The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[StobieWan]

Statistically, your helicopter will be down for maintenance or tasked elsewhere when you need it for anti shipping. No arguments from me that it'd be the tool of choice, but like as not, it'll be sitting on the deck, in the hangar, in bits, or tooling away on an ASW mission or just cross decking some people when you get into a shooting exchange.

There's one thing worse than being in a toe to toe slugging match with an enemy frigate, and that's not being able to fire back when in a toe to toe slugging match with an enemy frigate...

I think there's definite scope for an intermediate missile of some sort, with a decent range, a two way data link and some sort of multi mode sensor that can do IR/Laser/TV plus a GPS/inertial guidance system, so that it can attack all sorts, be it a ship or a bunker, and ideally be of the size and cost to fit nicely into a A35 or thereabouts cell. Range, 50km or so, subsonic and low RCS. Not too much to ask Santa

Ian

 

[riksavage]

With the RN losing out to Army and RAF in the cuts battle due to the blinkered focus on land-locked Afghanistan, recent events in Libya and now Yemen must be a god send to the Admiralty.

With Ocean committed to Libya complete with Apache/Lynx/Seaking another task force is being sent to Yemen comprising a Bay Class, Fort Victoria and a Company of RM ready to execute a NEO. An RM contingent currently deployed to Albania is also on stand-by to respond at short notice.

If we are not careful we could end up being deployed on three operational fronts - Libya, Afghanistan and Yemen. The UK combined service chiefs might one day be better off using the NO word in response to FCO/Government requests instead of trying to pull rabbits out of hats post cuts. By saying no every once in a while they might actually convince the politicians that cuts must stop.

Fox has also been busy pushing the T26 to Malaysia, maybe he should re-brand it as the 'Commonwealth Frigate' and extend his sales pitch to include Canada?

 

[spoz]

vbombv

I don't know the answers.

?

And those that do know won't be posting the information here. You're getting into a very sensitive area for all AAW system/ship combinations; it's an area which tends to be modelled extensively with the results being held close.

 

[Repulse]

Statistically, your helicopter will be down for maintenance or tasked elsewhere when you need it for anti shipping. No arguments from me that it'd be the tool of choice, but like as not, it'll be sitting on the deck, in the hangar, in bits, or tooling away on an ASW mission or just cross decking some people when you get into a shooting exchange.

There's one thing worse than being in a toe to toe slugging match with an enemy frigate, and that's not being able to fire back when in a toe to toe slugging match with an enemy frigate...

You make a very valid point about the availability of helicopters. Seems that the RN are becoming unceasingly reliant on them for offensive punch above and below water. They should be looking at the T26 design and thinking about getting space for two helicopters in the hanger (probably removing the dog kennel UAV hanger).

Repeating earlier posts, the RN should be looking at specialist ammo for guns. Reading the stats on some of the existing platforms a rate of fire of 40 to 60 roundd per minute is common. Imagine a couple of guns firing say 100 shells at a single target in a minute; not aware of a CIWS that could handle all that... Plus one thing that we tend to forget when designing new ships is that speed and manoeuvrability are also key to defence (and the ability to run and fight another day )

 

[vbombv]

vbombv

I don't know the answers.

Though I would say that a modern missile represents a serious threat to any surface ship in a real situation:
Months at sea, the weather is bad, men are tired and then suddenly an echo on the screen and an alarm - is it a friendly helicopter or a missile? one minute later the thing is very close...
Certainly there are procedures for all situations, but...
As far as I know, neither Sheffield nor Stark ever saw what hit'em, much has happened since, but the time from detection to impact/defeat has to be a crucial parameter. And at what ranges can you detect a sea skimmer? 20 km? or more?

I do hope that they could be dedected further out with modern systems. Would be intresting to know how many SAMs we could get off in that 20km. I agree that fatigue and training would be a major role.

 

[vbombv]

Statistically, your helicopter will be down for maintenance or tasked elsewhere when you need it for anti shipping. No arguments from me that it'd be the tool of choice, but like as not, it'll be sitting on the deck, in the hangar, in bits, or tooling away on an ASW mission or just cross decking some people when you get into a shooting exchange.

There's one thing worse than being in a toe to toe slugging match with an enemy frigate, and that's not being able to fire back when in a toe to toe slugging match with an enemy frigate...

I think there's definite scope for an intermediate missile of some sort, with a decent range, a two way data link and some sort of multi mode sensor that can do IR/Laser/TV plus a GPS/inertial guidance system, so that it can attack all sorts, be it a ship or a bunker, and ideally be of the size and cost to fit nicely into a A35 or thereabouts cell. Range, 50km or so, subsonic and low RCS. Not too much to ask Santa

Ian

The perfect Gerneral Purpose weapon. Only thing is that the development will take the cost of a couple of t26s

This slugging match is what worries me especially on a 1 on 1 exchange. Rather than the Harpoons, would it not be better to invest on the AsuW capabilities of our air defence weapons and add another couple of SAM batteries in there that could take care of an air threat as well as the surface one? According to WIKI the Astor 15/30 have ranges of 30/120km so that would be enticing. Probably not possable though without lots of €€€

 

[vbombv]

And those that do know won't be posting the information here. You're getting into a very sensitive area for all AAW system/ship combinations; it's an area which tends to be modelled extensively with the results being held close.

I suppose the effectveness of both the offensive and defensive weapons under combat situations won´t be known until the next major naval conflict...

 

[kev 99]

Statistically, your helicopter will be down for maintenance or tasked elsewhere when you need it for anti shipping. No arguments from me that it'd be the tool of choice, but like as not, it'll be sitting on the deck, in the hangar, in bits, or tooling away on an ASW mission or just cross decking some people when you get into a shooting exchange.

There's one thing worse than being in a toe to toe slugging match with an enemy frigate, and that's not being able to fire back when in a toe to toe slugging match with an enemy frigate...

I think there's definite scope for an intermediate missile of some sort, with a decent range, a two way data link and some sort of multi mode sensor that can do IR/Laser/TV plus a GPS/inertial guidance system, so that it can attack all sorts, be it a ship or a bunker, and ideally be of the size and cost to fit nicely into a A35 or thereabouts cell. Range, 50km or so, subsonic and low RCS. Not too much to ask Santa

Ian

Well if we were looking at an anti ship missile to replace Harpoon I'd have a look at the Naval Strike Missile, it's a bit bigger than you want but still smaller than the Harpoon, seems to have most of what you want it to do at bigger range, shame it doesn't come in a vls version though.

 

[StobieWan]

Well if we were looking at an anti ship missile to replace Harpoon I'd have a look at the Naval Strike Missile, it's a bit bigger than you want but still smaller than the Harpoon, seems to have most of what you want it to do at bigger range, shame it doesn't come in a vls version though.

I'm looking for something intermediate on the basis it'd be lighter and smaller, needs less punch but is multipurpose.

NLOS seemed to have some of the stuff involved but it's been cancelled. Hrmm..


Ian

 

[Bonza]

I still think guided, possibly range-assisted 4.5-5 inch gun rounds would do the job you're after, or at least most of it. Besides that, maybe some flexible space onboard the vessel for larger weapons should they prove necessary (but capable of being used for other systems depending on circumstance).

 

[StingrayOZ]

Whats wrong with harpoon?

Australia's shiny new AWD will have 8 harpoons installed along with the 48 VLS cells worth of quad packed ESSM and SM-2.

Harpoon is quite a solid device, with heavy hitting power, can have land attack capability, and can usually be cued with out fancy ship board sensors. being located apart from the main VLS area, any damage to that area means that you can still fire harpoon.

 

[riksavage]

I still think guided, possibly range-assisted 4.5-5 inch gun rounds would do the job you're after, or at least most of it. Besides that, maybe some flexible space onboard the vessel for larger weapons should they prove necessary (but capable of being used for other systems depending on circumstance).

Here's hoping along with Wildcat the RN will invest in a rotary UCAV like fire scout for the dog kennel. Being able to send an unmanned platform armed with a SeaScua sized missile would provide a back-up should the manned aircraft be down for maintenance. Plus it would provide top-cover for any anti-piracy initiatives. This could be complimented by a guided munition for the primary gun (127mm)

If it comes to a full-on shooting war between fleets then the RN can hopefully rely on the SSN's and F35C's to deliver longer range anti-ship munitions.

Recent events in Libya and now Yemen reinforces the need for a versatile base-level combatant capable or self-defense/power projection with the added ability to host a sizable contingent of embarked military or distressed civvies - post evacuation. We are more likely to see a military assisted evacuation, failed state intervention, anti-piracy, medical support and natural disaster response tasks than a full-on shooting war against enemy submarines and high-end surface combatants. Keep the option of a plug and play AsW, MCM and maybe even a soft launch anti-ship missile capable or being hosted in a CAMM launcher.

Once the QE's arrive the UK will get rid of everything (amphib wise) bar a couple of Bays and two Albions (a second Bay sold to Aus). Small scale humanitarian interventions (say Company level group + couple of helo's) will have to be hosted from a T45 or T26 because of a lack of larger vessels available for immediate deployment.

 

[StobieWan]

I still think guided, possibly range-assisted 4.5-5 inch gun rounds would do the job you're after, or at least most of it. Besides that, maybe some flexible space onboard the vessel for larger weapons should they prove necessary (but capable of being used for other systems depending on circumstance).

Yep - Vulcano would do the trick in the main I'm sure. If it's a resilient target, just shoot it some more


Ian

 

[Repulse]

Interestingly, the RN has a company of RMs off Yemen at the moment on RFA Victoria. I see that the RN should be looking at Joint Support Ships in the future. I also wish that the Albions had hangers...

 

[vbombv]

Whats wrong with harpoon?

Australia's shiny new AWD will have 8 harpoons installed along with the 48 VLS cells worth of quad packed ESSM and SM-2.

Harpoon is quite a solid device, with heavy hitting power, can have land attack capability, and can usually be cued with out fancy ship board sensors. being located apart from the main VLS area, any damage to that area means that you can still fire harpoon.

Checking the net it looks as if the Australian Harpoons were replaced for Block II and can hit 150miles away giving your vessels a head start in the "slugging match". If they dont get through the air defence of the target then you could just disengage.
I was under the impresion that the RN ones were at 65nm which is too close for comfort.

 

[Repulse]

Yep - Vulcano would do the trick in the main I'm sure. If it's a resilient target, just shoot it some more


Ian

Amen..

 

[Palnatoke]

Recent events in Libya and now Yemen reinforces the need for a versatile base-level combatant capable or self-defense/power projection with the added ability to host a sizable contingent of embarked military or distressed civvies - post evacuation. We are more likely to see a military assisted evacuation, failed state intervention, anti-piracy, medical support and natural disaster response tasks than a full-on shooting war against enemy submarines and high-end surface combatants. Keep the option of a plug and play AsW, MCM and maybe even a soft launch anti-ship missile capable or being hosted in a CAMM launcher.

I think that a likely scenario includes:
Land attack in surport of own troops (could f.ex. be peacekeepers caught up in fighting). That would include the need for a dense airdefense to protect the ships giving gun surport from land based ASMs.
Also the enemy might have modern or near-modern small attack subs. I am a lay man, but I suspect that the subs are a problem. If we have not inlisted the USN, it strikes me that few NATO countries have modern ASW in any great degree. A sailor who had served on the HDMS Absalon, said that while Abs weren't a sub hunter it still had a modern sonar but was still completely at the mercy of the german attack subs that they often trained against, since they could only detect them at a "few hundreds of meters".
Adding in those new SAM-missiles that apparently can be fired under water to attack a hovering chopper, I think that we might have a huge problem against a weapon system that's not all that expensive?

 

[Troothsayer]

Fox has also been busy pushing the T26 to Malaysia, maybe he should re-brand it as the 'Commonwealth Frigate' and extend his sales pitch to include Canada?

Haven't the Canadians already rebuffed that idea?

 

[StingrayOZ]

Checking the net it looks as if the Australian Harpoons were replaced for Block II and can hit 150miles away giving your vessels a head start in the "slugging match". If they dont get through the air defence of the target then you could just disengage.
I was under the impresion that the RN ones were at 65nm which is too close for comfort.

Okay, proberly worth upgrading. 65 nm is too close for comfort. Proberly worth while getting a few new block II's. So really its an issue being out of date than the concept of the weapon system. Harpoon can act as land attack or anti shipping. Could be quiet handy given the UK doesn't have ship loads of Tomahawks.

Does the UK have any aircraft that is able to airlaunch harpoons?

 

[kev 99]

Okay, proberly worth upgrading. 65 nm is too close for comfort. Proberly worth while getting a few new block II's. So really its an issue being out of date than the concept of the weapon system. Harpoon can act as land attack or anti shipping. Could be quiet handy given the UK doesn't have ship loads of Tomahawks.

Does the UK have any aircraft that is able to airlaunch harpoons?

Not since we bined the MR2s also all of our air launched ones time expired several years ago.