NZDF General discussion thread

ngatimozart

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Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Here is a link to the Defense News website graphic of Osama Bin Ladens compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan http://www.armytimes.com/xml/news/2...nd-050211/050211-abbottabad-compound-800b.JPG

This is also the link to the article that contained it Painstaking Intel Led U.S. Forces to Bin Laden Compound - Defense News

This link is a story stating that the US Senate Armed Services Committee chairman claiming that this kill requires a quicker US pull out from Afghan Levin: Bin Laden Death Underlines Need for Afghan Pullout - Defense News

The $1 million question is what will be the reaction and how will it affect NZ? Short term I think Al Quaeda are going to have to strike back if they want to retain any credibility. Long term, it is hard to say. Some journalists are saying that the uprisings in the Middle East are marginalising the extreme elements of Islam and that the vast majority of moderates are now making their voice heard. But I disagree to a point. My thinking is that the uprisings are political not religious and whilst the likes of Al Quaeda and Hamas are seen in the West as political organisations I think amongst Islam they portray themselves as undertaking a religious fight, not a political one.

For NZ the apparent US keenness to withdraw may quicken and we don't want to be left high and dry. Whilst we have a different culture to the US in how we deal with people, in reality we are now not wanted there. The Afghan president has been saying that for at least the last 6 months. However down the track we could be able to do business there after things have calmed down. We did with Vietnam before other western nations. Long term for the NZDF we now have to look very seriously at having an exit strategy on the front burner ready to go because the US could leave sooner than previously envisaged.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
The $1 million question is what will be the reaction and how will it affect NZ? Short term I think Al Quaeda are going to have to strike back if they want to retain any credibility. Long term, it is hard to say. Some journalists are saying that the uprisings in the Middle East are marginalising the extreme elements of Islam and that the vast majority of moderates are now making their voice heard. But I disagree to a point. My thinking is that the uprisings are political not religious and whilst the likes of Al Quaeda and Hamas are seen in the West as political organisations I think amongst Islam they portray themselves as undertaking a religious fight, not a political one.
I'm also thinking that the other reasons for the social uprisings (and why the "moderates are now making their voice heard") is the internet and "social media" revolutions which have given the average person on the street (in the ME etc) better access to info and the means to disseminate info to the world via cellphone/cams & tweets etc etc (think the Iranian protests of a couple of years ago to the recent protests in various countries now etc).

This social media type revolution is something we in the west take for granted, but for these other countries where their traditional media is restricted, this new cheap and accessible technology appears to me to be a game changer. (And there's no reason why when we think of the growth of the likes of China challenging the traditional western/US in coming years, that the likes of China may find its rising power status tempered somewhat from dissent from within due to these technological revolutions etc. Not only China of course, any restricted country where technology is available to the "people". But maybe not North Korea then because of their severe restrictions). We even see in A'Stan, communication technologies are being installed, so here's hoping this will (unintentionally) give moderate people some comeback over radicalism etc.

(Perhaps rather than drop leaflets out of aircraft onto the population below like in the past, perhaps ISAF should be dropping pre-paid cellphones over the countryside to up-tech the communities! Would be cheap surely relative to the occupation costs and think about the propaganda value ie would give the youth something to do & occupy their time rather than pick up a AK-47) :D Use 'em also to report suspicious activity and similarly track them if being used for suspicious activity!

As to Afghanistan/WoT etc, the future situation will be interesting. Although security analysts used to suggest the west will still in there for the long haul eg 10-20 years, this may not necessarily change although maybe fewer numbers will be needed. But it seems Pakistan is the key (eg with their influence vis-a-vis Afghanistan/India etc), so the next few months will be interesting in terms of the US-Pakistan relationship post OBL killing and thus flow on effects. Just my 2cents which may or may not mean anything!

In terms of NZDF in A'Stan, are you referring to NZ not being needed by the A'Stan Govt? NZG seemed to be saying recently than Bamiyan PRT was not being criticised by Karzi (when he singled PRT's out), so we'll be there to 2014 etc?
 
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recce.k1

Well-Known Member
NZDF Statement of Intent released

Well worth a read now that the recent capability purchases have entered service and are being employed etc. Amongst the information appears to be NZDF's timelines for new acquisitions (pages 32, 45, 46 etc).

*2011? New advanced pilot training aircraft
*2012 Minister bringing forward the ANZAC self-defence upgrade & AOR replacement options.
*Then out to 2016? - Seasprite upgrade or replacement, a rolling renewal of the land transport fleet, a land command and control system, and a replacement littoral warfare support ship.
http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/public-docs/2011/soi/nzdf-soi-2011-14.pdf

In other news 2 NZSAS troopers received moderate injuries in the Kabul Intercontinental Hotel attack overnight.
Radio New Zealand : News : World : Two New Zealand soldiers wounded after attack on Kabul hotel
NZDF won't be happy with Radio NZ publishing picture without blanked out faces presumably (judging by similarity of uniform & kit published 18 months ago) ....

Edit: Radio NZ have changed the pic to show Afghan soldiers.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This is the NZDF military personnel lay offs as released on the Stuff website 29/6/2011.
300 military personnel made redundant | Stuff.co.nz

No’s impacted by location

Camp/ base/ location No. of personnel
Auckland 4
Burnham (ChCh) 28
Christchurch 1
Devonport (Auck) 45
Dunedin 5
Gisborne 1
Hobsonville (Auck) 4
Linton (Palm Nth) 20
Massey University 1
Napier 2
Ohakea 21
Tauranga 1
Trentham 70
Waiouru 28
Wanganui 1
Wellington 38
Whenuapai (Auck) 28
Woodbourne (Blenheim) 7
Overseas (not deployed) 3
Total 308

No’s impacted by rank

Officer/Other Ranks Rank (E) Total
Officers
COL (E) 2
LTCOL (E) 14
MAJ (E) 61
CAPT (E) 4
Officers Total 81
Other Ranks
WO (E) 1
SSGT (E) 51
SGT (E) 32
CPL (E) 10
LCPL (E)* 22
PTE (E) 2
OTHER RANKS Total 227

Grand Total 308

*This is an Army only rank so I can only presume that they have included the RNZN Able rate and the RNZAF Leading Aircraftman rate in this rank.
 
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steve33

Member
Well worth a read now that the recent capability purchases have entered service and are being employed etc. Amongst the information appears to be NZDF's timelines for new acquisitions (pages 32, 45, 46 etc).

*2011? New advanced pilot training aircraft
*2012 Minister bringing forward the ANZAC self-defence upgrade & AOR replacement options.
*Then out to 2016? - Seasprite upgrade or replacement, a rolling renewal of the land transport fleet, a land command and control system, and a replacement littoral warfare support ship.
http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/public-docs/2011/soi/nzdf-soi-2011-14.pdf

In other news 2 NZSAS troopers received moderate injuries in the Kabul Intercontinental Hotel attack overnight.
Radio New Zealand : News : World : Two New Zealand soldiers wounded after attack on Kabul hotel
NZDF won't be happy with Radio NZ publishing picture without blanked out faces presumably (judging by similarity of uniform & kit published 18 months ago) ....

Edit: Radio NZ have changed the pic to show Afghan soldiers (but the original can be found via online searches).
The SAS need to learn to cover there faces in public they are operating in the world of mass media you have people with cameras everywhere.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Might be hard to do when regrouping after a fire fight and getting stitched up.

Perhaps the Afghan Police need to make a better effort cordoning off the public, as what would likely happen elsewhere ... but that's kinda hard too in the confusion and when the press are hanging out in the same public areas (and can use zoom lenses too etc).

Urban & assymetrical warfare ain't an easy affair.

All the best for the troopers recovery.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
This is the NZDF military personnel lay offs as released on the Stuff website 29/6/2011.
I feel I can ask you this as a serious question. Without getting into a debate on this mutli-faceted issue itself, I'm wondering whether there are some unintended consequences bubbling under for the govt?

In NZ society there has been a shift in public opinion to support the NZDF over the years (despite the usual nay-sayer players but even the media can be positive (even in amongst the occassional negative publicity eg Metro/journo "expose" etc)).

Labour's trying to pull out the punches over these lay-off's (but unfortunately for them can't seem to get any traction ... in fact on anything, over the last three years, they're in an almost death spiral in terms of public tolerance for some reason), but mud sticks and people have short memories, plus lay-off's are lay-off's and I suspect this govt will be tainted somewhat. Eventually this may not bode well (for the govt) especially seeing there will be another couple of rounds of lay-off's in the next year or so, extending the uncertainty and negative defence publicity. Especially if flaws come out over time with structure (for example security, must be somewhat compromised, as civilian support will be in less secure downtown public service type rented accomodation. Not neccessarily on bases if more base accomodation is required for the "sharp end." Cheaper to rent elsewhere than build on base, unless absolutely required for the "sharp-end" on base etc). Over time these things might bite the govt's bum so to speak, especially in terms of public opinion.

Perhaps I'm also trying to say the govt, defence planners and consultants need to factor in other aspects or criteria (can't think of the right words here) that can't just be measured in monetary terms, but could have a seriously adverse effect when enabled or enacted. (Like we have had with natural disasters recently, or perhaps one day a security incident etc). If someone can crack this, it might help the NZDF out, seeing they are constantly scrutinised, and rules and accountabilities applied, as if they were a measureable civilian or commercial entity.

I feel so much fat has been cut away over the last 20 years in defence that they are having to start cutting into the muscle nowadays (eg esp. ACF), in order to continually satisfy the bean counters. NZDF should be growing capability (like ADF), which ok they are but to a smaller extent (hard not to compared to 10-15 years ago) but as they grow they also shrink eg more is being done with less. Although they say things are being done smarter, yes they are, but still with less, as in less numbers.

This isn't the Cold War/ANZUS posturing and practicing, nor is it the benign 1990's, these are the times of big deployments (eg since Vietnam) and as Govt has said in DWP, the era of enduring warfare. But defence force size has been reducing.

The risk identified in DWP is defence not being sustainable, if the funding/force mix isn't right (sure, trying to be corrected but only ever so much or slight that something unexpected could cause problems). Really at the end of the day Defence need better support .. and funding. (Funding is increasing eg 2%? - better than reducing but still not enough to keep up with inflation nor the regular periods where big reinvestments are needed eg periodic capability replacements).
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I feel I can ask you this as a serious question. Without getting into a debate on this mutli-faceted issue itself, I'm wondering whether there are some unintended consequences bubbling under for the govt?
recce.k1 I'm away until middle of next week to a place where I don't have internet access so I'll answer when I get back & have a chance to think on it. You raise some very interesting and very important questions.
nm
 

titanuim

New Member
I think the RNZN navy should expand to 8 ANZAC frigates.this would enable them to reduce their reliablty onn foreign military aid in time of war. Also the air force should get about 50 eurofighter typhoons for air defence and air support.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think the RNZN navy should expand to 8 ANZAC frigates.this would enable them to reduce their reliablty onn foreign military aid in time of war. Also the air force should get about 50 eurofighter typhoons for air defence and air support.
Three problems.
1. How are we going to crew 8 ANZAC frigates when the RNZN has enough trouble crewing the vessels it has at the moment?

2. Where is the RNZAF going to get a minimum 100 Typhoon & combat rated aircrew from?

3. How are we going to pay for all of this kit and ongoing costs through term of service life?

A little basic realism would be appreciated.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think the RNZN navy should expand to 8 ANZAC frigates.this would enable them to reduce their reliablty onn foreign military aid in time of war. Also the air force should get about 50 eurofighter typhoons for air defence and air support.
Welcome to Defencetalk because it can be an education for those who are new to the dicussion of defence matters. It can also be a brutal place when one is required to substantiate their opinions.

ngatimozart has raised some good questions for you to either reply to or just ponder. Before you do I invite you to read through the many pages of Kiwi Defence writings here on Deftalk as you will find it informative and interesting as well as give you an insight into the knowledge of some of the people and professionals who comment on this site. There are weeks of reading for you to enjoy and amuse yourself with.

In the meantime also read the rules thread and also I should mention that you are most welcome to post an introduction about yourself on the intro thread.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I feel I can ask you this as a serious question. Without getting into a debate on this mutli-faceted issue itself, I'm wondering whether there are some unintended consequences bubbling under for the govt?

In NZ society there has been a shift in public opinion to support the NZDF over the years (despite the usual nay-sayer players but even the media can be positive (even in amongst the occassional negative publicity eg Metro/journo "expose" etc)).

Labour's trying to pull out the punches over these lay-off's (but unfortunately for them can't seem to get any traction ... in fact on anything, over the last three years, they're in an almost death spiral in terms of public tolerance for some reason), but mud sticks and people have short memories, plus lay-off's are lay-off's and I suspect this govt will be tainted somewhat. Eventually this may not bode well (for the govt) especially seeing there will be another couple of rounds of lay-off's in the next year or so, extending the uncertainty and negative defence publicity. Especially if flaws come out over time with structure (for example security, must be somewhat compromised, as civilian support will be in less secure downtown public service type rented accomodation. Not neccessarily on bases if more base accomodation is required for the "sharp end." Cheaper to rent elsewhere than build on base, unless absolutely required for the "sharp-end" on base etc). Over time these things might bite the govt's bum so to speak, especially in terms of public opinion.
The court of public opinion is extremely fickle, especially in an election year. Metro is an Auckland based magazine and is basically read by Aucklanders but since approx 1/3 of NZ population lives within Auckland, opinion there can carry a modicum of weight. IIRC it was a cabal of Aucklanders (Clark & co) who got rid of the ACF for ideological reasons, rather than the economic reasons given. Look at the costs since 2001 for A4's and AerMacchi's, for which RNZAF / NZDF have had no tangible, or intangible benefit. So IMHO it is a bit rich of Labour to do any public posturing over NZDF capability cut backs. Granted they bought new kit for NZ Army and RNZN, with some questionable (fiscally) upgrades for RNZAF kit. I think it will be interesting to see what happens in next years budget with regard to NZDF. On present polling National could govern outright on their own, if election was held today. However the Rugby World Cup is between now and the election, and the performance of the All Blacks, could have an impact upon the makeup of parliament post election night. It has be known for the fortunes of NZ elections to be swayed by the results of All Black tests close to election days.

Perhaps I'm also trying to say the govt, defence planners and consultants need to factor in other aspects or criteria (can't think of the right words here) that can't just be measured in monetary terms, but could have a seriously adverse effect when enabled or enacted. (Like we have had with natural disasters recently, or perhaps one day a security incident etc). If someone can crack this, it might help the NZDF out, seeing they are constantly scrutinised, and rules and accountabilities applied, as if they were a measureable civilian or commercial entity.
My own personal view is that sometimes too many consultants can get involved in a study, which leads to loss of focus, or muddies the waters, creating structural and corporate confusion. I think this is what has happened in defence, during the 4th Labour government of 1999 - 2008, combined with the dramatic ideological shift, during the first 6 or 7 years of the Clark government. It created a paradigm that sowed confusion, in both NZ foreign and defence policy, with seemingly large, almost random, swings in policy.

NZDF has had a plethora of consultants, States Services civil servants and Treasury, go over it and through it like the proverbial dose. IMHO some of those with agendas, that would not have been conducive to the continual betterment of NZDF. There is also the current right wing postmodernist economic philosophy, that everything has to run like a business. Whilst this is applicable to a lot of government entities, others like NZDF do not strictly fit the mould or criteria of a business. How does NZDF measure profit and loss? Do they list the number of enemy killed as a profit? A seemingly silly analogy but a logically valid argument.

I feel so much fat has been cut away over the last 20 years in defence that they are having to start cutting into the muscle nowadays (eg esp. ACF), in order to continually satisfy the bean counters. NZDF should be growing capability (like ADF), which ok they are but to a smaller extent (hard not to compared to 10-15 years ago) but as they grow they also shrink eg more is being done with less. Although they say things are being done smarter, yes they are, but still with less, as in less numbers.
I agree. They have now cut into the muscle and NZDF has been well and truly cut to the quick. IMHO it has got to a very dangerous point where basic capability and response is threatened. They have no replacements for the front line troops. For example for the RNZN, the RNZNVR was the backup, but now the RNZNVR has no boats, so very miniscule amounts of sea training is done. In my time we had an IPC and we got sea time and a good basic seamanship training.

This isn't the Cold War/ANZUS posturing and practicing, nor is it the benign 1990's, these are the times of big deployments (eg since Vietnam) and as Govt has said in DWP, the era of enduring warfare. But defence force size has been reducing.

The risk identified in DWP is defence not being sustainable, if the funding/force mix isn't right (sure, trying to be corrected but only ever so much or slight that something unexpected could cause problems). Really at the end of the day Defence need better support .. and funding. (Funding is increasing eg 2%? - better than reducing but still not enough to keep up with inflation nor the regular periods where big reinvestments are needed eg periodic capability replacements).
My thoughts exactly and well put. Here are my views. NZDF needs a one off basic recapitalisation for new kit as follows.

RNZAF:
Replacements for P3, C130 and B757. This has been previously discussed as to kit and mix. I would suggest that NZDF start the process now because it is something that takes time, so needs a good lead in.
Reestablishment of ACF. Basic flight and combat training done with RAAF. My choice of aircraft would be Typhoon because per unit cost lower than Shornet and more agile & capable than Shornet. RAF has demonstrated air-to-ground capability in Libya.

RNZN. 4 x ANZAC replacement preferably with ANZAC II to same specs as RAN. 4 x small boast for RNZNVR divisions to do basic seamanship and gunnery skills etc. Endeavour replaced with something that is new, mission capable and fully IMO certified. 2 maybe 3 extra OPV's of same class as present with better armament for EEZ patrol and anti piracy ops. Upgrade present OPV's to new ships capabilities.

NZ Army. Some better AAA like 20 or 25mm. Personally I would like the Steyr 5.56mm to be replaced with a 7.62mm weapon. I just think that the better punch and reach of the 7.62mm outweighs any perceived advantages of the 5.56mm.

NZDF. Combine NZDF and Ministry of Defence. Savings would be gained in one operation instead of the duplication in the present two. It used to be one. If they want to keep NZDF at arms length then that can be done within one organisation with CDF still directly reporting to PM and Minister. The Permanent Secretary would just have to build a bridge and get over it. Then ongoing funding has to be 2% GDP per annum adjusted for inflation. A rider has to be attached that if GDP falls funding cannot be dropped below the previous years.

But the big problem is that is how are we going to pay for all of this? The poli's will wriggle and squirm to avoid doing anything like this because of the cost when they don't see it as a priority until the proverbial hits the fan. By then it will be too late. Unfortunately those who don't learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. IMHO I would think it would make good economic and fiscal sense to make one outlay on new kit than spending large sums on that which is well past it's use by date. But then I am not a poli.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Key may welcome marines back to NZ | Stuff.co.nz

A link to a Stuff article that appeared today about the PMs visit to the US next week. He appears to be keen in pushing NZDF and IMHO a visit by US Marines etc., would be good. I note that when in India he volunteered the RNZN to help India with its' anti piracy patrols in the Indian Ocean. My question is was that just symbolic or a genuine offer? If it is a genuine offer, I hope that the NZG is going to supply the RNZN with funding and capabilities to carry out this new tasking.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
So IMHO it is a bit rich of Labour to do any public posturing over NZDF capability cut backs. Granted they bought new kit for NZ Army and RNZN, with some questionable (fiscally) upgrades for RNZAF kit. I think it will be interesting to see what happens in next years budget with regard to NZDF.
Agree about Labour attack on National defence policy. At least National trying to maintain the front line. IMHO the Clark regime did more damage to defence than all the previous governments combined since the Lange government. Hopefully the government will realize that the 300m internal savings they're looking for is a bridge to far. However I would say that while National has moved to fixed some of the problems left by Labour, based on past history I wouldn't get my hopes up. Most (ANZAC, LAV's etc) major defence contracts over the last thirty years have been placed by Labour. IMO National conceded defence policy to Labour years ago.

My own personal view is that sometimes too many consultants can get involved in a study, which leads to loss of focus, or muddies the waters, creating structural and corporate confusion. I think this is what has happened in defence, during the 4th Labour government of 1999 - 2008, combined with the dramatic ideological shift, during the first 6 or 7 years of the Clark government. It created a paradigm that sowed confusion, in both NZ foreign and defence policy, with seemingly large, almost random, swings in policy.
Agree. While some civilian concepts can be readily applied to Defence some like the Capital Charge is a perversion of what the Charge was originally intended for, if my accounting texts are correct.

For example for the RNZN, the RNZNVR was the backup, but now the RNZNVR has no boats, so very miniscule amounts of sea training is done. In my time we had an IPC and we got sea time and a good basic seamanship training.
I'd love to see the VR with new boats but it will never happen. Firstly it was clear from the Defence 2000 review that there was no support for the VR in the MCM roll. That effectively left the VR without clear role. One I thought we did well in. I think there is a general lack of political support for the VR or naval support.

My thoughts exactly and well put. Here are my views. NZDF needs a one off basic recapitalisation for new kit as follows.

RNZAF:
Replacements for P3, C130 and B757. This has been previously discussed as to kit and mix. I would suggest that NZDF start the process now because it is something that takes time, so needs a good lead in.
Reestablishment of ACF. Basic flight and combat training done with RAAF. My choice of aircraft would be Typhoon because per unit cost lower than Shornet and more agile & capable than Shornet. RAF has demonstrated air-to-ground capability in Libya.

RNZN. 4 x ANZAC replacement preferably with ANZAC II to same specs as RAN. 4 x small boast for RNZNVR divisions to do basic seamanship and gunnery skills etc. Endeavour replaced with something that is new, mission capable and fully IMO certified. 2 maybe 3 extra OPV's of same class as present with better armament for EEZ patrol and anti piracy ops. Upgrade present OPV's to new ships capabilities.

NZ Army. Some better AAA like 20 or 25mm. Personally I would like the Steyr 5.56mm to be replaced with a 7.62mm weapon. I just think that the better punch and reach of the 7.62mm outweighs any perceived advantages of the 5.56mm.

NZDF. Combine NZDF and Ministry of Defence. Savings would be gained in one operation instead of the duplication in the present two. It used to be one. If they want to keep NZDF at arms length then that can be done within one organisation with CDF still directly reporting to PM and Minister. The Permanent Secretary would just have to build a bridge and get over it. Then ongoing funding has to be 2% GDP per annum adjusted for inflation. A rider has to be attached that if GDP falls funding cannot be dropped below the previous years.
My views on re-capitalization are as follows:
- RNZAF: Agree with the need to start P3, C130 etc replacements now. However I would probably go for JAS39 rather than Typhoon. Main reasons for that are lower operating costs, able to operate from limited runways - how many airfields in NZ could Typhoon operate from?
- Navy: I would transfer Otago and Wellington to the Littoral Warfare role and purchase three more capable OPV (76mm, 25mm Sea RAM and modular capabilities) for the low level tasks like EEZ, Priacy Duties etc. Because of that I'd only buy three frigates. Both would operate on 1 Deployed, 1 in NZ and 1 rotating through refit/training etc. If the VR got anything it would be a lake class which all four units would have to man on an ongoing basis with say (150 days at sea). The vessel would rotate home ports to allow maintenance skills to be maintained.
Army: Leave AA as is with Mistral. I think the emphasis needs to be on developing / maintaining 3 RF Battalion groups with 2 supporting TF Battalion groups. While I like the 7.62 I think given the weight with body armour and other equipment now carried I think the restriction would be the the amount of ammo you could carry.
Defence Overall - I agree re the merger but why have a sec of defence. South Africa got rid of these.
 
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t68

Well-Known Member
Nagtimozart, I agree with the need for a recapalitstion program for New Zealand defence but it will need a direct funding increase up to 4% of GDP over 5 years then scaled back to 2% of continued funding to maintain levels of training and maintenance and replacement kit in the 20/30 for future years.

RNZAF

I believe you are correct in saying that P3, C130 and B757 are in dire need of direct replacement within the 8 years and long lead time needed to replace and gear up and training on the new equipment. My belief is that RNZAF need 4 P8 Poseidon MPA working with UAV assets, H model Hercules replaced with the J model, B757 replaced with Airbus A321which Air New Zealand can maintain on behalf of RNZAF. If New Zealand can afford to it should tie in with ADF buy’s it is not only for cost saving with a larger number of platforms being sort, but also a maintenance/spares issues. Regarding the ACF if it was to be reestablished should go with the 24 F/A18F Super Hornet which would be more suited to the maritime strike role over the Typhoon also the Typhoon will be an orphan in the Pacific. With the RAAF operating Super Hornet to around the 2025ish, RNZAF will have a ready supply of spare parts in the greater Pacific area with the USN who will operate out till 2035, other option is an F15SG Strike Eagle with a partnership with the RSAF.

http://www.deagel.com/Strike-and-Fighter-Aircraft/F-15SG_a000535007.aspx

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/index.htm

RNZN

Agree a buy in with the RAN future frigate is a must with 3 the minimum, 4 the most logical solution with 2 being available at all times. Endeavour replacement IMHO should be 2x Berlin Class replenishment ships, she is considerably larger than Endeavour but far more versatile with a capacity of 9330 tons of POL and fresh water and 550 tons of mixed cargo, spots for 2 MRH90 plus hanger and 43 patient hospital ward. Even though Canterbury has only been in service a short time, now is the time to be thinking of her replacement, only having one and what we have seen with the Australian fiasco with the amphibious ship and their versatility, coupled with NZ commitments to the smaller South Pacific Islands NZ has a requirement for 2/3 ships. My preference is for an enlarged Endurance class LPD with a max displacement of 12/15000t the money needed to reengineer to increase her size might not be worth it when you could get a Dokdo class LPD at 18000t displacement might be a tad large but with a crew of 300 might not be doable with the size of the RNZN, make these a true tri service asset along the line of a Canberra class it will place NZ defence force with a versatile asset capable of working with the greater pacific Island nations and UN interventions at a level consummate with New Zealand’s standing in the world community.

http://www.blohmvoss-naval.com/en/berlin-class-fleet-auxiliary-vessels.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rok/lp-x.htm


Army

RNZA should replace the L119 light gun with the M777 now in service with the RAA with commonality issues and Australia going away from the producing the105 round at Benalla Victoria, not sure where NZ sources it EO stocks from unless it has a strategic explosive ordnance plant in NZ. Light Infantry should be expanded by another Battalion, with 3 Squadrons of Bushmaster IMV placed with the Logistic Regiments to work with the Light Infantry battalions, plus what is needed for RNZA.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/M777-He-Aint-Heavy-Hes-my-Howitzer-04829/

http://www.military-today.com/apc/bushmaster.htm
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
All these dreams are nice but where are you going to find the manpower, military careers aren't for everyone and you're going to needs thousands more.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
All these dreams are nice but where are you going to find the manpower, military careers aren't for everyone and you're going to needs thousands more.

Not a dream just a reality check to the government that having a capable defence force requires funding, a properly funded and equipped defence force gives the government options of how to respond to any given problem at the time be it humanitarian or a justification of taking up arms as part of contributing member of the United Nations.

That’s true military carriers are not for everyone, but I believe a well equipped and funded NZDF many Kiwis would think twice from crossing the pond and joining the ADF or even the UK forces. Would be interesting to find out just how many Kiwis join a foreign defence force, would they enlist in a larger better equipped defence force out of national pride.

RNZAF, unless the government reestablishes the ACF a minimal amount will be need for the Airforce (with extra helicopter’s needed for a LHD if approved) or about 2/300 would be need to reestablish an ACF everything from the pilots down to the aircraft handler’s maintainer’s refueler’s store and EO handlers.
Extra 300 Pers

RNZN, would need a vast increase in numbers one which I think is achievable, ANZAC class frigate has a crew of approx of a 170, a comparison with a Hobart AWD between 180 with accommodation of up to 234 with 1 extra Frigate you are looking at an extra 200, Endevour has a crew of about 50, Berlin class crew of 140 there an extra 100 or 250 with 2 ships, Canterbury replacement depending on its successor Endurance class LPD has a crew of 65, Canterbury crew of 70 with an enlarged Endurance clas with the same amount of automation let’s say a crew of 100,Dokdo class LHD has a crew of 300 (Canberra LHD 250) with 2 ships we are looking at a max of an extra 535 but with 3 times the capability over Canterbury.
Extra 1000 crew

Army RNZA no change just equipment type, Light Infantry Battalion.
Extra 500/600

Overall the NZDF would require an increase of approx 1900 with 10% leeway bring it up to 2090 which would bring the NZDF from a manning level of 9100 to about a force of 11200 over a 10/15 year period, I think it is doable for New Zealand, but getting the government on side is another matter.
 
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KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Ok so you increase the frontline personal you're going to need to increase all the support personal as well? Adding another battalion to the army you're going to have to increase the transport fleet, hence more drivers & mechanics, provide accommodation and food so more cooks, more staff probably leads to more trouble so more MP's....the list could go on and on.....
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I believe that has been covered by the 10% extra in manning levels

Ok so you increase the frontline personal you're going to need to increase all the support personal as well? Adding another battalion to the army you're going to have to increase the transport fleet, hence more drivers & mechanics, provide accommodation and food so more cooks, more staff probably leads to more trouble so more MP's....the list could go on and on.....
Overall the NZDF would require an increase of approx 1900 with 10% leeway bring it up to 2090 which would bring the NZDF from a manning level of 9100 to about a force of 11200 over a 10/15 year period, I think it is doable for New Zealand, but getting the government on side is another matter.

with 3 Squadrons of Bushmaster IMV placed with the Logistic Regiments to work with the Light Infantry battalions, plus what is needed for RNZA]
Go to go to work be back in a week’s time.
 
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I believe that has been covered by the 10% extra in manning levels



Go to go to work be back in a week’s time.
What you suggest would be great but frankly the only time NZ will get back into serious warfighting kit will be after we needed it. I cycnically feel that NZ'ers love waxing on about their grandfathers service in the war as if it were their own that they want to turn up to dawn services. But the leap to sacrifices made then through lack of planning and forethought to the sacrifices that will expected tomorrow for the same reasons is too much for the public to fathom. Save gold now, pay blood later.

During the cold war we could only see fit to acquire 4 frigates (as a seabased trade reliant nation). I would love to see a program similiar to Singapores to acquire say four NZ built frigates like the formidable class (high automation sophistication low crew requirement) but our industry isnt up to it (lack the leadership more than the skills base) and neither is our economy. The electorate would be dead against it and so would the govt of which ever day. So any hope of a LPD/ LPH / heli carrier is not going to fly either. Which is a pity because the way I see it a flat deck 10,000 with normal frigate capabilities (Sensor suite, 5 inch, VLS, torp tubes, CIWS) and 4 helicopters or more is the only way to hope to compete with a modern or near modern sub.

ACF again only after we needed it. I say this with a great deal of regret as former reg infantry man and now tf its hard to admit that the airforce would be more valuable than say me in a real fight for our supply lines hence sovereignty and economic survival. But there it is. Our offensive power reduced to two sqd's of SAS, 24 L119 and 2x 5 inch.

Frankly the priorities are C-130 then P-3. No assets in the govt inventory have done as much service as those two fleets with the lack of regard that they have seen.
Not only do they need replacement but expansion aswell. 5 was always considered too few but yet no action and little hushed discussions if anything about it.

However I have been lucky enough to handle some of the new kit coming through for the army (regular) and it is all well though out and durable gear and not cheap either. Makes me alot jealous.

Also does anyone know the capabilities of the L119 in the AT role against say a triple heavy tank? Reason I ask is that with the development of various active protection systems coming out and a chinese one that I heard about from a friend in town about one specifically in mind of Javelin, it makes me wonder whats next and what we have to counter it?
 
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