I may have asked this before: does MAF station their PT-91, Astros MLRS or any type of heavy weaponry on Kalimantan/Borneo?
The Indonesian Army
- Thread starter DavidDCM
- Start date
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #142
No, Malaysia acts similar to Indonesia, and does not have any of modern stuff in Borneo. There is one cavalry battalion (wheeled APC's) in all of Eastern Malaysia, all else is light infantry without armored vehicles. Artillery just one battalion of 105 mm howitzers.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
@Chino, I can only say this: The marines still love their old but upgraded and reliable PT-76 then the AMX 10P. You can see this from every latest amphibious exercises where they put PT-76 as the main amphibious tanks.
For MBT, now seems from local forum or the noise that come from Army and Mindef there are three scenarios :
1. Get ROK KT-1B or KT-2. It will be the most expensives scenarios but the amount of ToT that ROK willing to give (on MBT or other projects, possibly the IFV) can compensate that.
2. Get T-90, it's cheaper and we can get more than a couple batalions. However the ToT the Russian willing to give is not much (heard from unconfirmed report, the Russian only willing to give ToT if Indonesia procure more than a divisional strength just like India did).
3. Get surplus Leo 2 from Netherland or Germany.
Since TNI only talked getting one or a couple batalions of MBT, seems the second scenario get push down more and more. The First scenario still preferable but the third still being look as an option.
No wonder Malaysia chaff so much at her paranoid southern neighbor.
(Not too sure what is ToT but I assume it is some kind of alternative to full cash payment?)
For TNI, wouldn't the Leo 2 option be the most sensible? Or are the Germans not granting any ToT terms?
For the Korean option, isn't there a huge capability difference - and therefore a corresponding price difference - between the K1 and K2 variants?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
ToT in here means as Transfer of Technology. In sense it will provide work for local industry from building parts up to license manufacturing. For people in the Government it means providing jobs and projects for strugling domestic defense industry whille still paying to get proven design.
Related to Leo 2, I don't think the German will provide ToT for buying used Tanks. Yes Leo 2 will be more reasonable and potentially more economicall to buy considering it's more proven design and already have advantages on populations worldwide. Besides assides for Netherland stocks I don't know if any used/surplus Leo 2 still available that not already being taken by Greece, Turkey, Singapore, and others.
However other considerations (especially for helping local defense industry to participate in the projects) can potentially swayed the choices to ROK. The ROK MBT will be much more expensives considering they're new. That's why the choices for ROK stuff will be related to other defense projects as overall packages.
Do we??
With regards to East Malaysia, apart from the Confrontation period with Indonesia, the main concern of the Malaysians has traditionally been the Philippines. Due to Manila's claims on Sabah, a news leak in 1968 that the Philippine 1st Special Forces Group was training insurgents in Luzon for infiltration and the many instances of PAF Sabres flying in Sabah airspace as a show of force was a great concern to Malaysia. Malaysia is currently leading the IMT in Mindanao and has been for a few years, as well as hosting the peace talks, but in past it has been accused by Philippine political and military officials of supplying arms to the MILF.
At the moment the main concern is about security in the waters of Sabah and preventing bandits/robbers/terrorists/insurgents/kidnappers [whatever one wishes to call them] from the southern Philippines islands from entering Malaysia on kidnapping raids and the dispute over Ambalat with Indonesia. David DCM is correct in that there are only light infantry units in East Malaysia - a division HQ. I suppose that there is no requirement or urgency to deploy anything heavier there at the moment. Also, the thing to bear in mind is that apart from 48 MBTs, 36 MLRS and 28155mm howitzers, there no 'heavy' equipment operated.
Ananda, would you agree with me that given it's history, threat perceptions and geography, Indonesia's main concerns remain counter insurgency and LICs rather than a full blown war with a neighbour and that the current structure of the TNI-AD and the stuff it is buying would indicate that there is at present no shift from this direction?
I'm my opinion, of all the ASEAN countries apart from Vietnam, it is Indonesia that has the most interesting military history and has fought more campaigns than any other country - from the time it gained independence to until a few years ago, it has fought various nationalist rebel groups in Sumatra, Java, Ambon, Sulawesi, Kalimantan, East Timor and Irian. At one time in the mid-50's, the PEMESTA rebels even controlled 2/3rds of all Sumatra! The Indonesian army is also the only regional army that has actually made combat drops, involving paratroopers, against armed opponents.
Last edited:
Why would TNI want ToT if they are just looking at arming one battalion? Unless, of course, they mean one battalion now... many battalions later?
In theory at least, an enemy can only come by sea or air (which also means they will initially be quite lightly-equipped). So your first line of defence: air and sea assets, are much much more important for such a huge country than buying expensive MBT.
The only land routes for invasion of Indonesia would be Kalimantan and Irian Jaya, so that's where it'll be nice to have MBTs for defense and offense.
The Filipinos were one of the stronger SEA nation in the 60's and 70's.
Actually which country is the closest friend of the Philippines in SEA?
Supplying arms to "MILFs"?
Bad....
Still, these are enough to cause some mischief.
Sincerely, I am always thankful that Singapore is lucky in that we have giant, but mostly peaceful neighbours.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
The ToT I think it's not just for one project. I don't think even we decided to buy Korean MBT, we got ToT for MBT. But we probably got ToT from other projects (perhaps IFV), which in turn makes the overall packages can provide some benefit to local industry.Why would TNI want ToT if they are just looking at arming one battalion? Unless, of course, they mean one battalion now... many battalions later?
In theory at least, an enemy can only come by sea or air (which also means they will initially be quite lightly-equipped). So your first line of defence: air and sea assets, are much much more important for such a huge country than buying expensive MBT.
The only land routes for invasion of Indonesia would be Kalimantan and Irian Jaya, so that's where it'll be nice to have MBTs for defense and offense.
@Sturm, I think the procurement of TNI more to deterence and keeping up with the procurement trend in region. When more than one of your neighbours getting MBT, then they want to get MBT just to keep up. However the main back bone on armoured still light ones.
Ananda, there was a report in the 90's that the TNI-AD was very interested in the Weasel.
On paper, Indonesia had the strongest military in the 60's but the wealthiest was the Philippines and also the most politically influential. One of the reasons President Macapagal was opposed to the formation of Malaysia was because he was pushing for a loose federation comprising Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines called Malphindo.
Good question. I think in terms of defence, it would have been Singapore, which also had A-4 training detachments at Clark.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Well that's about it. Only interested, but no further follow on. BTW; I think it's a bit inconsistant to compared the relative military strength on the SEA/Asean nations on the 60's with today.
The situations much different, with Vietnam in the war, Indonesia in the brink of regional ambitions, and Singapore just come out as nation, whille both Singapore and Malaysia still enjoy UK's significant defence umbrella. I think in the paper, the relative strength of Philipines was not much different than today, but with strong US presence, I think there's little interest to build own strength at that time.
But still very interesting nonetheless. Analysing previous conflicts, threat perceptions and security challenges, a country faced in the past is also interesting and important because the way many regional armed forces are structured, even today, and the reason they do certain things they way they do, is a legacy of their past history.
I felt they were stronger in the past then now.
Their economy was better (because of the US bases?). And their military seemed to have been better armed back then with tanks and jet fighters when the rest of SEA was still poorly-armed. But then they fell behind.
Last edited:
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Philipines economy better not because US bases alone. But because at that time, her infrastructur and industries better than her neighbours. Whille in average the Philipino's on the 60's was the most educated populations. Her failures to match the export driven economy in the 80's and 90's of Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia, was the cause of Philipines lagging behind the rest of Asean 5. That and the fiasco that happend in the Philipines after Marcos gone.
However even with relative better economy in the 60's, The Philipines hardly had the strongest Military or the best equip one in the region.
In terms of Fighters and Air Force, what Indonesia got at the 60's with around 60-70 Mig 17, More than 40 IL 18, More than 30 TU-16, More than 20 Mig 21, with simmilar number of Mig 19 plus Mig 15 UTI and L-29 as trainers (made TNI-AU as first Air Force in the region with Jet Trainers), far outstrip the Philipines Air Force in the 60's (heck even outsripe in relative stregth of what TNI-AU has today
).Thailand Army was among the first in the region to get MBT, and they begin to get M-41 at the 60's plus M-48 at the late 60's as the situational in Indo-china becoming worse and worse. Whille the South Vietnamese army also got same equipment from US and even in larger number and made them the biggest US Weapons receipients in the SEA.
I believe with strong US presences made the Philipines had little incentives to beef-up their Military more.
The strength Philippines in the 1960's was not its military power but the diplomatic influence and clout it had in the region, plus its status as a very close American ally and former colony. Not only did it host the Americans at Subic and Clark, the relationship between both countries was so close that Philippine contract pilots were also used extensively by the CIA for clandestine flights, such as arms drops to Indonesia to the PEMESTA rebels and in operations in Indochina.
And interesting article.
http://permesta.8m.net/relates/artikel_angkasa_al_pope.html
Very true, on paper the AURI had a much larger and more powerful fleet than the PAF. But unlike the PAF, who had access to the American support infrastructure at Clark, the AURI had great problems mantaining its diverse Soviet supplied aircraft fleet, a problem only made worse after 1965 when spares all but dried up. The decline of the PAF only started in the early 1980's.In terms of Fighters and Air Force, what Indonesia got at the 60's with around 60-70 Mig 17, More than 40 IL 18, More than 30 TU-16, More than 20 Mig 21, with simmilar number of Mig 19 plus Mig 15 UTI and L-29 as trainers (made TNI-AU as first Air Force in the region with Jet Trainers), far outstrip the Philipines Air Force in the 60's (heck even outsripe in relative stregth of what TNI-AU has today
And interesting article.
http://permesta.8m.net/relates/artikel_angkasa_al_pope.html
Last edited:
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Yes, the infrastructure for hard skill supposed to be prepared later on, since at the 60's the focus was for training to fly and maintain the fleet, whille the facility for support was supposed to be in the late 60's. By the time Soekarno's fall, there are more than 5000 Indonesian students in Russia and Eastern Europe whille around 2000 or more in China. Those students study and train the hard science and advance technical to prepared for 'strategic' industry that the Russian and the Eastern Block promissed Soekarno to help build by late 60's and early 70's.
Incidently those infrastructure included Nuclear reactor that design to be Plutonium breeder, supposed to be located in Serpong. This was later on by the time of Soeharto's being change as compensation by the west to nuclear research facility (including 30 MW research reactor) in the same location.
In sense, SEA will be in much different condition if in the 70's Soekarno still in the helm of Indonesia. Soekarno have different perpective on the Industry compared to Soeharto. Whille Soeharto aimed for Industry that can produced something that can be exported, Soekarno aimed for basic Industry that can be developed for Heavy and Strategic Industry (and he does not cared for Export or strengthening Private sector in that matter). He's revolutionaries like Mao's, and just like Mao's he's looking for something grandeur that can be sold as prideness to the people and not something that can 'just' feed the people. Afterall that's the shortness of most Revolutioners in the world.
BTW, some US historian claimed that US support for Permesta was seen by Kennedy's administrations as mistakes by then Eishenhower administrations. Kennedy's thus try to coerce Soekarno including giving him a Squadron of C-130B (thus make TNI-AU as the first Asian nation that had C-130) as compensations for what US support to Permesta. In sense it's being given also to get Allan Pope released.
Khruschev then after that besides giving Soekarno's more Fighters, he also give him a Squadron of AN-12, just to show Soekarno that Sovyet got something that can match C-130. BTW, when Soeharto send Ali Moertopo (his right hand man) to KL, to fix the fence after KONFRONTASI, he's flying with AN-12.
Anyway it's a little bit out of topic of Indonesian Army
In ''Kopassus'' by Ken Conboy, he mentions how the RPKAD had problems jumping from the AN-12 with U.S. parachutes because the AN-12 had a higher speed than the C-130. Some RPKAD people were also sent to Ryazan to be trained by the VDV.
If you haven't read it, I'd really recommend getting Conboy's 'Kopassus' and ''Intel'. The amount of research he did is fantastic, he was given access to the achives and interviewed many top Indonesian military officials.
I'd also read that book, and I highly recommend it, too.
Most memorable for me was how well Kopassus successfully ended the Garuda hijacking in Bangkok despite the little time they had to prepare for it. Also stuck in my mind how the surviving hijackers were captured, then mysteriously died while being flown back to Indonesia by the Kopassus immediately after the operation.
Sadly, most of what you hear about the Kopassus these days is how murderous they are/were. Sound like a fine unit gone out of control.
I also read one book about the SAS in Borneo during the Konfrontasi. Another book I bought but have yet to read is about Indonesia's war in Aceh.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Whatever the controversy, Kopasus still the best and most battle proven unit in Indonesia. After that then the Marines, Kostrad, and Air Force Special Unit. Personnaly, the controversy of Kopasus begin with the fact besides it's the most combat capable unit in TNI, it's also the most trusted military unit by Soeharto.
But if we really look upon the role of Special Units all over the world, then you can see they are the unit that's being prepared by their Government to conduct Black Ops. Green Baret for instances, if you read their history in Vietnam for instances, you can see that in the eyes of Vietnamese (especially the VC and NVA), this unit was the most Brutal and Murderous GI they have to faced.
Brutal or not, sometimes depends on what the perspective. Still that's the nature of Black Ops. It's grey area. Kopasus in the hand of Soeharto's son in law (Prabowo) by the 90's got two faces; one their readiness and capability improved significantly (they also conduct a lot of training and coordination with US, UK, and Australian special units), but on the other hand Kopasus really venture to the area that considered the darkest of Black Ops. Kopasus in some area really turned in to the regimes most vicious watch dog.
In sense by 90's their profesionalism really being clouded by their behaviour that basically politically motivated and not entirely proffessional soldier nature. That's why after Soeharto's fall, the first thing new Government did was to strengthen the Marines which in many eyes in here (that time) considered behaving more professionally than Kopasus. Sadly now even under SBY, Kopasus development still being put behind the Marines and Kostrad, although at the same time being a General himself SBY also queitly begin developing Kopasus once more.