Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Abraham Gubler]

How many working shipyards do we actually have that are capable of building or refitting a decent sized ship?

Ones that I can think of:
- Forgacs (Newcastle & Brisbane)
- BAe Williamtown
- ASC Adelaide
- Incat Tassy (HSV only?)
- Austal Henderson (HSV only?)
- The guy in FNQ who keeps bidding for stuff but has finance issues?

Forgacs in Newcastle and Brisbane are repair yards. They also own Carrington @ Tomago which has done good work for the CoA (Tobruk, MHCs, Aurora Australis) but that was under previous ownership.

Thales Australia offer ship builds from the Captain Cook graving dock in Garden Island but didn’t cover themselves in glory with the FFG upgrade and the LPA Watercraft.

Williamtown has been gutted twice in 30 years, once for good as part of the ridiculous Australian Frigate Program ($1 billion and 13 years for two frigates we could have got from the US for $200 million and 6 years), the other time because the Howard Government slashed the post 1990s shipbuilding plan. All of the problems of the RNZN ships and AWD are because the corvette program was cancelled to build the Armidales.

NQEA in Cairns still does good work and their financial issues are due to the transfer of ownership from the 2nd generation to the 3rd. Nice gift ehh: here’s the company son but I’m taking the cash reserves so you can’t keep that first contract…

The CUF at Henderson allows lots of companies to do big work there. You could probably build a CVF there if they weren’t so busy with oil and gas work.

The next big CUF is at Osborne beside ASC which they are using for the AWD. ASC have also designed combat boats for shits and giggles.

Austal and Incat are both aluminium boat builders.

Strategic Marine at Geraldton, Henderson and Vung Tau don’t get the kudus they deserve. They are building and selling lots of offshore support ships and use VietNam for cheap steel work.

There are also quite a few small boat builders around producing yachts, trawlers and work boats. Birdon Marine is the most motivated of these for defence work. They have the CB90 license.

Plus there are the design teams like AMT, Revolution, Sea Transport and many others.

Then there are the ghost yards: Vickers at Cockatoo Island, BHP at Whyalla, Walkers at Maryborough, Morts at Balmain, Evans Deakin at Brisbane and others.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Didn't realise AMC at Henderson was so big, but still only a floating dock, plus its tied up with the ANZAC's.

AMC is a lot more than a floating dock. The Anzac repair thing is a side show there, done at Tenix's (now BAES) bit of turf between the CUF (AMC) and Austal.

Williamtown is size limited to frigates unless the redevelop to a flat top working surface.

With modern cranes and prefab tech you just need a big flat surface and a barge or shiplift as an interface to build big ships. Slipways are in manyways a handicap.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I also forgot the dock at Kuttabul which is run by Thales Australia?

I'm assuming the two options would be Williamtown and ASC?

I doubt the forgac's floating docks would be all that conducive to a proper refit and their shipbuilding facility further up the hunter is too small. I do remember seeing at least one Anzac plus the new southern ocean patrol vessel in the dock at various times last year though.

Didn't realise AMC at Henderson was so big, but still only a floating dock, plus its tied up with the ANZAC's.

There's some surprise builders which don't get any airplay (deliberately so on their part). I've attended a couple of ocean going trawler launches in SA, its surprising how many uniforms from different navies magically appear at these events (and they're not advertised at all)

these guys are doing some very very smick small ship designs, very smart sea going features which the larger builders are grudgingly admiring and will probably attempt to build into future offerings.

the last launch I attended included Thai Navy, Viet Navy, spanish majors, danes and a clutch of RAN engineers.... all for one 200 tonne launch. they weren't just there for free sausages.

 

[StevoJH]

AMC is a lot more than a floating dock. The Anzac repair thing is a side show there, done at Tenix's (now BAES) bit of turf between the CUF (AMC) and Austal.

Williamtown is size limited to frigates unless the redevelop to a flat top working surface.

With modern cranes and prefab tech you just need a big flat surface and a barge or shiplift as an interface to build big ships. Slipways are in manyways a handicap.

The Google maps image may be out of date, but I was mainly noting the lack of a large fixed drydock, wouldn't that be a prerequisite for the construction of a large ship in block form? You'd need a massive shiplift otherwise..unless you assembled the whole thing on a slipway or other flat area then then somehow moved it to the water?

I did notice lots of slipways, lots of big concrete aprons and lots of large build sheds though.

Would it theoretically possible to reactivate any of the ghost yards?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

these guys are doing some very very smick small ship designs, very smart sea going features which the larger builders are grudgingly admiring and will probably attempt to build into future offerings.

Would that be Peter James's bulbous bow small ship designs?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Would that be Peter James's bulbous bow small ship designs?

Not the one I was referring to, but he's one of the mentionables. The outstanding achievers are a couple of croation brothers. they do very very smick work. I think quite a few patrol boat builders are looking at the smarts they build into confined space,,,

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Not the one I was referring to, but he's one of the mentionables. The outstanding achievers are a couple of croation brothers. they do very very smick work. I think quite a few patrol boat builders are looking at the smarts they build into confined space,,,

Same yard (Adelaide Ship). Peter James is their Naval Architect and designed the trawler with bulbous bow they are selling like hotcakes.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The Google maps image may be out of date, but I was mainly noting the lack of a large fixed drydock, wouldn't that be a prerequisite for the construction of a large ship in block form? You'd need a massive shiplift otherwise..unless you assembled the whole thing on a slipway or other flat area then then somehow moved it to the water?

They use a barge that you roll the completed ship onto and is then floated into deep water and ballasted down allowing the ship to float away. Same deal as Ingalls in Mississipi.

http://www.australianmarinecomplex.com.au/_document/pdfs/current-projects/Update-$174-million-upgrade-at-the-AMC-CUF.pdf

 

[weegee]

I see in the media that during our PM'S visit to China she has pledged that our 2 defence forces will exercise together more, I am assuming this relates directly to our 2 navies?
What will the US think of this good or bad? or is the US all for it to try and get a better idea of what's going on and get a better idea of the capability of the PLAN? Or again is this something the US will already know?

 

[icelord]

Would love to comment on the Zac's....can't though

p,s I would would hate to be the O.O.D of Stirling this weekend with two "East" Zac's and two Zac's from the "Far East" alongside. :hitwall

Just seen this and have to say, we were'nt THAT bad, sure the pissbar did more trade in one nite then it has all year(in the space of 5mins it went from all RAN Jnrs to all Kiwi Jnrs) and it was a great nite in Rockingham(if thats possible) seeing as how no one wanted to fight a jack, as the 300 behind were ready to back him up. you should try Singapore right now, 4 Aussies, 2 kiwis and a POM ship in port...Terror club never seen it coming, and neither did the city....

 

[StevoJH]

Is Singapore still standing? :drunk1

Has there been any discussion of what will replace success (MARS, Canadian JSS, Berlin Class, Cantabria)? And if so, will it be a single ship or will it be a pair with one replacing Sirius as well?

 

[icelord]

Im backtracking here to keep up but:
There is no room on an FFG for any changes, putting VLS in was a struggle and room was taken away. The ops room is a squeeze now, and running Task force as well as ship based normal operations would be a struggle.
Anzacs "could" have a command element in 01F but that would take away spare room from its current use.
While its possible, its just no practical

As for AOR, yeah from what the boys here on success are telling me, may need to speed up the replacement, the double hulling went fine(so far) but may have the same troubles that LPAs ended with...engine

Clearance divers are enablers for SF, they are like specialised intelligence operatives, non-badged SF signallers or land based EOD equivalents, they fulfil a very specific role. Their mission is not to close with and kill the enemy but provide critical support so others can. Most units who fall under such roles receive specialist pay and are held in high esteem by their SF peers. Don't fall into the trap of branding every unit 'SF' just because selection is tough and the job difficult.

They are SF, just ask them im sure they'll tell you how "special" they are....HA!nfloorl:

 

[aussienscale]

i wonder if, once Canberra comes online there are plans to swap out one or both of Largs Cranes, theyre both only 30 tonne cranes so they cant lift LCM-8 on deck, i guess it doesnt really matter with the well and all, but K&M both have 70 ton cranes. it would make sense to me if they were recyced onto Largs.

As well as the other replies you also have to take into account the centre of gravity of the ships design, you can't just bolt on a crane with twice the lifting capability and not have serious leverage and loading issues

 

[gf0012-aust]

Same yard (Adelaide Ship). Peter James is their Naval Architect and designed the trawler with bulbous bow they are selling like hotcakes.

Not the vessel and they don't use James (checked today) They are self taught which is what the europeans are gobsmacked about

No bulbous bow either. (I saw it on the slips). bow and stern thrusters, one fixed, one pod. its the internals that everyone is getting excited about.

 

[StevoJH]

What does a 200t fishing boat set you back?

Anything stopping any of these countries purchasing either one of these trawlers or the designs to the trawlers and carrying out a full evaluation?

 

[gf0012-aust]

What does a 200t fishing boat set you back?

Anything stopping any of these countries purchasing either one of these trawlers or the designs to the trawlers and carrying out a full evaluation?

there's a stack of them being sold in europe, none that I know of in APAC.

there's no sensitive technology in these designs, but they do make a concerted effort to not give off details to their competitors, that however only goes so far.

these small vessels do have some good ideas, and thats basically going to be identified by any decent maritime engineer who gets to have a look.

it does influence OPV designs etc....

the problem however is discipline in the design. the proposed customs vessels have got everything but the kitchen sink (well, they do have a kitchen sink, but its the analogy that counts!)

there's so much gear and fitout on these ships that the only thing that they are missing is a catapult and VLS.

I'd bet london to a brick that Alexas would agree with me that they've gone a bit overboard and over-engineered them.

 

[StevoJH]

Has it got anything to do with overcompensating for any flaws and limitations they've found with the Bay's?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Has it got anything to do with overcompensating for any flaws and limitations they've found with the Bay's?

nup. at this point I'm going to pass the ball to Alexas.

on another note, the Largs will come with a temp aircraft shelter inclusive of kitchen sinks...

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Has it got anything to do with overcompensating for any flaws and limitations they've found with the Bay's?

The process for defining the Cape class was run by RPDE where they basically got every stakeholder in a room and asked them what they wanted. So the ship was quickly pilled on with stuff and the possible builders did intervene and say 'no we can't do that'. But the expecations were so high it was things like helicopter landing pads that were ruled out. Bay class were designed to be too small to do the job and now Cape class too big. Transfer NMU to the Navy and Coastwatch to the Air Force and make Border Protection Command an all ADF mission. With of course civil authorities ship riding to do the arresting, regulating and so forth.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Originally Posted by riksavage
Clearance divers are enablers for SF, they are like specialised intelligence operatives, non-badged SF signallers or land based EOD equivalents, they fulfil a very specific role. Their mission is not to close with and kill the enemy but provide critical support so others can. Most units who fall under such roles receive specialist pay and are held in high esteem by their SF peers. Don't fall into the trap of branding every unit 'SF' just because selection is tough and the job difficult.

Try telling that to the TAG qualified Clearance Divers...