Is the US military starting to turn into 90's Russia?

t68

Well-Known Member
My personal opinion is that current debt that the US finds itself in cannot be sustained, it will have to cut spending drastically. The military will have to share the some of the pain, I would not be surprised if a 10% cut was looming on the horizon for the defence department.

With a 10% cut across the board it will go some way to bring the US back from the brink of economic crash, one we have not seen the great depression of 1929 that lasted into the late 1930’s. It will have an effect on how the US military operates and other country’s will have to take more of a reasonability for their own defence and not rely on the US, a perfect example was the crisis of Libya were the US did not take the leading role, it did show how other can step up to the plate if and when required and also highlighted the shortcoming of defence spending in other’s.

IMHO personnel will be reduced from overseas posting to a bare minimum to maintain stores and equipment, pre positioned in strategic place’s to be drawn upon if and when required.
 

exported_kiwi

New Member
My personal opinion is that current debt that the US finds itself in cannot be sustained, it will have to cut spending drastically. The military will have to share the some of the pain, I would not be surprised if a 10% cut was looming on the horizon for the defence department.

With a 10% cut across the board it will go some way to bring the US back from the brink of economic crash, one we have not seen the great depression of 1929 that lasted into the late 1930’s. It will have an effect on how the US military operates and other country’s will have to take more of a reasonability for their own defence and not rely on the US, a perfect example was the crisis of Libya were the US did not take the leading role, it did show how other can step up to the plate if and when required and also highlighted the shortcoming of defence spending in other’s.

IMHO personnel will be reduced from overseas posting to a bare minimum to maintain stores and equipment, pre positioned in strategic place’s to be drawn upon if and when required.
Yeah, the US has to maintain their "POMCUS" equipment in order to react, when/if needed, but, I don't see it happening anytime soon after Iraq/'Ghan! Think, post VN!
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The short answer is no. The US military is a very long way away from looking like the Russian military did in the 90s.
 

NICO

New Member
Like many others who have served, I have witnessed waste in the US military. I think it is about time the services learn to live within their means. Best practices need to be enforced, needless waste eliminated, foreign and CONUS bases need to be closed,etc... Lot of this stuff would go a long way, also a smaller, leaner, more focused military would actually IMO be better for our country than the bloated machine it is today. Lots of bad practices/habits have been tolerated because we are at war, so let's get the hell out of Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya and go back to a more rational military in terms of what is really needed and procured.

So my response would be USA isn't (yet!) in the same situation Russian military faced or faces today.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
No I don't agree that the US military is any where near what Russia was in the 1990s. For one the political climate was totally different where in Russia's case you had the break up of the USSR happening. Plus economically Russia was a totally case, in that it was starting to the journey from a very centrally controlled communist economy to a western style "free market" economy.

However the US does have very substantial economic problems and it's budget deficit is getting beyond a joke. I am not being facetious in saying that, just realistic because at some stage the US is going to have to bite the bullet big time in order to deal to this huge large deficit. IMHO the US military needs to have a very thorough house cleaning in a budget and fiscal sense. For one they need to start accounting for every cent spent so they need to have an asset based accounting system.

Like t68 I would think a 10% budget cut would be on the cards at a bare minimum. IMHO a 20% one over a 5 - 10 year period would be better with far greater accountability for every cent. There needs to be a clean out of bureaucrats and arse warmers and a far greater distance between the arms manufactures and the purchasers. But that won't happen because too many people like politicians, aides on Capital Hill, companies, and consultants etc have to many noses in the trough.

There appears to be a lot of fat in the US military. They need to become lean & mean. I also think they have to re-evaluate what their mission is and what they realistically can and can't do with what they can field. I would like to see them take less of the load in NATO with the Europeans taking complete responsibility for NATO and the US only having a proportionate share along with the rest of the members.
 
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NICO

New Member
No I don't agree that the US military is any where near what Russia was in the 1990s. For one the political climate was totally different where in Russia's case you had the break up of the USSR happening. Plus economically Russia was a totally case, in that it was starting to the journey from a very centrally controlled communist economy to a western style "free market" economy.

However the US does have very substantial economic problems and it's budget deficit is getting beyond a joke. I am not being facetious in saying that, just realistic because at some stage the US is going to have to bite the bullet big time in order to deal to this huge large deficit. IMHO the US military needs to have a very thorough house cleaning in a budget and fiscal sense. For one they need to start accounting for every cent spent so they need to have an asset based accounting system.

Like t68 I would think a 10% budget cut would be on the cards at a bare minimum. IMHO a 20% one over a 5 - 10 year period would be better with far greater accountability for every cent. There needs to be a clean out of bureaucrats and arse warmers and a far greater distance between the arms manufactures and the purchasers. But that won't happen because too many people like politicians, aides on Capital Hill, companies, and consultants etc have to many noses in the trough.

There appears to be a lot of fat in the US military. They need to become lean & mean. I also think the have to re-evaluate what their mission is and what they realistically can and can't do with what they can field. I would like to see them take less of the load in NATO with the Europeans taking complete responsibility for NATO and the US only having a proportionate share along with the rest of the members.
Ngatimozart is right, when Soviet Union flew apart for a lack of a better word, it not only disrupted military units and bases but also the entire military industrial complex. Actually it would be fair to say the damage was worse and far more lasting for the industry than for the soldiers/sailors.

No one except a few crazies think the US should break apart.
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
No I don't agree that the US military is any where near what Russia was in the 1990s. For one the political climate was totally different where in Russia's case you had the break up of the USSR happening. Plus economically Russia was a totally case, in that it was starting to the journey from a very centrally controlled communist economy to a western style "free market" economy.

However the US does have very substantial economic problems and it's budget deficit is getting beyond a joke. I am not being facetious in saying that, just realistic because at some stage the US is going to have to bite the bullet big time in order to deal to this huge large deficit. IMHO the US military needs to have a very thorough house cleaning in a budget and fiscal sense. For one they need to start accounting for every cent spent so they need to have an asset based accounting system.

Like t68 I would think a 10% budget cut would be on the cards at a bare minimum. IMHO a 20% one over a 5 - 10 year period would be better with far greater accountability for every cent. There needs to be a clean out of bureaucrats and arse warmers and a far greater distance between the arms manufactures and the purchasers. But that won't happen because too many people like politicians, aides on Capital Hill, companies, and consultants etc have to many noses in the trough.

There appears to be a lot of fat in the US military. They need to become lean & mean. I also think they have to re-evaluate what their mission is and what they realistically can and can't do with what they can field. I would like to see them take less of the load in NATO with the Europeans taking complete responsibility for NATO and the US only having a proportionate share along with the rest of the members.

I would agree with most of what you said, however a 10-20% cut is too much and wont happen over night. A 5% cut is more likely.

Yes there is fat and waste in the defense department, but its not the only government agency thats full of waste, every one including the DoD, medicare, medicaid, and social security needs to be trimmed.

And when I say trim the DoD I don't mean cutting muscle and bone such as troops, weapons programs such as planes, ships, tanks and other equipment, I'm talking about cutting the bloated bureaucracy, the oversized 700,000 civilian work force employed by the DoD, too many contractors and subcontractors, the $6000 toilet seats and hammers assembled in 20 different states and all that useless crap of the like which does nothing to defend America and actually sucks money away from programs that the military really does need and want.

So lets not cut the number of aircraft carriers, lets not cut land based missiles and next generation bombers, or F-35 fighter jets, or ballistic missile submarines, or the ability to fight two wars or the 2.3 million active and national guard/reserve troops that protect America. Lets actually cut the actual waste and fat and not the muscle and bone of the Defense Department.

Also America's NATO European allies need to pick up their share of their own defense, America can pull out some of its troops in Europe but redeploy them to other areas around the globe where they are better needed.

And military health care and retirement costs....oh yeah that too needs a good long hard look at too. They needs to control its health care and personnel costs ASAP, which this along with the waste and fat should be dealt with before they ever think about force structure and capability cuts.

They need a lean, mean but yet still robust military. One where they can have both strong fiscal discipline in the DoD but still have the worlds best damn military that is robust and lean and mean. This is possible and it can be done if they do it right with good priorities and a good sound strategy.

Even if defense budgets still continue to grow, efficiency should always be important. That no matter how large the defense budget gets, every dollar and every cent is used for defending the US. So the American tax payers get their bang for their buck with no money wasted. However they should have done this in 2001 but instead they got lazy because their was endless money coming in and the Pentagon felt like it did not need to be efficient that they could always reach out for more money and not give a damn how much is wasted. That lazy and dangerous attitude in the Pentagon needs to stop if the Pentagon wants to maintain the best military in the world in the future. And I think they are finally starting to realize this.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
And when I say trim the DoD I don't mean cutting muscle and bone such as troops, weapons programs such as planes, ships, tanks and other equipment, I'm talking about cutting the bloated bureaucracy, the oversized 700,000 civilian work force employed by the DoD, too many contractors and subcontractors, the $6000 toilet seats and hammers assembled in 20 different states and all that useless crap of the like which does nothing to defend America and actually sucks money away from programs that the military really does need and want.

So lets not cut the number of aircraft carriers, lets not cut land based missiles and next generation bombers, or F-35 fighter jets, or ballistic missile submarines, or the ability to fight two wars or the 2.3 million active and national guard/reserve troops that protect America. Lets actually cut the actual waste and fat and not the muscle and bone of the Defense Department.
I think you will see a reduction in the muscle as you put it, trimming civilian numbers only goes part way of turning the DOD into a lean and mean fighting machine, while having a large airforce army and navy looks good on paper but if you don’t reduce your overheads you end up reduce your capacity anyway, no sense robbing Peter to pay Paul and still losing Paul at a later date.

No one wants to cut numbers but if you think the GFC was bad, I don’t want to think what will happen if the US economy falls off the cliff and I am sure as hell the Chinese holding the bag of US debt sure doesn’t want the US to fall over.
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
I think you will see a reduction in the muscle as you put it, trimming civilian numbers only goes part way of turning the DOD into a lean and mean fighting machine, while having a large airforce army and navy looks good on paper but if you don’t reduce your overheads you end up reduce your capacity anyway, no sense robbing Peter to pay Paul and still losing Paul at a later date.

No one wants to cut numbers but if you think the GFC was bad, I don’t want to think what will happen if the US economy falls off the cliff and I am sure as hell the Chinese holding the bag of US debt sure doesn’t want the US to fall over.
Well time will tell, I can only hope for the best, that the military and the president and congress don't just start hacking away at the military in the name of "Austerity America".
 

surpreme

Member
Pentagon Struggles to Keep Ships Sailing, Planes Flying As Budget Cuts Loom | Defense & Security News at DefenseTalk

after reading that article that sounds just like Russia's crisis in the 90's...Planes being grounded. Ships not having enough fuel to go anywhere. Repair's not getting taken care of..

I don't know if this is appropriate or not but US seriously needs to pull all soldiers from middle east and withdraw from the NATO campaign...
The US is not like the Russian in the 90's but do need to trim down its budget. Some units will start heading back to the US in 2012 from Afghan. Soon will have to leave the Middle East and Central Asia. Its going to be some painful decision the US will face.
 

Kirkzzy

New Member
100% agree with the above on Europe. There is no current threat, and European nations are using the US (as Gates said) to cut their own defence budgets. Libya really shows how the Europeans (or should I say France) can if they actually need to, pull their weight and do it on their own. (Apart from certain countries running out of missiles).

The US needs to deploy more assets to the Pacific as that seems to be where all the future powers (and possibly even Russia being among them) are building up.

And 10 or 11 carriers... really? (Maybe have less of a presence in the Atlantic)
 

HybridCyph3r_F1

New Member
US Military turning into 90's Russia? Definitely not.

Two points from the article that stick (at least to me) are:

"The odds of funding for a newer helicopter are so bleak that a current UH-1N pilot told an Air Force Times reporter: "Unfortunately, the best chance to get a replacement aircraft will be after an accident in which some senior leader in our government is injured or killed. Then the Air Force may finally take action."

Those further away from Battle have the most loose, while those in Battle have the least to loose. It reminds me of the thinkers who thought up of the Military Medal for "Courageous Restraint." (Furthest away from Battle.)

In essence, from the article, Senior military commanders have repeatedly said that soldiers and Marines "lack training for major combat operations using their entire range of weapons. For example, artillerymen are not practicing firing heavy guns but are instead doing counterinsurgency work as military police." Service members receiving training do not have the luxury of preparing for or focusing on only one type of conflict. They must be trained on all weapons systems and platforms for all types of contingencies--even while major combat operations are going on elsewhere. Falling defense budgets will only continue to hurt readiness, fleet size and composition, and the military's ability to respond to crises.

At least someone's doing their Duty. The question is who isn't?
 

Comrade69

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
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i have a question, the missile shield for NATO thats going to get put up for Europe to the "middle east" threat that Russia is screaming not to put up, is the US paying for that as well?
 

Haavarla

Active Member
F-15 Eagle;224453]Also America's NATO European allies need to pick up their share of their own defense, America can pull out some of its troops in Europe but redeploy them to other areas around the globe where they are better needed.
Dude, to what end?
In case you havent notice, most of european countries aren't doing that great on their eco.
So your answer is to increase THE DEFENCE SPENDING?

Surly not..
We don't want to end up in US current situation do we?

They need a lean, mean but yet still robust military. One where they can have both strong fiscal discipline in the DoD but still have the worlds best damn military that is robust and lean and mean. This is possible and it can be done if they do it right with good priorities and a good sound strategy.
If you want a lean, dynamic and healty military, US military is in for cuts.
There is no other way around this problem.
And it will be more than 5%, thrust me..
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
US will cut the number of carrier group from 10 to 9, but it's still much bigger than anyone else able to send to the sea including potential big comers in carrier game like India or China.

US Defense Industry is one of the corner stone of US economy, do remembered that many advancement of US technology even for civilian used comes from Defence Industry. So the defense industry will stay relatively strong.

What will happen, the US will try to get their Asian Allies, or Australia, in which the economy are not suffering as much as Europe to take more slack. This in the end will also provide some jobs to US defense industry.

So no, US Military still remain World biggest player for some time in the future.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Carrier Groups or Carrier Air Groups, big difference.

At some stage in the future, the US military will by necessity have to take budget cuts if the US Government decides to make a serious attempt to start paying down their debt.

That doesnt mean that the US Military will turn into 1990's Russia though, as long as Force quantity is reduced along with the budget.
 

lucinator

New Member
One also has to remember that this could all change after 2012 elections, based on what seats in congress change, this could look totally different in a couple of years.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
One also has to remember that this could all change after 2012 elections, based on what seats in congress change, this could look totally different in a couple of years.
The US has just had a credit downgrade from AAA to AA+ for the first time in it's history. The size of its debt is it's biggest problem at the moment and it's economy is taking a big hit. Wall St lost 5% overnight. Yes the 2012 elections are going to have an impact upon the size of the deficit cuts but the US is going to have to bite the bullet sooner rather than later. I think now well before November 2012 because the markets are very jittery. That translates in dollars and no economy can afford to have billions wiped off it's current market value daily.

The US defence budget is at moment about 4 times that of China's going on recent figures. As yet China is really only a regional player as far as military power projection goes. For it to become a global player will take time maybe 30 - 40 years to get to stage where it has the ability to be at a really competent level operationally in all aspects. The US has a deficit that is US$14.7 trillion hanging around it's neck like a very large millstone and is a ticking time bomb. IMHO that is the largest threat to US national security at the moment. Not China nor Russia nor Iran nor the Taliban. Another point. China owns US$1.2 trillion of that debt. What happens if they decide they want the monies owed to them by the US?
 
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