Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Palnatoke

Banned Member
With maritime fleets shrinking and projects becoming ever more expensive/complex I can't see an alternative solution unless you buy overseas and simply maintain at home.
Well, wouldn't buying overseas be the logical solution?

Advantages;
You get your stuff at the right price.

The possible counter-arguments I have heard:

"Independence":
Anyway, unless you are the USN, you are going to rely on foreign friends for key systems. A warship is not to much good if doesn't f.ex. have modern weapons or sensors - and hopefully few suggest that AUS undertakes her own missile projects or radar projects...

"The poor workers about to loose their jobs"
The absolutely worst thing you can do to avoid job loss is to artificially keep something alive that aren't worthwhile, it just works opposite (just look how the UK managed to transform it self from leading industrial power to very much not leading industrial power in about 50 years).


So, instead, get your stuff at the right price, learn to maintain and operate it independently - you are going to go to war with your enemy, not your friend...
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
Keep it simple and do like Abe suggested, look at how many ships you need and their estimated life of type and space the procurement accordingly. The other thing you need to do is allow enough time to plan, do your design and development and sort your first of class issues before entering series production. Do these two things and voila you have a sustainable ship building industry.
Well, as a father I would be more interested in being sure that my son had the right and enough equipment when the war comes (God forbid).
As a taxpayer I would be more interested in that equipment and enough of it was as cheap as possible.

If I owned a yard, I might be interested in the goverment "space the procurement accordingly" so that I can keep my inefficient business afloat and still take my "lear jet" to the annual casino party with my rich friends.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
....; and make sure you have dimension plans done and that your sub contractors understand them.... :)
Don't have subcontractors, have primarily mainenance yards on the east and west coasts that are capable of block work but keep all the difficult stuff at one yard. No real need to have seperate companies it just doesn't work on a market as small as ours.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
Don't have subcontractors, have primarily mainenance yards on the east and west coasts that are capable of block work but keep all the difficult stuff at one yard. No real need to have seperate companies it just doesn't work on a market as small as ours.
"seperate companies it just doesn't work on a market as small as ours"

The thing is that there aren't a market, since there is only one customer. The right thing to do in that unhealthy situation, is that the customer (the state) eliminates the transaction cost and simply buys his surpliers - that will be nationalize it.
(most people understand how bad that is, but it's better: Look at navartia and the italien one).

Anyway, the subcontractor has the virtue of flexibility. If you are subcontracting something out, you always have the oppertunity to cut the subcontractor when there is no more need/work (the subcontractor can maybe survive by selling to somebody else).
IF you have bought and integrated the subcontractor you might face a dilemma: You are loosing money, but of strategical reasons you need to maintain the capacity - Should you cut it before it drags you down?

As a general rule: Keeping stuff "inhouse" is good as long as you are expanding (you make money all the way through the value chain) if you are contracting, having subcontractors are best, since you can get rid of them easely.


Ofcourse everything is dependent on your ability to do your business. If you can't handle your subcontractors and/or can't handle your own operation (the case of most yards that only survives by having taxpayers money injected into them via defense projects - that'll be all major western yards expect some dutch and german ones) then ofcourse everything goes wrong, regardless.


Edit: "expect some dutch and german ones" Should have been "Dutch" ones, the german ones got huge subsidies in the 80ties and 90ties, though seems to have been able to make a business from that starting position - gained by cheating - I add)
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well, as a father I would be more interested in being sure that my son had the right and enough equipment when the war comes (God forbid).
As a taxpayer I would be more interested in that equipment and enough of it was as cheap as possible.

If I owned a yard, I might be interested in the goverment "space the procurement accordingly" so that I can keep my inefficient business afloat and still take my "lear jet" to the annual casino party with my rich friends.
The main inefficiency is the procurement model with every naval shipbuilding project, for the last couple of decades, being treated as a one off turn key job. Space out the work into sustainable packets and we will have a viable efficient industry rather than the current boom and bust situation where we attempt to replace most of the fleet in a single decade every three decades. Run a car company, or any manufacturing company, like that you will go bankrupt…..

South Korea for all intents and purposes didn't have a shipbuilding industry not all that long ago but now they are an international power house. How did they get where they are today? Vision, commitment, investment and patience; it didn't happen over night but they stuck at it and built a world beating industry from nothing.

Look at what they are doing with cars. Not so long ago they were crap but now they are better than most.

They are doing the same across the board and I have been involved in some of it. A South Korean company won a tender to produce an Australian industrial product and initially produced rubbish, they worked hard and got better. They asked advice and got us to help and are now out pacing a number of competitors. Next they will be the pace setters for that product type.

Now this is the question, if we dedicated the required effort and resources to rebuild, not build from nothing, our shipbuilding industry what is stopping us from doing as well as or better than South Korea?

In my opinion the only thing stopping us is political short sightedness, laziness and the ignorance of people who think we can’t do it and continue to not only focus on the negative but rewrite history to fit their twisted cultural cringe insisting that if we cant farm it or dig it up we can’t do it.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
South Korea for all intents and purposes didn't have a shipbuilding industry not all that long ago but now they are an international power house. How did they get where they are today? Vision, commitment, investment and patience; it didn't happen over night but they stuck at it and built a world beating industry from nothing.

.
But it is not open ended. The first Korean yard closures are now occuring as they relocate production to cheaper countries. Korean yards such as STX are now building in China using chinese labours as the cost structure make this cheaper. This means STX maintain their profit margin but at the cost of Korean labour. Not a huge issue if other industries can soak up the displaced resources but a real problem when demand drops noting their economy is export driven.

Chinese costs are also going up so watch Vietnam and the Phillipines. When Korea grabbed market share they had the advantage of great timing and government incentives to get themselves going and, at the same time, they were very cheap due to labour costs and series production. They currently still have a bit of an edge over China in qualtiy (which can be variable but is much better on average than China) and a bit of flexibility. You cannot understate the qualtiy issue and some FPSO projects have ahd to go to other countries to be completed which negates the cost advantage.

As an aside - China in equipment supply try to stipulate Chinese manufactured items and make import of some items a bit difficult. I suspect this will bit them in the long rujn as ship owners can be quite particular in this regard.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
The main inefficiency is the procurement model with every naval shipbuilding project, for the last couple of decades, being treated as a one off turn key job.
100% agree



Space out the work into sustainable packets and we will have a viable efficient industry rather than the current boom and bust situation where we attempt to replace most of the fleet in a single decade every three decades.
I agree with the observation, but the problem, imo, is that the state is trying to keep industry (yards in this case) alive by handling them work and taxpayers money.
When the state is not buying, the yards have no customers, because they are not competiative: Nobody wants to buy their products which are overpriced and/or inferior.

Run a car company, or any manufacturing company, like that you will go bankrupt…..
Yes certainly, but death to the car manufactor comes much earlier, namely when nobody wants to buy their inferior or overpriced products.


South Korea for all intents and purposes didn't have a shipbuilding industry not all that long ago but now they are an international power house. How did they get where they are today? Vision, commitment, investment and patience; it didn't happen over night but they stuck at it and built a world beating industry from nothing. Look at what they are doing with cars. Not so long ago they were crap but now they are better than most.
I add "comparative advantages". Being able to pay a yard worker 1/10 the hour of a western worker sure helps.
SK but a turbo booster on their yard industry by simply cheating (subsidies - nobody knows where Hyundai ends and the SK state begins.... ).


Now this is the question, if we dedicated the required effort and resources to rebuild, not build from nothing, our shipbuilding industry what is stopping us from doing as well as or better than South Korea?
Let me give you an example; Lindø (Denmark) was one of the last (if not the last) major privately owned western yards that competed openly and without subsidies on the market for large containerships. With a lot of investments and good will from it's owner (AP Møller group.) the yard managed to survive through the 90ties and into the10s but now its closing. Because while it more or less survived against the koreans, now the chineese are entering the market, and a skilled chineese yard worker is paid 1/20 of a danish yard worker - in a labour intensive industry that's a difference that you can't overcome by being a little bit smarter.

Simply because of our wage level we (rich countries) are shut out of that market (large, but simple ships), because we can't (or rather won't) compete with the much lower wage level in china/korea and other places.

What you can do, is to build complex or special ships. Because they are much more difficult to build you can survive or offset the wage-level difference, by working smart. Special tankers, ferries, warships etc. falls in this categori.

But this market is allready crowded, f.ex. the dutch, german and french are strong on this market, and it's difficult to enter.
After all, who in their right mind thinks they are better at nuts and bolts than a german? :)D)

So 1st world countries (those with high wage levels) that didn't create a foothold on the market for special ships, will find it very difficult to have a viable large scale commercial yard industry.

Can a large scale yard survive as viable without being on the commercial market? The simple answer is no, the volumne of the commercial market is much larger than the defense market and defense-only-yards will play in minor leaque, and thus become inefficient (look at the american (strongly protected) yards).
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
100% agree





I agree with the observation, but the problem, imo, is that the state is trying to keep industry (yards in this case) alive by handling them work and taxpayers money.
When the state is not buying, the yards have no customers, because they are not competiative: Nobody wants to buy their products which are overpriced and/or inferior.



Yes certainly, but death to the car manufactor comes much earlier, namely when nobody wants to buy their inferior or overpriced products.




I add "comparative advantages". Being able to pay a yard worker 1/10 the hour of a western worker sure helps.
SK but a turbo booster on their yard industry by simply cheating (subsidies - nobody knows where Hyundai ends and the SK state begins.... ).




Let me give you an example; Lindø (Denmark) was one of the last (if not the last) major privately owned western yards that competed openly and without subsidies on the market for large containerships. With a lot of investments and good will from it's owner (AP Møller group.) the yard managed to survive through the 90ties and into the10s but now its closing. Because while it more or less survived against the koreans, now the chineese are entering the market, and a skilled chineese yard worker is paid 1/20 of a danish yard worker - in a labour intensive industry that's a difference that you can't overcome by being a little bit smarter.

Simply because of our wage level we (rich countries) are shut out of that market (large, but simple ships), because we can't (or rather won't) compete with the much lower wage level in china/korea and other places.

What you can do, is to build complex or special ships. Because they are much more difficult to build you can survive or offset the wage-level difference, by working smart. Special tankers, ferries, warships etc. falls in this categori.

But this market is allready crowded, f.ex. the dutch, german and french are strong on this market, and it's difficult to enter.
After all, who in their right mind thinks they are better at nuts and bolts than a german? :)D)

So 1st world countries (those with high wage levels) that didn't create a foothold on the market for special ships, will find it very difficult to have a viable large scale commercial yard industry.

Can a large scale yard survive as viable without being on the commercial market? The simple answer is no, the volumne of the commercial market is much larger than the defense market and defense-only-yards will play in minor leaque, and thus become inefficient (look at the american (strongly protected) yards).
There is a need to look outside the square, look outside of shipbuilding. If you can build a ship or submarine hull you can build large pressure vessels, car dumpers, conveyor sections you name it.

If you want to build your own warships you should also build your own tankers etc, to keep the yard up to speed. The tanker will cost a lot more than it would if built in China but its value in skill retention and the subsequent savings on your next generation of surface combatants will make up the difference. Basically pay an extra $200 million on a tanker and save $500 million on your next frigate project you will be $300 million ahead. (rough figures plucked out of the air but you get the idea)
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
There is a need to look outside the square, look outside of shipbuilding. If you can build a ship or submarine hull you can build large pressure vessels, car dumpers, conveyor sections you name it.

If you want to build your own warships you should also build your own tankers etc, to keep the yard up to speed. The tanker will cost a lot more than it would if built in China but its value in skill retention and the subsequent savings on your next generation of surface combatants will make up the difference. Basically pay an extra $200 million on a tanker and save $500 million on your next frigate project you will be $300 million ahead. (rough figures plucked out of the air but you get the idea)
I don't see that.

What I do see is that you keep a yard living that grows more and more inefficient by the hour, because it's not subjected to competition and doesn't operate on a free market. It does not survive by virtue of it's products but rather by virtue of it's political connections.

As a state you get three things out of that deal:

First off all, your warships gets more expensive, which means that you get less ships/cababilities.

Second of all:
The yard workers at the inefficient, not worthwhile yard, COULD have worked and excelled in worthwhile industries and earned money which via tax ends in the state (which could have been used to build more warships).

Thirdly
You tax healthy industry in order to pay/subsidize unhealthy industries - rendering the healthy parts of the economy less healthy.

You know, there is a reason why USSR colapsed, and "spacing out procurement" sounds a lot like the problems of unequal number of left and right shoes in the good old USSR, if you ask me.....
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I don't see that.

What I do see is that you keep a yard living that grows more and more inefficient by the hour, because it's not subjected to competition and doesn't operate on a free market. It does not survive by virtue of it's products but rather by virtue of it's political connections.

As a state you get three things out of that deal:

First off all, your warships gets more expensive, which means that you get less ships/cababilities.

Second of all:
The yard workers at the inefficient, not worthwhile yard, COULD have worked and excelled in worthwhile industries and earned money which via tax ends in the state (which could have been used to build more warships).

Thirdly
You tax healthy industry in order to pay/subsidize unhealthy industries - rendering the healthy parts of the economy less healthy.

You know, there is a reason why USSR colapsed, and "spacing out procurement" sounds a lot like the problems of unequal number of left and right shoes in the good old USSR, if you ask me.....
I disagree.

Where do you think the mining industry get their experienced people from they don't train or retain when times are hard infact they lay off workers at the drop of a hat as we saw during the GFC. They poached from automotive and defence before the GFC and then again after. With out automotive and defence you have a much much smaller pool of properly trained and experienced engineers and trades.

There is a very real lack of comprehension of what a balanced economy provides. Without a decent sized manufacturing and defence sector we will never be able to fix our skills shortage. Without manufacturing our kids will be the dumb locals filling menial jobs while all the highly skilled high paying jobs go to already trained skilled migrants.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
I realize that defense is a special area, in which independence plays a significant role. BUT ordinarry decent countries like Australia or my own who are not planning on waging agressive war against the whole world should content themself with "dependent on friends".

Anyway we are dependent on friends all ready for most of our key systems. Danish tanks are made in germany, Australien tanks in the US and our airplanes er each made in the US etc.

We do not loose more independence by having our hulls made in Holland or Spain that we have all ready lost by importing the missiles from the US (in fact the missile deal is the thing that makes us very dependent because both of our countries are far from able to make an advanced AA missile, while we could hammer a hull togther).

Though things can get worring if we suddenly have to order our hulls from a possible enemy - not mentioning any names - so amoung friends we should have an industrial policy that safegaurded our millitary-industrial capacities in the circle of friends.

That means that I as a dane keep producing good bacon, which I sell to you, my australien friend and you sell one of your nice beefs to a german friend of ours, so that he can make a good tank for me.

If we decided that we each had to make our own bacon, beef and tanks, the dane will end up with too little good bacon, few bad beefs and few bad tanks.
The german will end up with too little and bad bacon, few and bad beefs and few good tanks
while the australien ends up with too little and bad bacon, few good beefs and few bad tanks.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
------------- OFF TOPIC---------------------

I disagree.

Where do you think the mining industry get their experienced people from they don't train or retain when times are hard infact they lay off workers at the drop of a hat as we saw during the GFC. They poached from automotive and defence before the GFC and then again after. With out automotive and defence you have a much much smaller pool of properly trained and experienced engineers and trades.

There is a very real lack of comprehension of what a balanced economy provides. Without a decent sized manufacturing and defence sector we will never be able to fix our skills shortage. Without manufacturing our kids will be the dumb locals filling menial jobs while all the highly skilled high paying jobs go to already trained skilled migrants.
I don't completely disagree with you. But one has to conform to reality. We can't produce goods that the competitor has overwhelming comparative advantages in producing.

An australien won't work for a dollar a day, therefore nike shoes aren't produced in Australia - because Nike has (imo, exploits) people in Bangladesh to produce to one dollar a day (and no problems with unions, vacations etc.).

We have to do stuff that we are relatively good at, and can sustain our hunger for more and more plastic and fat.

Germany is a fine example, in my dad's youth Germany made cars for the common man, today german cars are either luxurious or intended for the picky customer, for whom a few $1000 dollars is a little thing next to the right "fell" of the dash board. A poor worker that crew up in a paddy field don't know how a rich italien wants his dash board in his BMW, or how the light has to reflect in the wind shield, so BMW still got a business.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
To translate the above into defense relevant economy:

I hope we agree that nationalized defense industry is not a good idea

Let's imagine a group of friendly nations that chooses to work together.

A healthy defense industry needs, like any other industry, a functioning free market to operate on.
That means that there has to be many surpliers and many customers.

There is only one type of customer to weapons like fighters and warships, and that is states. So our market has to consist of many states, the more the better. It seems natural that the surpliers on this market are the weapon manufactors of the member states of the market.

Since it's a free market, it has to be fair. So f.ex. a member state can't stipulate that certain local companies has to win a given order - the order is won by the best offer - always.

When we have accomplished that, we have given our defense industry a free and functioning market to operate on, if this market is as large as "other" markets we can assume that our industry will stay fit and competiative relative to other markets.

When and if all nations of world are/become members of this defense market, the last war will have been fought.
 

jeffb

Member
I hope we agree that nationalized defense industry is not a good idea
I'm not quite sure how you've arrived at this point from the current AWD problems, Williamstown is run by BAE not the government.

If you looked at the current problems facing the Australian industry you could argue just the opposite, once a proper build schedule is worked out a nationalised industry to cover the base load of projects and the required skilled workforce is a very easy solution. There would still be plenty of room for commercial yards to compete with designs and additional work. It is also better then having too many shipyards competing for too little work.

The Australian defence industry already sources its designs & technology from a "circle of friends", the only real failing is making sure those designs are properly tailored for our industry and the skills required are maintained between projects.

Defence ship building is not a free market, commercial shipping is. I disagree with the points you're trying to make as they don't really fit Australia's circumstances.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Keep it simple and do like Abe suggested, look at how many ships you need and their estimated life of type and space the procurement accordingly. The other thing you need to do is allow enough time to plan, do your design and development and sort your first of class issues before entering series production. Do these two things and voila you have a sustainable ship building industry.
The area where I would be concerned, is that if a yard only did naval work, is that the yard workers would essentially be government employees. The issue I have with that, is that if the funding for operating the yard only comes from naval build programmes, changes in Government/government priorities (like a budget crisis) would have negative impacts upon continuity at the yard. A case in point from other defence build programmes is when Government made a platform production choice on what was most advantageous politically for the party in power at the time, instead of choosing the best piece of kit for defence. In point of fact, I suspect this political interference is at least partially to blame for why there are so many 'half-arsed' shipyards around Australia, instead of just one or two yards which can competently do all the work.

From the reading, it sounds as though the now-closed Cockatoo Island Dockyards at the time was in a position to do everything which needed doing for RAN naval construction, both in terms of facilities as well as having the skilled work force.

Now, I readily admit I do not know very much about the industries involved in naval or commercial shipping construction. Having said that, it sounds to me like it would like a good idea if there was a single facility or pair of facilities within Australia able to meet RAN naval construction needs, which also had sufficient space and capacity (if not the workforce) to also allow for work to be done for commercial and foreign naval shipping construction. Even if the non-RAN vessels were sold at 'cost' or with a CoA-subsidized discount, this would seem more economical than the sort of haphazard boom/bust which has been going on in Australian shipyards.

Well, wouldn't buying overseas be the logical solution?
There are several points which really need to be addressed here.

Advantages;
You get your stuff at the right price.
This only really works if there is either a very well drawn, tight contract agreed to by the purchaser and the builder. As seen with the A400M military contract where Airbus guaranteed a certain price, but due to programme issues had to raise the price, getting things at the 'right' price does not always happen, even with a signed contract in hand promising just that. IMO the circumstance where an order for naval vessels is most likely to be delivered at the 'right' price is for a MOTS purchase from an ongoing build programme.

The possible counter-arguments I have heard:

"Independence":
Anyway, unless you are the USN, you are going to rely on foreign friends for key systems. A warship is not to much good if doesn't f.ex. have modern weapons or sensors - and hopefully few suggest that AUS undertakes her own missile projects or radar projects...
I think you are either seriously undervaluing 'independence' or perhaps taking an entirely too narrow view of it. Consider, for instance, what a MOTS purchase is, and what that entails. A MOTS purchase is a Military Off the Shelf purchase. Some piece of kit, aircraft, ship, etc has been designed, tested, developed and put into production to meet some set of requirements someone drew up. Sometimes (not so much nowadays apart from some UAVs) this has even been done on speculation by a defence manufacturer. For a force like the ADF/RAN, a MOTS purchase means getting a piece of kit which meets requirements and specifications drawn up by someone else. If the ADF/RAN happens to have the same specifications or perhaps a looser version of those specifications for the same piece of kit, that is fine, or if the RAN or ADF specification can be met with very minor tweaks to the kit. By very minor I mean something like was done with the RAAF SHornet MOTS purchase, where the instrumentation (altimeter, fuel gauge, etc) as used by USN/USMC pilots was replaced with instrumentation providing metric system readouts.

Given Australia's literal place in the world, an the areas of interest to Australia, kit used by the ADF could be operating in environments ranging from the bitter cold of Antarctica, the extreme wind/sea conditions of the Roaring Forties, to the heat and humidity of tropical jungle in northern Australia, or as found in portions of ASEAN and South Pacific Islands. With the potential for a stop in the desert in the Outback along the way.

While the RAN is not going to be operating ships in a desert, the above does illustrate that ADF kit does need to be able to operate across a wider range of environments than most. That in turn means that specifications drawn up for equipment used by other forces might be sufficient for equipment Australia is looking to use.

A ship designed and built to operate in the North Atlantic or in the Artic Ocean, with an ice-strengthened hull and appropriate heating system would likely be appropriate for Southern Ocean operations, though depending on the ships ballast systems and bouyancy, the sea states in the Southern Ocean might still be a bit much. However, if that same vessel does not have the appropriate cooling and ventilation systems for a cruise in the tropics, then service in northern Australia and/or the islands north would be a problem for such a RAN vessel.

In short, it is not just about being able to 'build' everything oneself. It is very much also about being able to build what one wants/needs, and then retaining the ability to maintain and modify the same as needed.

While a foreign build for some of the same broad environmental specifications that the RAN needs could be done, there would then be exposure to programme risk, cost and delay, without the work and money staying within Australia.

"The poor workers about to loose their jobs"
The absolutely worst thing you can do to avoid job loss is to artificially keep something alive that aren't worthwhile, it just works opposite (just look how the UK managed to transform it self from leading industrial power to very much not leading industrial power in about 50 years).
Here too I feel the importance of this is being undervalued. From an economic standpoint, a local build, with high (but not complete) domestic content can be ~30% + more expensive, and still compete with an overseas build. That money, by virtue of staying within Australia, either is used to purchase things to support the shipyard in Australia or ends up getting paid to Australian workers. These workers then pay taxes, or use the money to purchase buy goods and services from other Australian companies, starting the cycle all over again. The flow-on effects from maintaining a local build have the potential to be significant just from an economic position.

As also alluded to above, by keeping the work, or having significant work done within Australia, can make maintenance, modification and support easier within Australia. If Australia did not have shipyards, then the skills of the Australian repair yards might not have been able to be retained sufficiently to meet RAN needs for updates and upgrades to various programmes like the FFG-UP or the ongoing upgrades to the Anzac FFH. What sort of impact would there be upon the RAN if a vessel needed to be sent overseas for prolonged periods of time in order for them to undergo maintenance and upgrades? If a vessel was being fitted with a new radar system like CEAPAR and there was a sudden need for a surge deployment, how long would it be before such a deployment could get back to Australian home waters if the upgrade was being done on the west coast of the US, nevermind in Europe?

It is absolutely true that domestic build programmes are not a 'retain at all costs' type of measure, but they are also very clearly not something to be dropped lightly either, since the advantages of a foreign build are not always so important.

-Cheers
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
This only really works if there is either a very well drawn, tight contract agreed to by the purchaser and the builder. As seen with the A400M military contract where Airbus guaranteed a certain price, but due to programme issues had to raise the price, getting things at the 'right' price does not always happen
Airbus = participating states.

Besides that you are right, though it's not at the heart of my argument, which is that you per definition get the right (or more correct, the world is, after all, not ideal) price on a free market.

From an economic standpoint, a local build, with high (but not complete) domestic content can be ~30% + more expensive, and still compete with an overseas build. That money, by virtue of staying within Australia, either is used to purchase things to support the shipyard in Australia or ends up getting paid to Australian workers. These workers then pay taxes, or use the money to purchase buy goods and services from other Australian companies
That's incorrect.

This is very simplistic, but I trust you get the idea:
Imagine this scenario: You are an australien worker, you can either work on the yard or in export oriented australien "beef industry". Both things will earn you 100 paper money (pm).

The australien state can choose between having the ship builded in australia or in China - the price is the same; 100 pm.

We will deal with two situations:
Situation A: You work at the yard and the goverment builds at home.
The goverment gives the yard 100 pm that ends up as your wage.
At the end of the day the goverment has a ship plus they have managed to tax your 100 pm wage for, say, 50 pm.
In short the goverment needs to loan 50 pm to get the ship (100 - 50 pm).

Situation B You work in the beef business and the goverment builds in china.
You earn 100 pm by exporting beef to, say, Denmark.
At the end of the day your goverment has managed to tax those 100 pm for 50 pm.
The goverment hands the chineese 100 pm and gets a ship in return.
At the end of the day the goverment has to loan 50 pm for the ship (100 for the ship, minus the 50pm tax income of your activity of selling beef)

So there is no difference between situation A and B neither from the goverment point of view nor from your point of view.
Now, imagine that you are better at making beef than building ships, maybe you can earn 110 pm in the beef business but only 100 pm in the yard business further more imagine that the chineese are better at building ships than you, say, they will build your ship for 90 pm.
Then, clearly, you should make beef and the chineese should build ships, anything else would be stupid.

The above "comparative advantages" is the reason why it pays off to trade with other people. They make what they are good at and you make what you are good at, and both has an advantage of it. (it's also true that it pays to trade with a country that doesn't have any advantages over you)
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
Todjaeger

In short, it is not just about being able to 'build' everything oneself. It is very much also about being able to build what one wants/needs, and then retaining the ability to maintain and modify the same as needed.
Yes, but it's not given that it's best to have the work done at home.
Ofcourse, some things are best done locally of natural reasons.
Though fitting a radar to a ship is hardly a good reason for maintaining an entire shipbuilding industry at the expense of the tax payers, less could probably do it.

The thing about building warships is that yard industry is also a commercial activity. That presents us with a problem if we can't keep our yards commercially viable, because then we will have to pay the investments, running costs and the innovation that the commercially viable yards are getting through doing business - and the volumne is huge.
Look at the sad state of the RN for a glimpse of what it means to have a navy while insisting on building the ships on non-viable yards.
 

jeffb

Member
Look at the sad state of the RN for a glimpse of what it means to have a navy while insisting on building the ships on non-viable yards.
This is just going to go around in circles forever if all you're going to do is completely dismiss what other people are telling you about the state of the Australian ship building industry and economy in general. I doubt you'll find many Australians on this board that will try to lecture you on the structure of German industry or economic policy, such discussions are also completely out of place in this thread.

The current state of the RN has very little to do with the state of their yards and everything to do with the state of their economy, I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove here.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
This is just going to go around in circles forever if all you're going to do is completely dismiss what other people are telling you about the state of the Australian ship building industry and economy in general. I doubt you'll find many Australians on this board that will try to lecture you on the structure of German industry or economic policy, such discussions are also completely out of place in this thread.

The current state of the RN has very little to do with the state of their yards and everything to do with the state of their economy, I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove here.
That basic laws of economics also apply to defense-shipbuilding and that australia should not go down the path of certain european nations that have made it an independent point to hammer out every bolt and screw and write "made at home" on each piece, regardless of cost.

"The current state of the RN has very little to do with the state of their yards and everything to do with the state of their economy"

UK is spending huge ressources on their millitary including navy, thing just is that they don't seem to get get much bang for the dollar. With the price tag on f,ex, a type 45+missiles one gets an idea why they constantly lack money. That certain UK shipbuilders (there is only one large owner left, Bae) build expensive ships should come as no surprise, since they have been unable to win more than a single large private/commercial order in international competion for the last 15 years.

Eventhough I don't have much knowledge I quess the state of the australien shipbuilding can be summed up in; around 75% of activity is defense related. Larger commercial projects are high-speed, but smaller, ferries, no large projects.
High profits.
 
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