, if it was because the MG3 was in some way superior then why didn't we opt for the MG3 instead of the MAG58 as our new standard GPMG / MMG?

We got the MG-3s with the Leopards because that is what the vehicle came with. Why go to the effort to change it (not an easy process for the coax mount). Its the same reason the buckets had 0.30 cals for so long.