F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

[the road runner]

When Australia placed its order for the first 14 JSF we ordered Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) Aircraft.Can someone explain ,is a LRIP aircraft just that?

They only produce a low number of JSF as the Line is still being built up to produce larger numbers of JSF?

I also remember a while back a comment about Australia trying to sell some of its LRIP Aircraft to other partners in the JSF?

Sorry just trying to get my head around this,as im assuming a LRIP JSF will be the same as a Full production JSF?

Regards

 

[Twinblade]

$11 billion makes it $87 million per airframe. That is plenty to cover the acquisition cost of an FRP F-35. The question becomes; is the $11 billion supposed to cover only the acquisition or the complete purchase & lifetime costs? There is also infrastructure, parts, etc to consider. We shall see, but I won't hold my breath.

unless LM guarantees deliveries by 2016 from an Indian assembly line, you won't see it happening.

India expects setting up an Indian assembly line, development of vendors, logistics chain, pilot and ground crew training, transfer of technology in certain critical areas, ability to integrate Indian weapons (without raytheon and LM crew)... in short they want everything to be able to operate, arm and maintain their fleet independently because of their embargo-phobia, and yes they will like it to be within 10.2 billion :

 

[SpudmanWP]

The FY2012 budget puts the REC Flyaway of an F/A-18E/F at $57.7 million each (includes engine, cannon & avionics, but not FLIR pods). Add the needed FLIR pod and the price will be inline with the FRP F-35 $60.7 million in the above quote.

 

[Todjaeger]

unless LM guarantees deliveries by 2016 from an Indian assembly line, you won't see it happening.

India expects setting up an Indian assembly line, development of vendors, logistics chain, pilot and ground crew training, transfer of technology in certain critical areas, ability to integrate Indian weapons (without raytheon and LM crew)... in short they want everything to be able to operate, arm and maintain their fleet independently because of their embargo-phobia, and yes they will like it to be within 10.2 billion :

Well, if India requires all that for something like the F-35, then India will not be getting the F-35.

As posted previously about a possible F-35 order by Japan, domestic assembly and incorporation of local component manufacture would require the approval of F-35 coalition partners, particularly the partners that have subsystem/subassembly production agreements. It would be against the various coalition members' national interests for India to be allowed such production, since the F-35 production agreements (most of them anyway...) cover production for all models, for everyone. As I had brought up some time ago, if Australia is making a specific component or subassembly like the tail, then Australian-made tails would be found in essentially all F-35's produced. If India wished to order F-35's, but have them assembled with Indian-made tails, Australia would have to agree to allow such a modification to the F-35 production contracts. That and there would need to be a reason for Australia to forego the revenue, as well as the reduction in domestic production activity and the possibility of a line closure. In short, "What is in it for Australia?" Similar situations exist for most of the other major F-35 coalition partners, which various pieces are manufactured in different countries, with final assembly in Texas, or a small number assembled in Italy.

And of course this does not even get into any ToT issues.

-Cheers

 

[Twinblade]

Well, if India requires all that for something like the F-35, then India will not be getting the F-35.

As posted previously about a possible F-35 order by Japan, domestic assembly and incorporation of local component manufacture would require the approval of F-35 coalition partners, particularly the partners that have subsystem/subassembly production agreements. It would be against the various coalition members' national interests for India to be allowed such production, since the F-35 production agreements (most of them anyway...) cover production for all models, for everyone. As I had brought up some time ago, if Australia is making a specific component or subassembly like the tail, then Australian-made tails would be found in essentially all F-35's produced. If India wished to order F-35's, but have them assembled with Indian-made tails, Australia would have to agree to allow such a modification to the F-35 production contracts. That and there would need to be a reason for Australia to forego the revenue, as well as the reduction in domestic production activity and the possibility of a line closure. In short, "What is in it for Australia?" Similar situations exist for most of the other major F-35 coalition partners, which various pieces are manufactured in different countries, with final assembly in Texas, or a small number assembled in Italy.

And of course this does not even get into any ToT issues.

-Cheers

As i said, we won't see it happening

 

[SpudmanWP]

Go back and read the MOU again. It only covers the F-35s sold to the signatories of the MOU. LM/DoD is free to create whatever kind of deal they want to with FMS customers.

 

[ADMk2]

I am sure the cynics are shocked the flyaway cost is so low compared to the misinformation they have been spreading. This nugget of truth might just be the reason why so many countries haven't opted out of the JSF... :lam

Relatively low cost and superior capability are the main reasons one suspects...

Local work packages and long term supportability are the others...

Despite all the naysayers, ABJ'ers (anything but JSF) the problems with the program to date and all the rest of it, no partner nation has pulled out of the program even today...

They must be on to something about this aircraft...

 

[gf0012-aust]

unless LM guarantees deliveries by 2016 from an Indian assembly line, you won't see it happening.

India expects setting up an Indian assembly line, development of vendors, logistics chain, pilot and ground crew training, transfer of technology in certain critical areas, ability to integrate Indian weapons (without raytheon and LM crew)... in short they want everything to be able to operate, arm and maintain their fleet independently because of their embargo-phobia, and yes they will like it to be within 10.2 billion :

then india better walk away now - as she won't be getting that kind of access or build rights

they're dreaming and need a reality check

 

[Twinblade]

then india better walk away now - as she won't be getting that kind of access or build rights

they're dreaming and need a reality check

actually its LM that's dreaming of coming back into MMRCA

 

[gf0012-aust]

actually its LM that's dreaming of coming back into MMRCA

then I'd suggest that they walk away as well.

1) LM is not the owner on an FMS sale - US State is
2) State has to approve the export - LM can do squat
3) A fair amount of the tech developed is by the existing partners - LM cannot on sell those elements without those countries releasing IP - I can tell you now that some won't

The rules to sell to India are the same to sell to anyone else outside of the 8+3 club,

When State Dept start making positive noises, then LM has some traction - at that point goto 3

 

[ADMk2]

actually its LM that's dreaming of coming back into MMRCA

L-M is about to sell roughly 3000 F-35 fighters. Even MMRCA + options equals a about 5% of that figure.

I'm sure L-M would love to sell 126 to India, but let's keep MMRCA in perspective. It's a huge deal for 2 fighter manufacturers that between them have yet to land 100 exports of their product, but next the to the F-35's sales it will be pretty small fare...

 

[jack412]

Sorry just trying to get my head around this,as im assuming a LRIP JSF will be the same as a Full production JSF?

Regards

dont worry about it, its near impossible to work out, the LRIP's URF price are dearer than full production price

this is what SAR released and is different to the LM quote, you'll need the calculator to get it back to unit price
page 29/30

http://www.fas.org/man/eprint/F-35-SAR.pdf

 

[SpudmanWP]

The F-35 & Northern Edge exercises also had the APG-81 & data-links as part of the tests.

Northrop Grumman Completes Successful Joint Strike Fighter Sensor Testing at Northern Edge 2011 Joint Exercise

Participating in the Northern Edge exercise for the second time, the AN/APG-81 radar demonstrated robust electronic protection, electronic attack, passive, maritime and experimental modes, and data-linked air and surface tracks to improve legacy fighter situational awareness.

 

[SpudmanWP]

Due to better performance in flight testing and test points, the USMC is pulling 2 F-35Bs from the schedule early to get them ready for shipboard certification this fall. They also see IOC as late 2014/early 2015 for the F-35B.

USMC Expect First F-35B In Service Early 2015 | AVIATION WEEK

 

[moahunter]

Maybe we should try and put together a sticky thread with all these questions that continually get repeated answered so people who haven't been following this thread or the F35 in general don't come here and spout the same old doomsday stuff after reading the latest defence reporting masterpiece?

I think its perfectly valid to discuss the cost issues with this program and how this is being discussed now as the price tag has escalated to more than a trillion dollars (which is quite simply, unaffordable).

There is a new Senate bill to try and reign in the costs a bit:

DailyTech - U.S. Senate Bill Aims to Keep Costs in Check With Lockheed F-35 LRIP-5

The U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee has passed a bill on June 16 that required the LRIP-5 purchase set for 2012 to be at a fixed price. That means that any cost overruns in the development or production of the F-35 purchase will be absorbed totally by suppliers.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I think its perfectly valid to discuss the cost issues with this program and how this is being discussed now as the price tag has escalated to more than a trillion dollars (which is quite simply, unaffordable).

Sure but you're kidding yourself if you think that there is a price tag out there for a trillion dollars. A price tag is how much you have to pay to acquire something. When you buy a car the price tag does not include a life of servicing, fuel use, etc.

There is an estimate that over the 50 year life of an aircraft in an environment of massive fuel inflation that the total cost for some 2,500 units could come to a trillion dollars. But while this sounds awesome for the uninformed it is no different to a similar estimate for any other type of aircraft in this time period or perhaps for a very prescient person back in the 1950s: “the B-52 will cost 100 billion dollars over its lifetime!”

The actual price tag for the F-35 is far more manageable. Something around $70 million per aircraft (averaged) in today’s dollars. I calculated it for you earlier on in this thread so look it up for the actual figure. Interestingly the inflation adjusted unit cost of buying around 2,500 F-35s for the US Forces is actually around the same as the unit cost for buying around 700 B-52s in the 1950s and 60s.

 

[ADMk2]

I think its perfectly valid to discuss the cost issues with this program and how this is being discussed now as the price tag has escalated to more than a trillion dollars (which is quite simply, unaffordable).

There is a new Senate bill to try and reign in the costs a bit:

DailyTech - U.S. Senate Bill Aims to Keep Costs in Check With Lockheed F-35 LRIP-5

Forgot we discussed this very issue only one week ago, have we? I know Abe just addressed it, but that Trillion Dollar price tag is the PROJECTED cost of operated 2443 F-35 aircraft for 65 years.

If you can't understand that operating such a large fleet for so long is going to be expensive, then why are you even here? Why don't you go and work out what the cost of the USAF / USAF NG F-16 fleet has been across it's entire length of service, you'll find that a pretty daunting number too.

You are simply being obtuse if you think that figure is the "price tag" for the aircraft, or you are simply trolling.

Either way, I'd suggest you start discussing in a more constructive manner, soon...

 

[dragonfire]

Saw a few discussions on the possibility of the Indian Purchase of the JSF

Thought i would share my Observations

• LM is interested in India becoming a customer for the F-35.
• MMRCA is not going to go to the F-35 platform, it will either be the Rafale or the EuroFighter
• India is invested heavily in the Pak-FA, FGFA for its 5th Gen Fighter again preventing the sale to IAF
• Indian Navy is exploring the possibility of acquiring the platform for carrier based operations

,

On the last point however this still too early to make predictions of an order, since it depends on IN deciding on the carrier operations model for its planned carrier (the next carrier being planned could pan out for a 3rd Indian AC which could be in the same form as that of the 2nd AC)

Also what works out to a disadvantage to the F-35 is the Indian ambition of building its own 5th Gen Fighter the AMCA, if the F-35 comes in it is sure to die so it would not be an easy job for LM to get IAF as a customer, however IN should definitely be wooed by LM.

Also saw posts which stated that India would expect a production line for the F-35 in India by 2016, come on.. Indians have high expectations from its suppliers but not this much. It is simply incredulous, there have been no reports/ indications to that effect, IAF & MoD personnel are professionals not people creating dreamlands. In order to voice such expectations India should be able to atleast project a significant order size ! which in current situation cannot be foreseen (as per points above)

 

[fretburner]

Lockheed adds $771 million to early F-35 production bills

...Sen John McCain, minority leader of the Senate Armed Services Committee, on 12 July revealed the amount of the F-35 cost overrun on his Twitter account, adding the revelation was "outrageous" and "disgraceful"...

I'm starting to believe that this fighter will be lucky to get 50% of what was initially planned for it. Especially if Obama loses in 2012.

 

[Swampfox157]

Lockheed adds $771 million to early F-35 production bills

...Sen John McCain, minority leader of the Senate Armed Services Committee, on 12 July revealed the amount of the F-35 cost overrun on his Twitter account, adding the revelation was "outrageous" and "disgraceful"...

I'm starting to believe that this fighter will be lucky to get 50% of what was initially planned for it. Especially if Obama loses in 2012.

Well, God willing, he will, but that's not the issue at hand here. There have been serious concerns raised about the Air National Guard. ANG F-16s are the primary interceptors available over CONUS, and these are set to be retired by 2025. I'm extremely concerned that the ANG either will receive their JSFs late, after their Vipers have been retired, or that the JSF buy will be cut below acceptable minimums. In that case, SOMETHING needs to be bought to maintain the CONUS air defense ability. I'm either for F-16E/F airframes or 150-odd more Raptors from the next administration.