I'd imagine that the SHAR with the safety engineers has big red circles around hands off procedures...
F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter
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The push button VTOL capability is very important for F-35B. Landing a Harrier was and is very hard. Not every fighter pilot could do it and took a lot of training effort for those that could. By making it automatic any operator of the F-35B can build their pilot force from a wider cohort, reduce the training demand and the risk of accidents.
As to landing on the back of a frigate that shouldn’t be too much of a problem but only in flat seas. An aft flight deck on a frigate moves up and down a lot more than the amidships landing position on a VTOL carrier. No amount of automatic landing capability is going to help if the flight deck comes up and hits you so hard its like a springboard.
I very much doubt you will see F-35Bs lily padding from frigates but it might be a good way to save an airframe of a battle damaged fighter that can’t make it back to the carrier.
As to landing on the back of a frigate that shouldn’t be too much of a problem but only in flat seas. An aft flight deck on a frigate moves up and down a lot more than the amidships landing position on a VTOL carrier. No amount of automatic landing capability is going to help if the flight deck comes up and hits you so hard its like a springboard.
I very much doubt you will see F-35Bs lily padding from frigates but it might be a good way to save an airframe of a battle damaged fighter that can’t make it back to the carrier.
Swampfox157
New Member
It would take up almost the entire helo deck, most likely. About the only benefit this would have would be an ability to avoid a time- and asset-consuming CSAR operation, as well as an opportunity to strip the most valuable components before deep-sixing the jet. If it can't fly and takes up too much space (you would NOT be able to operate a Seahawk if there was an F-35 on the pad) , you should probably ditch it.
Also, light shipboard helicopters have a RAST (Recovery Assist Secure Traverse) system to automatically lock the aircraft to the deck upon landing. AFAIK, the F-35 in any iteration does not have this system, and would be unsecured and a potential threat to the ship and crew if it began shifting.
Senate FY2011 deal cuts $2.16 billion from budget
Source:
Lockheed-Martin F-35 Fighter Program Loses $2.16 Billion Under Budget Deal - Bloomberg
Relevant info:
F-35A - production increased from 22 to 25
F-35B - production cut from 13 to 3
F-35C - no change from 7 requested
Source:
Lockheed-Martin F-35 Fighter Program Loses $2.16 Billion Under Budget Deal - Bloomberg
Relevant info:
F-35A - production increased from 22 to 25
F-35B - production cut from 13 to 3
F-35C - no change from 7 requested
Nope, none of that is accurate. CSAR is what you do when the pilot has to eject behind enemy lines or out in the sea somewhere. If the damaged aircraft can recover to alongside friendly forces then the pilot can be recovered by those forces. In the case of a frigate the pilot ejects alongside and an RHIB can pick them up.
If the plane can still land but doesn’t have the fuel to make it to the carrier then such a landing doesn’t mean it has to takeoff again. Like any damaged plane that can be recovered that will be done by heavy lift helicopter.
This has happened a few times with the RN Sea Harrier force where aircraft that would otherwise be a total loss were recovered and returned to service. Even during the Falklands conflict when a very valuable fighter would have been lost to the fleet but was able to stay in the fight after a slight delay.
The loss of the frigate’s flight deck to helo operations while the VTOL fighter is aboard is not half as bad as it appears. Naval helos frequently lily pad – that is operate from other ship’s flight decks – and the helo of the affected ship will just fly from other decks until theirs is cleared.
This gear is only used for high sea state landings. Otherwise the helo just touches down and is secured in a conventional fashion. I have a few frigate landings in helos and I’ve never seen the RAST/Beartrap stuff used in action.
Thats one hell of a heavy lift.. 14t or so empty? Whats going to lift that?! I would imagine craning it off in port would be more suitable. If its a refuel they could be done at sea I would imagine atleast enough so it can get the hell of it.
I would imagine it will happen at some time. F-35's aren't exactly cheap...
I do remember seeing a harrier land on the helo spot on a ship, it looked dam difficult. Push to land will make things a great deal easier, I would imagine the F-35 sensors would proberly inform the pilot if the landing spot is moving too much to attempt a landing.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Depending on which version F-35, and what the empty weight really is, a CH-47 Chinook might be able to perform the heavy lift as well, given is can lift ~28,000 lbs/12,700 kg.
-Cheers
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Aussie Digger
Guest
Stripping the aircraft would be a time consuming activity that is most unnecessary. As Abe suggested, lifting the aircraft via heavy-lift helo would be the quickest and easiest method of recovering the aircraft to a carrier or land base, where it could be repaired and returned to service.
Deep-sixing an $120m + asset hardly seems like the most economic proposition, especially for an aircraft that was in a sufficiently capable operational state that it was able to safely land vertically on a frigate helo pad, albeit required nonetheless to land on that frigate under some sort of difficult operational circumstance.
Obviously a Seahawk would not be able to use a landing pad whilst something else is occupying it. What is the point of even making that claim? It wouldn't be able to use the landing pad if a friendly Seahawk from another vessel had to use that landing pad in an emergency either...
Again, that system (or other similar ones) aren't used for every landing. There's a million videos around that demonstrate this. Here's one:
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De4ENUsx9aM"]YouTube - Danish Navy Lynx helicopter landing at sea[/nomedia]
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Aussie Digger
Guest
A Harrier made an emergency landing on top of a container on a smallish cargo ship in the Med once. To think it could do this, but an F-35B couldn't (at all) land on a frigate flight deck as an emergency measure, definitely requires a bit of close minded thinking....
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhsifSKa8jQ"]YouTube - Sea Harrier ZA176 Makes Emergency Landing on Cargo Ship Alraigo (1983)[/nomedia]
Further to this, a RAST equipped FFG-7 flight deck landing area measures 60 feet long and 38' feet wide. The full flight deck however (including RAST control station) measures 76 feet long and over 40 feet wide.
An F-35B measures 51.2 feet long and with a 35 feet wingspan, so from a basic measure perspective an F-35b WOULD fit on an FFG-7 sized RAST equipped flight deck.
Of course all sorts of engineering data would be needed to confirm an F-35b could actually vertically land on the deck. But a basic look suggests it's possible...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/1-564/AD.HTM
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I know, but there are going to be different version of the -B, depending on just which production block they are from. IIRC the LRIP versions are likely to be a little bit heavier than full rate production models, partially due to SDD work still being done on some of the initial blocks. There is also the little matter of a rather wide variance in published empty weights for the F-35, I have seen figures ranging from ~22,000 lbs to past 28,000 lbs.Well, since we are talking about a VL on a frigate, only the F-35B applies
-Cheers
Its getting right up to the limits of the heavy lift helos, but seems doable unless they get heavier.
I would imagine ~14t or so on the landing would also be towards the upper end of what its designed for.
I would imagine ~14t or so on the landing would also be towards the upper end of what its designed for.
Swampfox157
New Member
I'm not implying that it's impossible for an F-35B to land on a frigate's deck-I actually believe it absolutely possible. It's simply unpractical unless heavylift helos are available to remove the damaged airframe to a carrier or maintenance facility. If they are, you save an expensive airframe and a rescue operation. If these are not available, you simply save on rescue time, and the most critical components if time can be made to remove them.
Swampfox157
New Member
I've seen CSAR as meaning 'Combat Search and Rescue' as you meant it, and 'Crew Search and Rescue' as I meant. I should have been more clear, sorry.
fretburner
Banned Member
A decade later and they're still bummed: Boeing engineers: We should have won F-35 fighter contract
I do think the vertical lift system of Boeing was just a variation of the Harrier's, so I'm not so sure about this ex-Boeing Engineer's statement:
“I thought our vertical takeoff model was far superior,” Cole said. “The design was definitely cutting edge, it was new technology. We really thought it was going to win the day for us.”
Or maybe I didn't read enough online materials to see theirs as "cutting edge" versus LM's vertical lift fan system.
I do think the vertical lift system of Boeing was just a variation of the Harrier's, so I'm not so sure about this ex-Boeing Engineer's statement:
“I thought our vertical takeoff model was far superior,” Cole said. “The design was definitely cutting edge, it was new technology. We really thought it was going to win the day for us.”
Or maybe I didn't read enough online materials to see theirs as "cutting edge" versus LM's vertical lift fan system.
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Aussie Digger
Guest
Yep. They were definitely hard done by. I mean why should the fact that their system didn't work and couldn't meet the requirement be held against them?
fretburner
Banned Member
Didn't work? Wasn't it Boeing who demonstrated the STOVL + Supersonic flight first?
There is a pretty good PBS episode of "Nova" about the X-32 and X-35 flyoff and Boeing didn't fare so well in any of the testing.
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