Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[gf0012-aust]

So to suggest that there are questions about the quality of work in Australian yards, true or not, I'm not in a position to say, but there certainly seemed to be a significant amount of issues during their initial construction.

Hope all the problems were sorted out(?), but we will see in the fullness of time!

my maritime involvement with building is fundamentally subs. but on my last maritime project the US Dept of Commerce wrote up a report re the quality and decline of UK shipbuilding expertise, it was intended as a lessons learnt and a sanitised version was provided to the ABCA community. So, I am kind of aware of the health status of UK builds and refurbs

If I had my "druthers" I'd be lancing out some of the australian yards completely.

There are some clear lessons learnt with Bill and Ben, and the US experiences with 2 australian yards is also significant.

again, IMO there are very few yards in australia up to the job, the rest are pandas and need to be cut loose.

again, all opinion but based on and including my experiences on the other side of the fence

work should be offered on demonstrated capability, not on national obligations

 

[John Newman]

Swan hunter closed after the LSD(A) contract was completed. Therefore the staff at the yard probably considered it to be in their best interests to drag the build out as long as possible, and with their jobs finishing up after the build finished they probably didn't have anywhere near the motivation to maintain a high standard of workmanship as a yard like the BAe yard at Goven would.

Yes too true, sort of like the old saying "don't by a car that was built on a Monday morning or Friday afternoon!"

It would be hard to keep being motivated, especially when you knew that when the job was done, so were you!!!

 

[John Newman]

my maritime involvement with building is fundamentally subs. but on my last maritime project the US Dept of Commerce wrote up a report re the quality and decline of UK shipbuilding expertise, it was intended as a lessons learnt and a sanitised version was provided to the ABCA community. So, I am kind of aware of the health status of UK builds and refurbs

If I had my "druthers" I'd be lancing out some of the australian yards completely.

There are some clear lessons learnt with Bill and Ben, and the US experiences with 2 australian yards is also significant.

again, IMO there are very few yards in australia up to the job, the rest are pandas and need to be cut loose.

again, all opinion but based on and including my experiences on the other side of the fence

work should be offered on demonstrated capability, not on national obligations

I wasn't suggesting for one minute that what you are saying about Australian shipyards is not true, you obviously have far more knowledge than little old me, but more to the point I was saying that "we" are not "alone" in the good vs not so good quality of work.

It is interesting that, of the 4 Bays built, the UK is getting rid of the "only" one that was totally built and completed by Swan Hunter, eg Largs Bay.

Of the other three, two built totally by BAE and the third completed by BAE they are keeping in service, well at least for now!!

Whenever there is "series" production, be it cars, ships or aircraft built, there is always somewhere in the group a "lemon" or one that is just not quiet up to the rest of the pack, now thats not to say that Largs Bay is a lemon, but maybe there are reasons that the UK decided that "she" was the one to go.

As I said, time will tell, be interesting to see in, say 10 years time, what little, or not so little, issues pop up with Largs compared to her 3 sisters.

Who knows??

 

[gf0012-aust]

I wasn't suggesting for one minute that what you are saying about Australian shipyards is not true, you obviously have far more knowledge than little old me, but more to the point I was saying that "we" are not "alone" in the good vs not so good quality of work.

I didn't see it as anything but what you've said..

As I said, time will tell, be interesting to see in, say 10 years time, what little, or not so little, issues pop up with Largs compared to her 3 sisters.

Who knows??

well, there are some savage lessons learnt being remembered for this one, so hopefully, the entire assessment and acceptance process will be more robust and "frictionless"

 

[John Newman]

well, there are some savage lessons learnt being remembered for this one, so hopefully, the entire assessment and acceptance process will be more robust and "frictionless"

Im not trying to be a cynic, and I seriously hope that we get what we expect to get, cause we sure as hell need this capability in and working properly before the LHD's arrive.

I just hope that the "survey" work done by Teekay Shipping was spot on, I also hope that the sea trials before delivery prove that Largs is fit and ready for a very long service with the RAN.

If there are issues, then I hope the contract for purchase has an appropriate "out" clause or equally a mechanisim to adjust the price accordingly if there are major defects.

Sometimes deals seem too good to be true!

It reminds me of when I worked in the Real Estate industry, please don't hold that against me!!

And that's "buyer beware". I've seen people agree on a price on a property, not do a pest and building inspection, settle, find its full of termites and end up with a disaster on their hands.

I've also seen people agree on a price, do the inspections, find all the problems and be able to either back out or "renegotiate" the price to the satisfaction of all parties.

Sometimes deals like this can seem too good to be true, I hope it is!!

 

[alexsa]

.

I just hope that the "survey" work done by Teekay Shipping was spot on, I also hope that the sea trials before delivery prove that Largs is fit and ready for a very long service with the RAN.

!!

Teekay is a commercial ship operator, not a classification society or any other sort of recognised survey authority. While there has been some comment about class performacne I would not assume that a ship operator who is unfamilair with the vessel and not express trained in such processes is going to offer a guarentee that problems will not arise.

To be honest I am a littel perplexed about the sue of Teekay...... may avhe something to do wiht the MV Delos.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

To be honest I am a littel perplexed about the sue of Teekay...... may avhe something to do wiht the MV Delos.

One of the reasons the DMO used Teekay to buy the Delos was the fear that if a soverign entity like the Commonwealth of Australia was shopping around for a tanker everyone would double the price. Teekay being just another shipping agent was the same as the many others prowling around Korean yards looking for a good deal.

While its much harder to apply this logic to the RFA Largs Bay it could have been a ham fisted effort by the CoA to appear uninterested in the LSD before bidding? Or just another example of the total failure of defence leadership-APS-government relationship where an external party was seen as having more credibility by Government than the RAN despite having no corporate knowledge about LSDs. "Well if Teekay says its OK I guess I can trust that..."

 

[alexsa]

One of the reasons the DMO used Teekay to buy the Delos was the fear that if a soverign entity like the Commonwealth of Australia was shopping around for a tanker everyone would double the price. Teekay being just another shipping agent was the same as the many others prowling around Korean yards looking for a good deal.

While its much harder to apply this logic to the RFA Largs Bay it could have been a ham fisted effort by the CoA to appear uninterested in the LSD before bidding? Or just another example of the total failure of defence leadership-APS-government relationship where an external party was seen as having more credibility by Government than the RAN despite having no corporate knowledge about LSDs. "Well if Teekay says its OK I guess I can trust that..."

Hi Abe, I waa aware of the reason they had Teekay for the Delos and have some knowledge in the explanations as to why this was necessary. it was a study in ingnorance on international ship broking.

I suspect Teekay now have a 'relationship' hence the appointment. completely agree with your last sentiment.

 

[John Newman]

One of the reasons the DMO used Teekay to buy the Delos was the fear that if a soverign entity like the Commonwealth of Australia was shopping around for a tanker everyone would double the price. Teekay being just another shipping agent was the same as the many others prowling around Korean yards looking for a good deal.

While its much harder to apply this logic to the RFA Largs Bay it could have been a ham fisted effort by the CoA to appear uninterested in the LSD before bidding? Or just another example of the total failure of defence leadership-APS-government relationship where an external party was seen as having more credibility by Government than the RAN despite having no corporate knowledge about LSDs. "Well if Teekay says its OK I guess I can trust that..."

Yes I agree 100% when shopping around in Korea for a "commercial" tanker, yes that makes sense, don't show your hand or it might cost you!, but an in service naval vessel?

Maybe they wanted an "out" and someone to blame if it all turns to crap!

I had always though the timeline, from memory, and reports said:
1. UK announces defence cuts, specifically of interest for RAN, is the Largs Bay.
2. A RAN team inspects the ship in December last year (maybe this was Teekay all along??).
3. This year, minister Smith announces our interest.
4. Minister Smith announces the agreement to purchase and mentions the inspection by Teekay.

When the purchase was announced that our bid was successful and "Teekey" had been involved (I though to myself "who the hell are they?), now I know!

So if Teekay is a "commercial" shipping agent, contracted by Government and gives the "OK" and "if" what they have turned out to report back to the Government is wrong/flawed, then what sort of come back to we have?

Sounds like the government employed a "buyers" agent, I know it's all "what ifs", but interesting none the less!

 

[SASWanabe]

i wonder if, once Canberra comes online there are plans to swap out one or both of Largs Cranes, theyre both only 30 tonne cranes so they cant lift LCM-8 on deck, i guess it doesnt really matter with the well and all, but K&M both have 70 ton cranes. it would make sense to me if they were recyced onto Largs.

 

[gf0012-aust]

i wonder if, once Canberra comes online there are plans to swap out one or both of Largs Cranes, theyre both only 30 tonne cranes so they cant lift LCM-8 on deck, i guess it doesnt really matter with the well and all, but K&M both have 70 ton cranes. it would make sense to me if they were recyced onto Largs.

Not without doing a major recertification and acceptance....

 

[Abraham Gubler]

i wonder if, once Canberra comes online there are plans to swap out one or both of Largs Cranes, theyre both only 30 tonne cranes so they cant lift LCM-8 on deck, i guess it doesnt really matter with the well and all, but K&M both have 70 ton cranes. it would make sense to me if they were recyced onto Largs.

There is little need to deck lift LCM8s when you have a well dock. But an LCM8 weighes 34 tonnes light so you could do it within the over engineer margin of the crane if you really had to. No need but because of the stern dock.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Fairly sure at least some of them were upgraded to 1B, unless i'm getting them mixed up with the Kiwi Phalanx units which definately were.

RAN's haven't been upgraded yet. That project is still a few years off, according to DCP...

 

[StevoJH]

RAN's haven't been upgraded yet. That project is still a few years off, according to DCP...

Thanks.

Do the Anzac's have Mini Typhoon aboard? The Navy site says they have 4 * .50 machine guns but doesnt mention the type of mounting.

 

[Volkodav]

Lower end.

Quite frankly, and personally, I agree with getting the changes to fitout incl the CSS done in the UK - it will be part of the acceptance testing.

Looking at some of the quality of work done recently in australian yards - it kind of speaks for itself.

Shouldn't that be "some" Australian Yards?

Sorry to be pedantic but.........

It is quite ironic that one of the oldest yards actually has the newest, least experienced work force with the majority of their people of any worth technically having moved on to their competitors or into higher paying jobs in other industries.

The whole industry souldn't be judged by the performance of one player.

 

[StevoJH]

How many working shipyards do we actually have that are capable of building or refitting a decent sized ship?

Ones that I can think of:
- Forgacs (Newcastle & Brisbane)
- BAe Williamtown
- ASC Adelaide
- Incat Tassy (HSV only?)
- Austal Henderson (HSV only?)
- The guy in FNQ who keeps bidding for stuff but has finance issues?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Shouldn't that be "some" Australian Yards?

Sorry to be pedantic but.........

It is quite ironic that one of the oldest yards actually has the newest, least experienced work force with the majority of their people of any worth technically having moved on to their competitors or into higher paying jobs in other industries.

The whole industry souldn't be judged by the performance of one player.

Yeah, I could have worded it better.... however look at Steves follow on list.

Only 2 are in the hunt.

StevoJH, I've had some dealings with Don Fry out of FNQ, mainly turbines and hypersonics.

 

[Volkodav]

Yeah, I could have worded it better.... however look at Steves follow on list.

Only 2 are in the hunt.

StevoJH, I've had some dealings with Don Fry out of FNQ, mainly turbines and hypersonics.

I know and to be honest there are problems in the good ones too but no worse than we have seen OS. There are issues with some of the off shore suppliers and classification societies as well resulting in a fair bit of extra review of things you would assume should be correct.

I am not sure on the Fry family tree but my cousin worked for which ever one did the Fremantles, I believe Dons dad but it may have been Don. I think Don has pulled the pin now and left the whole show (less the cash reserves) to his son.

Forgacs have been a real surprise package, almost (or possibly) too good to be true.

Increased surveilance and a greater focus on certification seems to be a likely direction for the RAN and DMO.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I am not sure on the Fry family tree but my cousin worked for which ever one did the Fremantles, I believe Dons dad but it may have been Don. I think Don has pulled the pin now and left the whole show (less the cash reserves) to his son.

Wookie and I both dealt with Don here and in the US. Wookies opinion is probably unprintable

I last spoke to him 10 months ago as he was asking about future subs. (I was more pi44ed off that he tracked me down and came straight through to my phone)

I basically fobbed him off and told him that I was unable to assist and then promptly whacked it in the probity and contact register.

 

[StevoJH]

I also forgot the dock at Kuttabul which is run by Thales Australia?

I'm assuming the two options would be Williamtown and ASC?

I doubt the forgac's floating docks would be all that conducive to a proper refit and their shipbuilding facility further up the hunter is too small. I do remember seeing at least one Anzac plus the new southern ocean patrol vessel in the dock at various times last year though.

Didn't realise AMC at Henderson was so big, but still only a floating dock, plus its tied up with the ANZAC's.