Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[lamstang94]

RAN Helicopter Contract

Has anybody heard anything on the RAN Helicopter contract? They are choosing either the MH-60R or the NH90. A decision has been made I guess but havent heard anything leak out on who won.

 

[alexsa]

There were some questions earlier about why Teekay had been used to conduct the survey. In RFA service Largs Bay was run more like a merchant ship than a warship: merchant manning (crew of 69, not the widely quoted 60), built and classed to merchant construction rules, certified as a merchant ship. Teekay (and the Lloyds surveyors that accompanied them) understand merchant ship regulations, certification, equipment, etc. in a way that a RAN survey team might not. One of the acquisition options was a lease, in which case one of the condition may have been to maintain the civilian/merchant certification.

Sorry I have to object to this statement as it is based on assumption. Teekay would know conisderably less than LR, or any other top range member of IACS, about condition surveys of Merchant vessels. They are a vessel operator, not an inspection/certification specialist. I suspect the selection was more to do with the deire for an indpendent third party and Teekay's operation of the MT Delos for DMO.

 

[alexsa]

Here's a picture set post refit. I would imagine the new funnels would look a lot better when painted grey rather than beige. But this should free up a lot of internal space without all that trunking. Can't imagine why they ducted the exhausts aft in the first place.

: Ship Photos

At a guess I would suspect that having the exhausts on the quater would result ii reingestion of exhaust fumes into the vehicle decks throught the cargo space ventilation, particualry in a following or quartering breeze. that wouel be less than ideal. She is built to commercial specs and SOLAS requires significant air changes in the RO RO spaces, particularly where DG's are carried.

The other issus is in situations where the relative wind is zero (again following breeze or at anchor in light airs) the fumes tend to 'hang around' at deck level more than a raised exhaust system.

 

[Anixtu]

Sorry I have to object to this statement as it is based on assumption. Teekay would know conisderably less than LR, or any other top range member of IACS, about condition surveys of Merchant vessels. They are a vessel operator, not an inspection/certification specialist. I suspect the selection was more to do with the deire for an indpendent third party and Teekay's operation of the MT Delos for DMO.

I am not sure you are objecting to something that I actually wrote.

I'm sure Teekay's involvement in the purchase of Delos is part of the reason they were used, but why would the RAN use them at all, and desire an "independent third party", when they could have conducted the inspection themselves? Commercial and merchant sector knowledge and experience is one reason I can think of. What others do you suggest?

Edit: on reviewing your earlier input, are you considering the first two parties to be the RAN and the Australian Treasury, to which Teekay is the third? I had assumed UK MoD DSA to be the second party.

 

[alexsa]

I
Edit: on reviewing your earlier input, are you considering the first two parties to be the RAN and the Australian Treasury, to which Teekay is the third? I had assumed UK MoD DSA to be the second party.

Actually the three parties I was referring to were the Australian defence organisation in its entirity, Class and Teekay.

My objection is based on the fact you assumed the initial comment that prompted your response was based on a lack of awareness of the commercial survey and certification requirements.

 

[riksavage]

First rule of journalism and politics (and sailors ). Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story. IMHO that is part of the reason why NZDF lost the ACF in 2002.

In this months UK Navy news (free on-line), theres a pretty good phot (page 10) of a Collins class (in the background) and four ANZAC Frigates in Singapore for the five powers training exercise. Clearly all the subs are not US.

 

[StevoJH]

The Collins class Sub apparrently had some sort of defect and was withdrawn from the exercise.

 

[Kirkzzy]

The Collins class Sub apparrently had some sort of defect and was withdrawn from the exercise.

Funny, I read that on The Australian.

 

[Anixtu]

Can you explain what you see as the relationship between ADO, LR and Teekay with respect to Largs Bay? I am confused but intrigued.

The prompt for my response was more to do with a common lack of awareness of what the RFA is and how it operates. Whilst you may be familiar with it, I'm not sure that the other contributors to this board are. It is generally a rather obscure topic.

 

[OpinionNoted]

Defence to buy $3bn Seahawk choppers
AAP June 16, 2011, 11:36 am



Australia is to buy 24 Lockheed Martin Seahawk combat helicopters at a cost of more than $3 billion, the government says.

The Seahawk, known as Romeo, was chosen in preference to the European designed NH90 NFH.

Defence Minister Stephen Smith said the American helicopters would fill a role now performed by ageing Seahawk helicopters.

"We very strongly believe it is value for money," Mr Smith told reporters in Canberra.
"This has been through a competitive process - the competitor was Australian Aerospace with the NATO (NH90 NFH) helicopter, but we have decided to choose the 24 Romeo Seahawks."

 

[StingrayOZ]

Yay operational helicopters!

$3 billion seems expensive.. Is this one of these asset+ fuel + spares + training + crewing + facilities costs?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Yay operational helicopters!

$3 billion seems expensive.. Is this one of these asset+ fuel + spares + training + crewing + facilities costs?

Its a good result.

The FMS package includes 10 years of sustainment as part of the US Navy fleet which includes spares and higher level maintenance costs. This alone was valued at USD 1.6 billion. Plus 200 Mk 54 torpedos (USD 169 million) and the actual helicopters (24) and engines (60) plus operating equipment (USD 2.1 billion). So it comes to around AUD 3.7 billion. And this is without anti surface weapons (Hellfire). But will be offset by a lot of the current Seahawk operating costs (maintenance) that will be included in the TLS package.

 

[the road runner]

Romeos for the RAN.So the ADF will NOT be reducing airframes it seems.Would this decision be a warning to Eurocopter? may be get your kit together or we will choose Blackhawks/Seahawks?

The choice of the Romeos would enhance the inter operations of the USA and Australia,im wondering if this point was a winning point for the tender.?

 

[ADMk2]

Romeos for the RAN.So the ADF will NOT be reducing airframes it seems.Would this decision be a warning to Eurocopter? may be get your kit together or we will choose Blackhawks/Seahawks?

The ADF is still rationalising it's helo fleet. Our helo fleet was - Blackhawk, Seahawk, Seaking, Iroquois, Chinook and Kiowa. On top of that we were going to add Super Sea Sprite and now Tiger (only a partial replacement of Kiowa and Iroquois - Busranger gunships). We also lease A109E Power helos and operate a few EC-635 light training helos whilst the Tigers and MRH-90's are brought up to scratch.

Now we will have:

MRH-90, MH-60R, Chinook, Tiger and the new training helicopter (not yet announced).

The AIR-9000 project plan was to rationalise ADF's helo fleet to 4 or 5 helo types, so the plan has still been achieved.

The choice of the Romeos would enhance the inter operations of the USA and Australia,im wondering if this point was a winning point for the tender.?

Undoubtedly, plus the capability of the Romeo itself and the Sikorsky offset plan to re-manufacture the existing Blackhawk/Seahawk fleet (50 odd helicopters) and offer them for sale on the second-hand helo market...

 

[StevoJH]

As much as I initially liked the MRH-90 (lets face it, all new aircraft have problems), this was a good choice.

It give continuity with the current fleet of Seahawks. In addition, werent there questions over whether the NFH-90 would fit in the hanger of our frigates? Or was that a different helicopter? Will the current helicopters be retained and upgraded, or will they be retired when the 60R's arrive?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Will the current helicopters be retained and upgraded, or will they be retired when the 60R's arrive?

The S-70B-2s will be withdrawn from service. They are 20 years old already and the MH-60Rs won't be arriving for a few years. The Seahawk to Seahawk transition will be much easier for the RAN even without the assistance of the US Navy. Be interesting to see what the package is for air to surface missiles. It only cost us USD 25 million for 500 AGM-114K Hellfires for the Tiger ARH. But I would assume the Navy would want the AGM-114M with HE warhead or the AGM-114N with MAC warhead.

Also of interest is what will happen with the Seahawk's acoustic processors. These have been fitted to frigates before that hand deploy sonorbuoys over the side for improved ASW coverage. If the system can be maintained then there will be quite a few of them on RAN stocks. Could be an easy way to boost the new SEA 1180 ship's ASW capability...

 

[ADMk2]

As much as I initially liked the MRH-90 (lets face it, all new aircraft have problems), this was a good choice.

It give continuity with the current fleet of Seahawks. In addition, werent there questions over whether the NFH-90 would fit in the hanger of our frigates? Or was that a different helicopter? Will the current helicopters be retained and upgraded, or will they be retired when the 60R's arrive?

From my previous post:

Undoubtedly, plus the capability of the Romeo itself and the Sikorsky offset plan to re-manufacture the existing Blackhawk/Seahawk fleet (50 odd helicopters) and offer them for sale on the second-hand helo market...

Here's the Team Romeo announcement of this plan:

Team Romeo | MH-60R

 

[John Newman]

As much as I initially liked the MRH-90 (lets face it, all new aircraft have problems), this was a good choice.

It give continuity with the current fleet of Seahawks. In addition, werent there questions over whether the NFH-90 would fit in the hanger of our frigates? Or was that a different helicopter? Will the current helicopters be retained and upgraded, or will they be retired when the 60R's arrive?

Would be interesting to see what would have been selected "if" the MRH-90's hadn't had all the problems it has being introduced into service.

In regard to the existing Seahawks, I remember reading a while back, may have been Australian Aviation or similar, one of the "sweetners" to win the contract that Team Romeo was offering was to refurbish and "de-militarize" both the Seahawks and the Blackhawks (when the MRH-90's eventually replace them).

The reported plan was to the "on-sell' them to various "para-military" forces where there is a demand for that type of helicopter.

And the goverment would receive a "share" of the profits, not sure if the plan was to do the work here or in the US, probably in the US.

So I wonder if that is part of the deal or not.

(I don't think Karman has sold any of the returned Seasprites yet? The government is supposed to get a return on that, probably won't be much if it every happens!)

 

[John Newman]

The S-70B-2s will be withdrawn from service. They are 20 years old already and the MH-60Rs won't be arriving for a few years. The Seahawk to Seahawk transition will be much easier for the RAN even without the assistance of the US Navy. Be interesting to see what the package is for air to surface missiles. It only cost us USD 25 million for 500 AGM-114K Hellfires for the Tiger ARH. But I would assume the Navy would want the AGM-114M with HE warhead or the AGM-114N with MAC warhead.

When the Navy order the Seasprites, didn't they also order a stock of the much longer range Penguin missiles too?

I know that earlier versions of the Seahawk in US Navy service could carry and launch them, I think its only one missile that can be carried?

Are the MH-60R's also capable of carrying them too?

 

[ADMk2]

When the Navy order the Seasprites, didn't they also order a stock of the much longer range Penguin missiles too?

I know that earlier versions of the Seahawk in US Navy service could carry and launch them, I think its only one missile that can be carried?

Are the MH-60R's also capable of carrying them too?

We did buy Penguin ASM's but I believe we sold them when the decision was made to not proceed with the Super SeaSprites.

I don't believe the Penguin has been integrated onto the latest variant. It was used years ago, but the Hellfire variants are the only missiles the MH-60R's operate at this time, AFAIK.