NZDF General discussion thread

[recce.k1]

On a slight Pacific Partnership tangent, I'm also impressed that the USN being the busy and visible entity that it is, have websites for their vessels such as the USS Cleveland to inform the public and community of their "good work" and going's on etc.

And slipping back to Afghanistan for a moment, the "news" in NZ over the last few days was the admission to TVNZ by the defmin that NZSAS/ISAF took out insurgents from the neighbouring Baghlan province that were responsible for attacks on the NZDF PRT patrols last year in the northeastern region of the Bamiyan province.

Unusual though in that the defmin actually confirmed the SAS operation as normally these things are not discussed etc. SAS killed Taleban fighters | Stuff.co.nz

I think Ron Smith's commentary below (in which TVNZ slants) is aimed more at front-footing any potential Green Party type beatups (ie suggesting their views represent mainstream NZ'ers) and a somewhat confused media that is conflicted by their self imposed obligations to drum up devils advocate counter viewpoints etc. But in very general terms the public don't seem to have an issue with this incident occurring (judging by feedback in various media) ...
Kiwis accused of 'naive pacifism' over role of NZ troops | NATIONAL News

 

[lima25218]

Hey guys, Just joined today and have read this thread from the 1st post, some fantastic ideas, lets hope the polo's look at this. Dont know if any of you guys remember this, back in the mid 90's when Russia coudn't pay its dairy bill to us they offered us double what they owed nz and we could help ourselves to their armoury. From memory it was NZ 1st and the Greens who declined the offer and wrote it off!!!, we could have got hold off alot of equipment that we could have onsold or upgraded/ modified with western tech and i'm guessing we wouldnt be in the situation that we find ourselves today.

And Before they send the LAV's to the ghan, are they going to upgrade the armour? Damn sight better than the jury rigged hilux!

 

[Cadredave]

Hey guys, Just joined today and have read this thread from the 1st post, some fantastic ideas, lets hope the polo's look at this. Dont know if any of you guys remember this, back in the mid 90's when Russia coudn't pay its dairy bill to us they offered us double what they owed nz and we could help ourselves to their armoury. From memory it was NZ 1st and the Greens who declined the offer and wrote it off!!!, we could have got hold off alot of equipment that we could have onsold or upgraded/ modified with western tech and i'm guessing we wouldnt be in the situation that we find ourselves today.

And Before they send the LAV's to the ghan, are they going to upgrade the armour? Damn sight better than the jury rigged hilux!

Your about 1 month to late they have been in theatre longer than you think and yes they have all the latess LAV upgrades direct from our allies thanks to the Stryker & Canadian LAV 3 casualties. How ever there are still things that will remain OPSEC to the general public.

CD

 

[lima25218]

Thanks for the heads up, left the army along time ago, glad to see the govt sorting some things out. Like the idea of the 120mm/81mm mix mentioned earlier but doubtfull that they would give us any field arty systems bigger than 105mm, they were trying for 155mm when i was 1st in and nothing doin, mind you that was in Lange's time, we didn't even have enough blanks for training. New 105's with ERP sounds plausible.

I also hope they increase their javelin holdings, 24 posts just doesnt seem like enough. Does anyone know how they are dispersed?

 

[htbrst]

Focus on politics - future for the armed services

Hi all,

I caught this programme on the way home last week - about 20 minutes of interviews with the defence minister and the oppositions defence spokesman (plus a few others) regarding the future of the armed services.

Plenty of dicussion but no real meat - its election year so plenty of vaugeness, no concrete promises and quite bit of electioneering.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2487804/focus-on-politics-for-21-april-2011.asx

Main focus was Civilianisation, the merging of Linton/Ohakea and equipment replacement - (Frigates are on the list for ~2030), and of course cutting costs. I thought it would be interesting for people who want an insight into what that the main political parties are thinking, and its also the first time i;ve heard the labour defense spokeman actually saying something about defence

 

[Hoffy]

Hi all,

I caught this programme on the way home last week - about 20 minutes of interviews with the defence minister and the oppositions defence spokesman (plus a few others) regarding the future of the armed services.

Plenty of dicussion but no real meat - its election year so plenty of vaugeness, no concrete promises and quite bit of electioneering.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2487804/focus-on-politics-for-21-april-2011.asx

Main focus was Civilianisation, the merging of Linton/Ohakea and equipment replacement - (Frigates are on the list for ~2030), and of course cutting costs. I thought it would be interesting for people who want an insight into what that the main political parties are thinking, and its also the first time i;ve heard the labour defense spokeman actually saying something about defence

Just listened to the radio link broadcast. Interesting.
I got the impression that things seem to be drifting along a little bit without any strategic focus.
The spokesman for the NZ Greens was happy to shutdown the NZ Navy ANZAC Frigate operation????
Dear oh dear.
It's all about having money & focus I guess.

 

[Cadredave]

Hi all,

I caught this programme on the way home last week - about 20 minutes of interviews with the defence minister and the oppositions defence spokesman (plus a few others) regarding the future of the armed services.

Plenty of dicussion but no real meat - its election year so plenty of vaugeness, no concrete promises and quite bit of electioneering.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2487804/focus-on-politics-for-21-april-2011.asx

Main focus was Civilianisation, the merging of Linton/Ohakea and equipment replacement - (Frigates are on the list for ~2030), and of course cutting costs. I thought it would be interesting for people who want an insight into what that the main political parties are thinking, and its also the first time i;ve heard the labour defense spokeman actually saying something about defence

Yea good to hear the pollies come out with the same oh same oh, mind you dont know what planet the Minister is on havent done drill in years thanks to Operations:hehe had the CDF & CA brief Linton on civilianisation major major changes coming in the next 3 - 4 months with a very different NZDF by the end of the year, as he said he can reach into all parts of the NZDF from the rear to the front and not just the VFM plus the one major change now is he has the power to remove single service chiefs if they dont toe the line:smash keep an eye out for Force structure changes in the Army followed by the rest of the NZDF.

CD

 

[RegR]

Would be good to see some 'excess' cheifs roll instead of the usual indians, I guess since they are the ones who make the decisions their jobs are always going to be made important, who else could sit in offices making up policies, visions, catch phrases and figureing out pay grades only to leave the desk for cushy deployments.

VFM would be less high paying office chairs in command slots and more better paid boots in the feild doing the actual work, way too many layers of 'leaders' and less and less regulars to do the actual job.

Will be interesting to see this whole civilianisation project pan out, you have to tread a whole lot different with civis compared to military people even if only in NZ.

 

[Cadredave]

Would be good to see some 'excess' cheifs roll instead of the usual indians, I guess since they are the ones who make the decisions their jobs are always going to be made important, who else could sit in offices making up policies, visions, catch phrases and figureing out pay grades only to leave the desk for cushy deployments.

VFM would be less high paying office chairs in command slots and more better paid boots in the feild doing the actual work, way too many layers of 'leaders' and less and less regulars to do the actual job.

Will be interesting to see this whole civilianisation project pan out, you have to tread a whole lot different with civis compared to military people even if only in NZ.

Hey Reg
The numbers of ranks across the Army to civilianise is huge, 22 Lt Col, 65 WO1, 23 WO2 and the list goes on but if we look at Lt Col and WO1 rank ref pay at $ 80K - $100K + that is quite alot of money to be returnd back to the purse and this is Army only, CDF has big plans like he said to us if he doesnt do it then Govt will and we know the outcome if Govt gets involved.

CD

 

[t68]

Hey Reg
The numbers of ranks across the Army to civilianise is huge, 22 Lt Col, 65 WO1, 23 WO2 and the list goes on but if we look at Lt Col and WO1 rank ref pay at $ 80K - $100K + that is quite alot of money to be returnd back to the purse and this is Army only, CDF has big plans like he said to us if he doesnt do it then Govt will and we know the outcome if Govt gets involved.

CD

The work load is still there if it’s taken by a defence member or by a public servant, that same money on wages is still going to be there just not from the defence budget i suppose, makes it look like they are saving money when in fact it has just been moved. Defence or public service the office jobs still end up bloated in the end.

 

[Cadredave]

The work load is still there if it’s taken by a defence member or by a public servant, that same money on wages is still going to be there just not from the defence budget i suppose, makes it look like they are saving money when in fact it has just been moved. Defence or public service the office jobs still end up bloated in the end.

No civilians are a hell of a lot cheaper, were talking about positions that do not need to be filled by a military person a couple of examples are PTI (Physical Training Instructors), dentists, dentist hygenists, MSI (Military studies institute) 2nd & 3rd line logistics jobs filled by an NZDF person who's sole rational has nothing to do with deployments or Operations. Treasury & Govt have said money saved by defence will be keep by defence there nothing bloated about the defence vote whats bloated is thirty years of the three services paddling there own waka's in different directions as CDF said to all of us he will not let another capability disappear if we dont change ourselves then Govt will and you will see more capabilities vanish forever.

CD

 

[RegR]

Hey Reg
The numbers of ranks across the Army to civilianise is huge, 22 Lt Col, 65 WO1, 23 WO2 and the list goes on but if we look at Lt Col and WO1 rank ref pay at $ 80K - $100K + that is quite alot of money to be returnd back to the purse and this is Army only, CDF has big plans like he said to us if he doesnt do it then Govt will and we know the outcome if Govt gets involved.

CD

Hey CD, yip that is alot of savings, guess the ones left will definately have to pick up their game to stay off the chopping block. So I guess no new toys will be bought in the near term and hopefully no current ones scrapped to save a few peanuts, would hate to see the forces going backwards again.

 

[Cadredave]

Hey CD, yip that is alot of savings, guess the ones left will definately have to pick up their game to stay off the chopping block. So I guess no new toys will be bought in the near term and hopefully no current ones scrapped to save a few peanuts, would hate to see the forces going backwards again.

Hey Reg,
Savings will be spent on the projects already in the LTDP, Logistics vehicles, ANZAC Frigate upgrade etc, im very optimistic about these changes unlike the slash & burn cuts in the nineties NZDF from what I can see are all working together to enhance what we have got and to upgrade to something better in the future, mind you still early days the finer detail will come out in June - July with Army moving to a new configuration by December, what that is we wont know until July and I will only be second guessing at this stage.

CD

 

[Todjaeger]

Hey Reg,
Savings will be spent on the projects already in the LTDP, Logistics vehicles, ANZAC Frigate upgrade etc, im very optimistic about these changes unlike the slash & burn cuts in the nineties NZDF from what I can see are all working together to enhance what we have got and to upgrade to something better in the future, mind you still early days the finer detail will come out in June - July with Army moving to a new configuration by December, what that is we wont know until July and I will only be second guessing at this stage.

CD

Glad to hear that any 'savings' are staying with Defence and not going back into the general coffers. Hopefully some of the items from the LTDP will get a 'bump' in priority. The LWT replacement programme comes to mind pretty much immediately.

As an aside, very early on in this thread, there had been discussion on light armoured vehicles for the NZDF. Given the current NZLAV deployment to Afghanistan, would there be interest in going over some of that again?

-Cheers

 

[RubiconNZ]

Speaking of the LAV, thank God they finally sent them over, they have paid off already.

TVNZ Kiwis on Afghan Patrol hit by IED

No injuries and the LAV is damaged but recoverable, as no one was hurt on this occasion I feel comfortable with saying that this is a win for the NZ Army, who can argue on their importance now, not to mention keeping those excess to needs as spares.

 

[RegR]

Speaking of the LAV, thank God they finally sent them over, they have paid off already.

TVNZ Kiwis on Afghan Patrol hit by IED

No injuries and the LAV is damaged but recoverable, as no one was hurt on this occasion I feel comfortable with saying that this is a win for the NZ Army, who can argue on their importance now, not to mention keeping those excess to needs as spares.

Totally agree, It would make sense to keep the 15 excess LAV in storage as attrition spares now that they are deployed in numbers. They have not even been in Bamyan long and are already earning their keep.

Not only IEDs but the extra wear and tear from the harsh enviroment could cause at least a few losses over the next couple of years so cannot afford to be short in the future.

I think Canada are a good comparison with their operational losses/degredation of LAV as to what we might expect, may well take years off the life of the deployed platforms that will have to be made up somewhere along the line and at what cost.

 

[steve33]

Speaking of the LAV, thank God they finally sent them over, they have paid off already.

TVNZ Kiwis on Afghan Patrol hit by IED

No injuries and the LAV is damaged but recoverable, as no one was hurt on this occasion I feel comfortable with saying that this is a win for the NZ Army, who can argue on their importance now, not to mention keeping those excess to needs as spares.

They say the fighting season in Afganistan has just started the LAVS are going to be put to good use it might shut up a few members of the public who bleat on about how they are a waste of money and never used.

I hope the government puts a contingent of SAS permanently in Bamiyan Province to go on offence and keep the people laying the IED on the back foot.

 

[Cadredave]

Totally agree, It would make sense to keep the 15 excess LAV in storage as attrition spares now that they are deployed in numbers. They have not even been in Bamyan long and are already earning their keep.

Not only IEDs but the extra wear and tear from the harsh enviroment could cause at least a few losses over the next couple of years so cannot afford to be short in the future.

I think Canada are a good comparison with their operational losses/degredation of LAV as to what we might expect, may well take years off the life of the deployed platforms that will have to be made up somewhere along the line and at what cost.

Good points totally agree Canada & the US have been going thru there vehicles alot of LAVs due to attrition I hope we can convince the bean counters to keep those spares for attrition its early days and already we have gone thru 1 vehicle.

 

[dave_kiwi]

NZ Def UAV Activity - sort of

While browsing another defence news site - an article about the Heron UAVs Australia is deploying in Afghanistan, I noticed the following:

quote: " ...The Heron team comprises 28 Australian and New Zealand Defence Force personnel. The tri-service unit has logged more than 4600 total flight hours since beginning operations in January last year " end quote.

Complete article here (the source): Media Release - Department of Defence

Interesting - seems that NZ Def is quietly keeping touch with UAV operations ....maybe a sign of things to come - long term ?

 

[ngatimozart]

Just listened to the radio link broadcast. Interesting.
I got the impression that things seem to be drifting along a little bit without any strategic focus.
The spokesman for the NZ Greens was happy to shutdown the NZ Navy ANZAC Frigate operation????
Dear oh dear.
It's all about having money & focus I guess.

That would be about right. The Greens Defence spokesman is Keith Locke and he is very anti military. Interestingly enough he was on the TV news the other night complaining about Police moves to make firearms more readily available to front line police, saying it would lead to increased armed criminals. He retires from Parliament in November at then end of this three year term. I can never prove it, but IMHO, he may have be a prime mover in Helen Clarks unilateral decision to axe the RNZAF Air Combat Wing in 2001. At the time I called it the castration of the RNZAF.

Keith Locke is a pacifist and it runs in his family. His mother was Elsie Locke, a well known and eloquent pacifist, and he learnt his values from her but has taken a harder line. I believe that his views are towards the more radical or "militant" (I know - an oxymoron in this context) end of pacifism. Whilst I respect his right too express and expound his views, I do not follow the logic or validity of them because I find them extreme and lacking in flexibility.

He has had quite a lot of input into the public debate on defence over the last 20 years or so, especially since the formation of the Green Party and it's entrance into Parliament under MMP. What will be interesting, after his departure from parliament, at the end of the current term, will be if any change occurs in the Greens defence policy. Since Keith Locke has dominated the Greens defence portfolio for so long, his departure possibly might see a change in policy, possibly a softening in attitude towards NZDF. Since NZDF, especially the RNZN does work with DOC and fisheries that could be seen as a positive with regard to the Greens. Also if memory serves me correctly, Locke is the last member in the Greens of the old guard. The current leaders and younger MP's appear to be more pragmatic.

With regard to focus. When Labour was in power from 1999 - 2008 the Greens were a coalition partner for a large majority of the time. Hence their influence upon defence policy. With the likes of Keith Locke and Sue Bradford they had a substantial left wing leaning, far more than Helen Clarks Labour Party. The Labour Party economically was slightly right wing, but in its foreign policy and non economic ideology, left wing. So this would account for the dramatic change in foreign policy, with an anti US bent that occurred during the 1999 - 2008 period, especially during the early part. NZDF was seen as a low priority and was not really given any guidance from government, so it lost focus because it did not know what it's core mission was going to be. It was changing from a ANZUS force to a peace keeping force, but one without a defined focus. I would postulate that this was because the Labour - Green - NZ First Coalition governments, could not decide what their foreign & defence policies and focuses would be.

For the Mods. This isn't intended as a political discussion just an explanation of who the Green Party defence spokesman is, his background and an analysis of his influence on defence policy.