The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Troothsayer]

Now I have been out of the loop for some months

8 months! Where have you been? It's 2011 btw
You know the financial position of the UK right? 11% budget defecit, approaching 1 trillion debt. Defence budget with a 38bn blackhole etc etc... so why the shock? The cuts could actually have been a hell of a lot worse. Defence actually got an 8% cut instead of 33% cuts some other government depts had to put up with.

Defence spending actually rose as a priority in the governments spending due to this.

a number of frigates that really look like they are close to "best before date" to soldier on to 2020?

Er, Type 23's are nowhere near 'best before date' - the lasts OSD is 2036 not 2020!

Cut's in the amphibious force. Either the ocean or the other illustrious has to go.

Illustrious was due out of service in 2014 anyway and will soldier on till Ocean comes out of refit.

QE maybe not a strike carrier, but a helicopter carrier!

That's not true, bad journalism. As for government 'would have cancelled them if they could ' that's only true of the 2nd carrier because the SDSR only calls for one.

It's a disaster!

But the result of MoD constantly burying its head in the sand. I think the equation for the MoD was pretty clear. Either give up future projects (F35, Type 26,CVF,Astute,FRES) and keep current equipment OR cut some of the older current equipment to be able to fund future projects. As simple as that in reality.

Whilst not underestimating the 'jam tomorrow' risk, I think they made the right choice.

There will be more cuts along the way to 2020 too btw, don't be that shocked to see further RFA ships, perhaps another Bay go. They are far from finished balancing the books.

 

[Palnatoke]

8 months! Where have you been? It's 2011 btw

I am only a "Defense Enthusiast", so lot's of work have kept me from being up-to-date with the RN.

You know the financial position of the UK right?

11% budget defecit, approaching 1 trillion debt. Defence budget with a 38bn blackhole etc etc... so why the shock?

I know, I also knew the headline figures, just didn't realize how bloody it would look.

The cuts could actually have been a hell of a lot worse. Defence actually got an 8% cut instead of 33% cuts some other government depts had to put up with.

Well, I would have raised tax, but then again I am not english.

Er, Type 23's are nowhere near 'best before date' - the lasts OSD is 2036 not 2020!

Well, closing at 25 years isn't exactly a young girl in her prime, if she's a ship - or am I mistaken?

Illustrious was due out of service in 2014 anyway and will soldier on till Ocean comes out of refit.

I think there was a call for either Ill or Ocean to be decomissioned, now, depending on usability.

That's not true, bad journalism. As for government 'would have cancelled them if they could ' that's only true of the 2nd carrier because the SDSR only calls for one.

Well with one ship, let's hope that you don't need it when it is in refit. As I understand it, the carrier fighters are not expected anytime soon (2020???) and the ship will be finished around 2014?, so you will have a QE without fixed winged aircrafts.

But the result of MoD constantly burying its head in the sand. I think the equation for the MoD was pretty clear. Either give up future projects (F35, Type 26,CVF,Astute,FRES) and keep current equipment OR cut some of the older current equipment to be able to fund future projects. As simple as that in reality.
Whilst not underestimating the 'jam tomorrow' risk, I think they made the right choice.

Yeah, probably given the circumstances -I can't judge it.
Though the thing is why has the UK ended up in this situation. It's fair enough to develop a budget problem, but cutting perfectly fine ships, systems and projects with, I fear, far reaching consequvences for the future of the RN seems hastly, short sighted and in truth the money saved can't make a big dent in the budgetting problems of the UK, which has to do with a lot else than millitary spending if I am not much mistaken.

There will be more cuts along the way to 2020 too btw, don't be that shocked to see further RFA ships, perhaps another Bay go. They are far from finished balancing the books

Let's hope for the best.

 

[Palnatoke]

@Troothsayer

The October 2010 Strategic Defense Review stated that "We will need to operate only one aircraft carrier. We cannot now foresee circumstances in which the UK would require the scale of strike capability previously planned. We are unlikely to face adversaries in large-scale air combat. We are far more likely to engage in precision operations, which may need to overcome sophisticated air defence capabilities. The single carrier will therefore routinely have 12 fast jets embarked for operations while retaining the capacity to deploy up to the 36 previously planned, providing combat and intelligence capability much greater than the existing Harriers. It will be able to carry a wide range of helicopters, including up to 12 Chinook or Merlin transports and eight Apache attack helicopters. The precise mix of aircraft will depend on the mission, allowing the carrier to support a broad range of operations including landing a Royal Marines Commando Group, or a Special Forces Squadron conducting a counterterrorism strike, assisting with humanitarian crises or the evacuation of UK nationals."

Doesn't exactly sound like the american-style super carrier that we dreamed off. Though that passage at least opens up for the possibility of a full compliment of F35s (though will the FAA have approx 40 ready F35 with pilots and all, standing ready?).

 

[Troothsayer]

Well, closing at 25 years isn't exactly a young girl in her prime, if she's a ship - or am I mistaken?

Well take the last 6 commissioned T23 - ISD are 1995 with the last being 2002. The 2087 equipped T23 is one of the finest frigates around.

The 'past their prime' bit is what I was disagreeing with. Consider that a lot of kit will be taken from T23 and used on T26.

I think there was a call for either Ill or Ocean to be decomissioned, now, depending on usability.

It may change again but I think that's on the backburner for now due to Libya.

As I understand it, the carrier fighters are not expected anytime soon (2020???) and the ship will be finished around 2014?, so you will have a QE without fixed winged aircrafts.

It has been set back 2 years to allow for a switch to CATOBAR from STOVL. It will be launched in 2016, sea trials for 3 years and in service 2019 at the exact time planned F35 purchases begin to arrive.

Though the thing is why has the UK ended up in this situation. It's fair enough to develop a budget problem, but cutting perfectly fine ships, systems and projects with, I fear, far reaching consequvences for the future of the RN seems hastly, short sighted and in truth the money saved can't make a big dent in the budgetting problems of the UK, which has to do with a lot else than millitary spending if I am not much mistaken.

Because the government has failed to fund defence and when they have the MoD have gold plated everything/changed specs etc.
Defence still has to play its part in defecit reduction not just that, Defence itself has a big overspend. We've been procuring equipment when the money has just not been there and it has built up over a good 10-15 year period.

Doesn't exactly sound like the american-style super carrier that we dreamed off. Though that passage at least opens up for the possibility of a full compliment of F35s (though will the FAA have approx 40 ready F35 with pilots and all, standing ready?).

Anyone with any intelligence would have known the RN would never run US Style supercarriers for quite a while now. 12 permanent F35 with a surge to 36 is still a capability the RN will not have had since 1978.

 

[riksavage]

Now I have been out of the loop for some months, I had heard that the UK millitary was being cut, but reading through this "SDSR" and other cuts, I am nothing less than shoked!
I know, you guys know everything about it, but I have to air my distress:

No carrier strike group for about 10 years?

6 modern Type 45,
a number of frigates that really look like they are close to "best before date" to soldier on to 2020?

Cut's in the amphibious force. Either the ocean or the other illustrious has to go.

Plans for new surface combattans, 13, but that remains to be seen out in distant 2020.

QE maybe not a strike carrier, but a helicopter carrier!
Apparently the UK goverment has made it clear that the only reason why QE&POW isn't cancelled is due to high cancelation costs - sounds like two orfaned ships to me....

F35s what's the status?. Extreamly expensive new planes in the face of dire cuts? Suddenly, I have my doubts....

In 10 years time they will say: "Well, we did without carrier strike groups for 10 years, apparently we don't need a carrier strike force and then we don't need F35s for the carriers - and do the the RAF need them badly? probably not, after all they got the Typhoon which is also an airplane, and then we don't have to buy those expensive F35s at all, a huge save in the face of a continous budget crisis; So one aircraft for the RAF; The Typhoon and helicopters for the navy".
There will be no Falklands to remind the politicians why carriers have decided just about all major naval actions since and including WW2....

The army cutting its ChallengerII to "less than 200" - for comparison, midget Denmark has 50 LEOII...
Less self propelled artillery.

Well, I acknowledge that 60000t carriers and fancy stuff is not to all that much use in Afgh. On the other hand tomorrows Milosevic, Saddam H. or Ghaddafi aren't going to be impressed by light troops in mine resistant vehicles!

It's a disaster! - not only for the UK.

You are taking a very simplistic view, you can't look at the RN in isolation, you have to look at the UK's overall military capabilities (land, sea, air, intelligence etc).

The UK has been engaged in continuous operations since GWI at various levels of intensity, this has to be paid for and equipment introduced to fight the here and now.

The RN though smaller in size still packs a formidable punch (remember the cold war is over). It will be the only country in Europe with six modern dedicated air-warfare destroyers, which I seriously doubt will EVER fire their missiles in anger. The T23 (upgraded with CAMM & Artisan) will remain a top end AsW capable asset until the T26 arrives, the new Astute class SSN's remain in a class of their own (bar what's available in the US). 3 Commando Brigade still takes part in global fly the flag deployments (some East of Suez) ranging from Norway arctic circle deployments, Kenyan hot and high training to Malaysian jungle training whilst still maintaining a battleground on active service.

When you bemoan the demise of the RN who are you comparing them to in Western Europe? Which other European nation has as many forces committed on active service, still conducts exercises on a global scale and has re-equipped it's force in Afghanistan from the ground up in ten years?

The UK military has to deliver a broad range of capabilities in support of government policy within the confines of a defined budget. Funds in the 21st Century have to be spread thinner to deal with a broader range of threats which didn't exist 10-15 years ago (cyber being the latest focus of attention). So it's not just about hull numbers, if it were we should be worshiping North Korea.

Buying shiny new bits of kit is one thing, keeping your units at peak condition is another. People look at the UK's military budget and wonder where has all the money gone? Unfortunately most forget the budget has to fund man-power costs (quarter of the annual budget) and high intensity training programmes (many live). If you keep you manpower in barracks shouting bang at one another then you have more money to spend on new toys, the UK doesn't take that attitude and instead invests heavily in ensuring it's manpower is ready for all contingencies in all conditions, which drains funds.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Once the QE's arrive the UK will get rid of everything (amphib wise) bar a couple of Bays and two Albions (a second Bay sold to Aus).

not a snowflakes chance in hell that this will happen

 

[Palnatoke]

@riksavage

The RN though smaller in size still packs a formidable punch

In relation to other navies and taking the size of britain into account: No, it doesn't.

The T23 (upgraded with CAMM & Artisan) will remain a top end AsW capable asset until the T26 arrives

Well that's a 25 year old ship designed in the mid 80ties.
Not exactly the common perception of the backbone of a powerfull and important navy.
(not a bad word about the ship, designing a ship to last, is, in my oppinion, an engineering feat - though this ship is hardly upto pace with modern ASWs, and that is not going to improve in the course of the next 10 years)

When you bemoan the demise of the RN who are you comparing them to in Western Europe?

The french navy comes into mind. It's a phoony argument to compare britain with Norway, Denmark or Luxembourg.
You could compare to itally or Spain, though Britain used to have higher ambitions, after all Britain got a seat in the UNSC and has a status of "great power".

People look at the UK's military budget and wonder where has all the money gone?

That's probably right....

Unfortunately most forget the budget has to fund man-power costs (quarter of the annual budget) and high intensity training programmes (many live). If you keep you manpower in barracks shouting bang at one another then you have more money to spend on new toys, the UK doesn't take that attitude and instead invests heavily in ensuring it's manpower is ready for all contingencies in all conditions, which drains funds.

That's true for all millitaries that the UK should compare with.

 

[kev 99]

Well that's a 25 year old ship designed in the mid 80ties.
Not exactly the common perception of the backbone of a powerfull and important navy.
(not a bad word about the ship, designing a ship to last, is, in my oppinion, an engineering feat - though this ship is hardly upto pace with modern ASWs, and that is not going to improve in the course of the next 10 years)

Really? What doesn't it compare well with exactly?

 

[Palnatoke]

Really? What doesn't it compare well with exactly?

So you are saying that in 25 years ASWs havn't improved, beyound what can be retro fitted?

But f.ex. The five new norwegian Nansen class ASW ships strikes me as far more cabable ships. Also the french-Italian ASW versions of FREEM, who are now in production could be quessed as far more cabable. After all with technology it is usually so, that "newer is much better".

 

[kev 99]

So you are saying that in 25 years ASWs havn't improved, beyound what can be retro fitted?

But f.ex. The five new norwegian Nansen class ASW ships strikes me as far more cabable ships. Also the french-Italian ASW versions of FREEM, who are now in production could be quessed as far more cabable. After all with technology it is usually so, that "newer is much better".

For ASW all you really need is a quiet ship with decent sensors, they're aren't any quieter ships in Nato and the sensors have been upgraded, not only that but the TAS from the upgraded T23 is going to be handed down to the T26.

To say the Nansen is better than the T23 is a bit daft unless you've got inside knowledge that it's Captas MK II V1 active/passive towed sonar is better than the Thales 2087 that a T23 is equipped with, likewise you could say the same for whatever TAS the FREMM will be equipped with.

 

[Palnatoke]

For ASW all you really need is a quiet ship with decent sensors, they're aren't any quieter ships in Nato and the sensors have been upgraded, not only that but the TAS from the upgraded T23 is going to be handed down to the T26.

To say the Nansen is better than the T23 is a bit daft unless you've got inside knowledge that it's Captas MK II V1 active/passive towed sonar is better than the Thales 2087 that a T23 is equipped with.

Since we don't have inside knowledge, let's turn it around;

The norwegians must be stupid, they have spendt considerable ressources (more than 20bn Nkr) on their five new ASWs. When it turns out that they could might as well have builded a ship as they did 25 years ago and strapped on a new TAS, some new electronics etc. ?

they're aren't any quieter ships in Nato

Link?

 

[Bonza]

You're coming bloody close to trolling, Palnatoke. "The Norwegians must be stupid"? What the hell is that? As if there couldn't possibly be any explanation besides something that NOBODY said because it's obviously absurd?

Your use of oversimplification and conjecture isn't fooling anyone and if you want to continue along your present course simply for the sake of starting disagreements, then you're not going to be doing it here.

This is your one and only warning, and it's not up for discussion. Fix your attitude.

 

[Palnatoke]

You're coming bloody close to trolling, Palnatoke. "The Norwegians must be stupid"? What the hell is that? As if there couldn't possibly be any explanation besides something that NOBODY said because it's obviously absurd?

Your use of oversimplification and conjecture isn't fooling anyone and if you want to continue along your present course simply for the sake of starting disagreements, then you're not going to be doing it here.

This is your one and only warning, and it's not up for discussion. Fix your attitude.

excuse me: People are posting completely unsubstanciated and unfounded personal oppinions as facts, and when one tries to critize the none-existing arguments, by common logic such as "in the last 25 years, maybe skills&tech has improved?" or "If the old ships are better, why do they then buy new ones?"
I get censored???

 

[Bonza]

Oh, don't put on the innocent injured party pantomime with me. Perhaps the part where I said it wasn't up for discussion wasn't clear. But go on, keep arguing the point. See where it gets you.

 

[Palnatoke]

Oh, don't put on the innocent injured party pantomime with me. Perhaps the part where I said it wasn't up for discussion wasn't clear. But go on, keep arguing the point. See where it gets you.

I am not putting "the injured party pantomine on".

I am wondering why it is, that one can't ask people to substanciate their oppinions with arguments?

My interets is actually not trolling, but learning something new. Like when Troothsayer told me that around 6 of these ships aren't old.

 

[Bonza]

People can ask whatever they wish, but when they display blatant double standards (you insisting that people need to substantiate their own opinions while holding yourself to no such rules when you start making assertions on the merits of RN vessels) and when they put words in people's mouths for the sake of arguments (trying to equate someone else's point about the Type 23 to saying "well then clearly the Norwegians must be stupid), and when they intentionally oversimplify an issue like ASW to platform-centric debates on what ship is newer and thus better when there are a host of other factors at play that should be obvious such as experience, doctrine, supporting assets, differing requirements etc, then yes, I take it as trolling.

If you want to call it censoring, then fine. But there is a way to conduct a mature discussion, and the above points do not feature in it. I feel like I'm talking to a child if I have to explain to you what's wrong with your behaviour.

As it stands, twice I told you it wasn't up for discussion, but you persist, so now you're going on holiday. In your time away I would give some thought to what I said above because I'm actually quite serious.

 

[kev 99]

Since we don't have inside knowledge, let's turn it around;

The norwegians must be stupid, they have spendt considerable ressources (more than 20bn Nkr) on their five new ASWs. When it turns out that they could might as well have builded a ship as they did 25 years ago and strapped on a new TAS, some new electronics etc. ?

What a ridiculous thing to say, technology moves forward, making something exactly the same as they did 25 years ago would be utterly pointless, there are all sorts of pieces of new technology that would be incorporated which don't affect the ASW function at all; such as newer more efficient power plants that use less fuel and require less maintenance and a newer SAM system. But the principles that drive how good a ship is at ASW still remain, it needs to be quiet, it needs a decent hull mounted sonar and TAS plus a helicopter, unless these components on a Nansen are better than those in a t23 then it cannot be better at ASW.

Also its considered pretty bad form to put words into people's mouth's, I never said the Norweigens were stupid and I'll thank you not to imply that's what I meant.

By the way the figure you quoted might sound pretty high but remember this ship comes equipped with mini Aegis so it's hardly surprising.

Link?

Doesn't exist and you know it, if it pleases you I'll amend the comment to "Probably the quietest ASW escort in Nato" but I'm reasonably confident about it's accuracy. If you read up about the Type 23s development you will read lots about it receiving extensive quieting measures beyond those employed by similar vessels in other navies, after all it was developed to counter the vast Soviet sub fleet and that threat has since disappeared.

Edit - I didn't know that Bonza had banned you before I wrote this and it's a fair comment from Bonza that you started with the unsubstantiated comments.

 

[StobieWan]

:Applause:

Cheers for that, it's frustrating to watch this sort of exchange going on and it was certainly bordering on trolling..

Ian

 

[kev 99]

BAE have Dassualt have announced a joint programme for a MALE UAV called Telemos lets hope good sense prevails and a carrier capable version is built:

Dassault, BAE Systems to Spend €1 Billion on Drone - WSJ.com

 

[riksavage]

BAE have Dassualt have announced a joint programme for a MALE UAV called Telemos lets hope good sense prevails and a carrier capable version is built:

Dassault, BAE Systems to Spend €1 Billion on Drone - WSJ.com

Also a potential maritime surveillance platform I hope, and one which can also be deployed from a QE class.

UAV's are proving indispensable in the current asymmetrical environment and I doubt things are going to change moving forward. Having access to a long range surveillance platform capable of supporting your amphib forces would be great.

Five years does sound optimistic for an operational version to become a reality, but if true, just about right for trials aboard the QE first of class if they make that a requirement.