F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The article I posted a link to provided a pretty compelling case for the alternaitve, which would be considerably cheaper, and would maintain capability (except for marines STOVL, which is probably dead anyway since RN pulled out of F35b). Order a few more F22's to ensure air superiority (also a bone for Lockheed). Order some F15se's (combat air support), order some Superhornets (Navy / Marines), order some F16's (bombtrucks), i.e. don't put all eggs in one basket. And at the same time, spend some money to keep the research going on the F35, and also ucav drone programes. In a decade, re-evaluate the options.

And if nothing else, from a purely selfish viewpoint, having more types of planes and contracts is going to be a lot more interesting to discuss and evaluate than just watching Lockheed rake in the bucks for the F35 for the next 30 years ;-)
The eggs aren't being put into "one basket". The USAF alone is maintainng the F-22, F-15E and a fleet of approximately 170 "Golden Eagles" AESA equipped F-15C models to operate alongside the F-35A in it's tacair fleet. That's nearly 600 fighters that isn't the F-35A. Interesting enough?

USN will have aproximately 700 Super Hornet and Growler aircraft operating alongside it's F-35's and even the USMC is now going to buy the F-35C to operate alongside it's F-35B fleet.

Research into UCAV's is on-going but they are a long way off being a viable replacement for a manned fighter even if some hold them out to be the "great white hope" experience has shown with modern UAV's that the cost isn't necessarily going to be all that much less than a manned fighter anyway...
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
Per the FY2012 USAF budget docs:
147 F-15C/Ds getting the APG-63(V)3 upgrade
176 getting an Avionics upgrade
250 new Flight Data Recorders
473 (covers both F-15C/D and F-15E airframes) IFF Mode 5 upgrades
250 SATCOM kits

If the 18 F-15Cs that got the APG-63(V)2 were considered "Golden Eagles" then the total is 165 Golden Eagles.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
More like 140 'Golden Eagles'.
And remind me again, how many Golden Eagles have seen the upgrade by now?
176x in total are to be upgraded according to Flight Global:

USAF adds IRST pod for F-15s

USAF is currently budgeted within FY11 to have 90 F-15C "Golden Eagles' in service by 2018, with 45x aircraft upgraded by September 2011.

A total of 54 upgraded "Golden Eagles" are to be deployed to Kadena air base by September 2013.

Boeing: Upgraded Boeing F-15Cs Arrive at US Air Force’s Kadena Air Base

Additionally 88x F-15E's will have received their APG-82v 1 AESA radar's by 2016 with the entire F-15E fleet equipped by 2022.

More Details on F-15 Radar Modernization

USAF is intending to operate ia 200x fleet of F-15E Strike Eagles to at least 2035.

USAF prepares upgrade strategy for F-15E fleet

Regards,

AD
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
That Flight Global article is a little misleading as it implies that not all of the "Golden Eagles" will be getting an AESA radar.

The USAF plans to retire about 170 C/D model aircraft in 2010, reducing its non-stealthy air superiority fighter fleet from about 400 to 230 fighters. This is expected to be further reduced to a core of 176.

F-15C operations will be boosted by the IRST upgrade

These so-called "Golden Eagles" may be in line for further upgrades, including active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars and digital electronic warfare suites.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
By Golden Eagle, i meant with this radar.
Isn't the v(3) AESA radar taget for 140 F-15C?
147 as per the budget doc stats posted by Spudman below. This may be "combat coded" jets whilst the earlier v2 radar equipped versions are used for training purposes in future years?
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Selected excerpts from the June 12 article in F-35A Testing Moves Into High Speeds - Defense News

Meanwhile, the Edwards test pilots are also pushing the F-35 into high-speed tests.

Within the past month, they have moved from a top speed of Mach 1.3 to Mach 1.53 at 39,000 feet. Soon, the pilots hope to hit the aircraft's maximum speed of 700 knots.

"We're taking baby steps out there to make sure our air data system is meeting our predictions, so therefore we don't just jump out to Mach 1.6," Griffiths said.

Still, tests are progressing rapidly.

"We're in the process of clearing out that envelope pretty quickly," he said.

Once the aircraft achieves its maximum airspeed, the pilots will begin testing g-loading at high airspeeds and various altitudes. Most of the envelope will be rated to 9 G, Griffiths said.

Then the pilots will start the tests again, this time laden with weapons.
Compare And Contrast

The F-35's ability to carry weapons and a large fuel load inside its own skin makes the plane far less draggy on a combat mission than the F-16 or F/A-18, which sling missiles, bombs and fuel tanks below their wings and fuselage, Griffiths said . Moreover, a combat-laden F-16 loses much maneuverability, whereas the F-35 is barely affected by carrying 18,000 pounds of internal fuel and 5,000 of internal weaponry.

"It flies fantastic," he said.

Griffiths declined to compare the F-35 to the F-16s he once flew. But he noted the F-16 is only technically an 800-knot and Mach 2.02 aircraft. In practical terms, most pilots will never see speeds above 700 knots or Mach 1.6 because real-world load-outs don't allow it.

The F-35 can't supercruise like the F-22 Raptor, but the test pilots have found that once they break the sound barrier, supersonic speeds are easy to sustain.

"What we can do in our airplane is get above the Mach with afterburner, and once you get it going ... you can definitely pull the throttle back quite a bit and still maintain supersonic, so technically you're pretty much at very, very min[imum] afterburner while you're cruising," Griffiths said. "So it really does have very good acceleration capabilities up in the air."
Though the F-35's maximum speed is Mach 1.6, the F-35 test program will eventually push the jet a little beyond that limit to make sure operational pilots have a margin of safety, Griffiths said.
As of May 31, Griffiths said, the Edwards F-35s had flown a total of 2,513 test points against a plan of 1,995. As of that date, the F-35A was hitting all of its key performance parameters, and radar cross-section testing is exceeding specifications.
 

Comrade69

Banned Member
well lately i been bored and started researching this jet and after reading up on it all i gota say is why hasnt this project been abandoned yet? it seems like a financial failure..i read this on wiki
On 21 April 2009, media reports, citing Pentagon sources, said that during 2007 and 2008, computer spies had managed to copy and siphon off several terabytes of data related to the F-35's design and electronics systems, potentially enabling the development of defense systems against the aircraft.[33] However, Lockheed Martin has rejected suggestions that the project has been compromised, saying that it "does not believe any classified information had been stolen".[34]

On 9 November 2009, Ashton Carter, under-secretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics, acknowledged that the Pentagon "joint estimate team" (JET) had found possible future cost and schedule overruns in the project and that he would be holding meetings to attempt to avoid these.[35] On 1 February 2010, Gates removed JSF Program Manager U.S. Marine Major-General David Heinz and withheld $614 million in payments to Lockheed Martin because of program costs and delays.[36][37]

On 11 March 2010, a report from the Government Accountability Office to United States Senate Committee on Armed Services projected the overall unit cost of an F-35A to be $112M in today's money.[38] In 2010, Pentagon officials disclosed that the F-35 program has exceeded its original cost estimates by more than 50 percent.[39] An internal Pentagon report critical of the JSF project states that "affordability is no longer embraced as a core pillar". On 24 March, Gates termed the recent cost overruns and delays as "unacceptable" in a testimony before the U.S. Congress. He characterized previous cost and schedule estimates for the project as "overly rosy". However, Gates insisted the F-35 would become "the backbone of U.S. air combat for the next generation" and informed the Congress that he had expanded the development period by an additional 13 months and budgeted $3 billion more for the testing program while slowing down production.[40] Lockheed Martin expects to reduce government cost estimates by 20%.[41]

In November 2010 as part of a cost-cutting measure, the co-chairs of the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform suggested canceling procurement of the F-35B and halving orders of F-35As and F-35Cs.[42][43][44] At the same time Air Force Magazine reported that "Pentagon officials" are considering canceling the F-35B because its short range means that the bases or ships it operates from will be within range of hostile tactical ballistic missiles.[45] However Lockheed Martin consultant Loren B. Thompson said that this rumor is merely a result of the usual tensions between the US Navy and Marine Corps, and there is no alternative to the F-35B as an AV-8B replacement.[46] He also confirmed that there would be further delays and cost increases in the development process because of technical problems with the aircraft and software, but blamed most of the delays and extra costs on redundant flight test.[47][48]

The Center for Defense Information estimated that the program would be restructured with an additional year of delay and $5 billion in additional costs.[49] On 5 November 2010, the Block 1 software flew for the first time on BF-4 which included information fusion and initial weapons-release capability.[50] As of the end of 2010, only 15% of the software remains to be written, but this includes the most difficult sections such as data fusion.[51] But in 2011 it was revealed that only 50% of the eight million lines of code had actually been written and that it would take another six years and 110 additional software engineers in order to complete the software for this new schedule.[52]

In January 2011 Defense Secretary Robert Gates expressed the Pentagon's frustration with the skyrocketing costs of the F-35 program when he said "The culture of endless money that has taken hold must be replaced by a culture of restraint." Focusing his attention on the troubled VTOL F-35B Gates ordered "a two-year probation", saying it "should be canceled" if corrections are unsuccessful.[53] However, Gates has stated his support for the program.[54] Some private analysts, such as Richard Aboulafia, of the Teal Group state that the whole F-35 program is becoming a money pit.[53]

Former Pentagon manager Paul Kaminski has said that the lack of a complete test plan has added five years to the JSF program.[55] As of February 2011, the main flaws with the aircraft are engine "screech", transonic wing roll-off and display flaws in the helmet mounted display.[56]

The current schedule has the delivery of basic combat capability aircraft in late 2015, followed by full capability block three software in late 2016.[57] The $56.4 billion development project for the aircraft should be completed in 2018 when the block five configuration is expected to be delivered, several years late and considerably over budget.[58]

In November 2010, the GAO found that "Managing an extensive, still-maturing global network of suppliers adds another layer of complexity to producing aircraft efficiently and on-time" and that "However, due to the extensive amount of testing still to be completed, the program could be required to make alterations to its production processes, changes to its supplier base, and costly retrofits to produced and fielded aircraft, if problems are discovered."[59]

Delays in the F-35 program may lead to a "fighter gap" where America will lack sufficient jet fighters to cover requirements.[60] This gap may become even worse if Israel takes away fighters from the USAF to cover their own gap caused by the F-35 delays.[61] Australia may also seek to lease American fighters from the USN to cover their own capability gap in the face of F-35 delays.[62][63][64]

Initial Operational Capability (IOC) will be determined by software development rather than by hardware production or pilot training.[65]

In 2011 Carter said that the new $133 million price per aircraft was not affordable.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
well lately i been bored and started researching this jet and after reading up on it all i gota say is why hasnt this project been abandoned yet? it seems like a financial failure..i read this on wiki
Take anything sourced from wiki with a grain of salt. A large grain.

It might be valuable to go back and actually read this thread, as there are a number of posts within which will explain why the F-35 programme has not been dropped.

-Cheers
 

jeffb

Member
Take anything sourced from wiki with a grain of salt. A large grain.

It might be valuable to go back and actually read this thread, as there are a number of posts within which will explain why the F-35 programme has not been dropped.

-Cheers
Maybe we should try and put together a sticky thread with all these questions that continually get repeated answered so people who haven't been following this thread or the F35 in general don't come here and spout the same old doomsday stuff after reading the latest defence reporting masterpiece?
 

Comrade69

Banned Member
Maybe we should try and put together a sticky thread with all these questions that continually get repeated answered so people who haven't been following this thread or the F35 in general don't come here and spout the same old doomsday stuff after reading the latest defence reporting masterpiece?
that would be nice

reading a thread with 82 pages isnt really fun
 

jack412

Active Member
https://www.macquarie.com.au/edge/article/COMPANY/JET/8685be93bda60310VgnVCM100000c502890aRCRD/
Maker reaffirms its commitment to fighter jet delivery By David Ellery Defence Reporter

Prices for early production F-35 Joint Strike Fighters including the two Australia has on order for delivery in 2014 will be controlled to ensure the project proceeds to plan.

Lockheed Martin Strategic Studies Group director Keith O.Tucker said yesterday, "There is no way [the JSF project] will be endangered by something as simple as price [negotiations]."He said the program was solid and that Lockheed Martin believed in it very strongly.

Mr Tucker said the latest indications were the "recurrent flyaway cost" of an individual jet [in full production] would come in about $60.7million; similar to an F-18 Super Hornet or other advanced fourth generation fighter
 

t68

Well-Known Member
https://www.macquarie.com.au/edge/article/COMPANY/JET/8685be93bda60310VgnVCM100000c502890aRCRD/
Maker reaffirms its commitment to fighter jet delivery By David Ellery Defence Reporter

Prices for early production F-35 Joint Strike Fighters including the two Australia has on order for delivery in 2014 will be controlled to ensure the project proceeds to plan.

Lockheed Martin Strategic Studies Group director Keith O.Tucker said yesterday, "There is no way [the JSF project] will be endangered by something as simple as price [negotiations]."He said the program was solid and that Lockheed Martin believed in it very strongly.

Mr Tucker said the latest indications were the "recurrent flyaway cost" of an individual jet [in full production] would come in about $60.7million; similar to an F-18 Super Hornet or other advanced fourth generation fighter
I was under the impression that Australia had 14 on order so far.

Quote

“In addition to US and UK orders, the potential exists for over 2,000 F-35 sales to export customers. The international partners currently involved in the program have expressed tentative plans for nearly 600 aircraft. Australia has ordered 14 and expressed an ultimate need for 100. Israel has ordered 20 with an option for 75 more. Italy is interested in up to 131 planes (including 22 F-35B models for the Navy), Turkey is considering 116, the Netherlands 85, Canada 60, and Denmark and Norway may buy 48 apiece. The F-35 program is encouraging international partners to commit to firm orders as soon as possible. Convincing the partners to do so may prove difficult, however, given past development delays that have driven up costs and pushed service entry back from 2011 to 2013. These delays may cause international partners to instead order competing aircraft like the Gripen or Eurofighter Typhoon that are already in production. Norway has threatened to pull out of the program over work share concerns, and Israel's involvement was suspended for several months in retaliation for possible technology transfer to China. Regardless, export sales are expected to be strong and F-35 production will likely last until at least 2030. Other potential export customers include Brazil, Finland, Greece, Japan, India, Singapore, South Korea, Spain, and Taiwan. “

Aerospaceweb.org | Aircraft Museum - F-35 Lightning II
 

jack412

Active Member
from what I gather, we had to let them know for long lead time items, I think we offically place the order this year
delivery 2 in 2014 and probably 4 a year for the other 12
then a future order for 50+ from full production
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
F-35 tested "virtually" at Alaska's Norther Edge exercises using BAC-111, Blk3 software, & EOTS/EODAS hardware.

JSF Sees Action in Alaska -- Virtually

Early results from the use of the F-35 Block III software are good after the Air Force used it during a recent Northern Edge exercise, ...

During the exercise, the software was pitted against various operationally representative threat systems. Moore says the EO/DAS system was able to track objects 360-deg. around the aircraft. This data was also properly displayed into the cockpit, he says.
 

Twinblade

Member
Lockheed May Tempt India With Stealth F-35

Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT) may offer its latest F-35 stealth fighter jet to India in a bid to rejoin the Asian country’s $11 billion combat-jet competition after the company’s older F-16 model was eliminated.
The Senate committee request for a Pentagon study on selling F-35s to India was part of a broader amendment on U.S.- India military ties offered by Senators John Cornyn, Republican of Texas, where the fighter is produced, and Joseph Lieberman, independent of Connecticut, home to United Technologies Corp. (UTX), which makes the plane’s engines.
Cornyn’s spokeswoman, Jessica Sandlin, said the amendment was “overwhelmingly adopted” by the Senate defense panel. Cornyn is the co-founder and co-chairman of the Senate India Caucus.
Not again, Not again !!!

On the other hand, considering that the senator is the co chairman of India caucus in senate, could it be a case of lobbying by India ?
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
$11 billion makes it $87 million per airframe. That is plenty to cover the acquisition cost of an FRP F-35. The question becomes; is the $11 billion supposed to cover only the acquisition or the complete purchase & lifetime costs? There is also infrastructure, parts, etc to consider. We shall see, but I won't hold my breath.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
https://www.macquarie.com.au/edge/article/COMPANY/JET/8685be93bda60310VgnVCM100000c502890aRCRD/
Maker reaffirms its commitment to fighter jet delivery By David Ellery Defence Reporter

Prices for early production F-35 Joint Strike Fighters including the two Australia has on order for delivery in 2014 will be controlled to ensure the project proceeds to plan.

Lockheed Martin Strategic Studies Group director Keith O.Tucker said yesterday, "There is no way [the JSF project] will be endangered by something as simple as price [negotiations]."He said the program was solid and that Lockheed Martin believed in it very strongly.

Mr Tucker said the latest indications were the "recurrent flyaway cost" of an individual jet [in full production] would come in about $60.7million; similar to an F-18 Super Hornet or other advanced fourth generation fighter
I am sure the cynics are shocked the flyaway cost is so low compared to the misinformation they have been spreading. This nugget of truth might just be the reason why so many countries haven't opted out of the JSF... :lam
 
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