Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[StevoJH]

Canterbury to join the Pacific Partnership exercise, leaving today.

RNZN to join Rimpac next year. Probably will be a Frigate sent, surely? But whatever does go next year, will be a significant event in terms of NZ-US (and naval) relations.

Could be an Orion....

Also once NZ is invited to a USN exercise, there's no reason why NZ couldn't reciprocate and invite the USN to a NZ exercise (or more likely NZ join an Aust-US exercise down-under) ....

What solo exercises does NZ undertake on a large enough scale that US involvement would be beneficial? (not trying to be sarcastic, I honestly don't know enough to comment)

Never under-estimate the power of politicians to "interfere" with Defence and, for example, offer NZ a second-hand ANZAC RAN Frigate (probably not upgraded - and only one has been upgraded anyway, at the moment), if there is some benefit to Australia (or its industry) ....

I can't think of a benefit unless the ANZAC replacement could be fast tracked. Australian industry would be hurt with one less frigate to upgrade. Plus I'm assuming it would have been an 8 ship upgrade contract.

It was mooted this possibility was offered before circa 3rd NZ ANZAC Frigate decision (over 10 years ago) ...

The ANZACs were still in production back then and a replacement could have been procured following on from Perth. We also had the flexibility of having additional Adelaides in service to cover the gap.

http://www.defence.govt.nz/pdfs/def...eview-white-paper-cabinet-combined-papers.pdf

Page 71: "Upgrade frigate self-defence to close the gap with Australia".

Although, I do concede, whether the NZ pollies actually deliver on the rhetoric, is yet to be seen ...

Those are just funding proposals, it doesnt specify which option will be chosen yet. In addition, the "lean" option specifically says "minimum upgrade of ANZAC frigates".

What would help though, will be to see the current RAN ANZAC upgrades (of which there are numerous projects), see through to a successful conclusion etc. Are you able to update status (and projected timeframes etc)?

Top 30 Projects: Defence Materiel Organisation

Last I heard was HMAS Perth undergoing post upgrade sea trials. Approval for the upgrade of the remaining seven ships depends on the results of testing.

Makes her an interesting looking ship though...

Think someone posted photo's to the RAN thread a while back.

 

[recce.k1]

What solo exercises does NZ undertake on a large enough scale that US involvement would be beneficial? (not trying to be sarcastic, I honestly don't know enough to comment)

Others would be better qualified to answer, but I suspect in all likelyhood it could mean RNZN being invited to some regular AU-US exercises in Australian waters (but I'm merely speculating, it could be this may be still "some time off" depending how fast or slow the pollies wish to progress this).

I don't think it would be a case of NZ-US solo exercises, seeing these weren't the norm during the latter NZ ANZUS period? During the NZ ANZUS period, from memory, USN visited NZ as goodwill after exercises in Australian waters. Or USN visited when ANZUS exercises were conducted in NZ waters with the warships of the three nations. Seeing currently, NZ isn't formally an ANZUS member, I don't expect to see any major exercises with the USN, RNZN and maybe the RAN in NZ waters in the near term (like in the past). But who knows, I would say this could change at a near-future point, and in all likelyhood a USN/USNS support vessel could easily join a NZ exercise in her waters sooner rather than later (eg a Pacific Partnership type vessel to work with HMNZS Canterbury).

I can't think of a benefit unless the ANZAC replacement could be fast tracked. Australian industry would be hurt with one less frigate to upgrade. Plus I'm assuming it would have been an 8 ship upgrade contract.

You and I may think that, but y'know these pollies think differently to "us here" or "Defence". Eg AuGov may arm-twist NZG into a 3 ship ANZAC II replacement, and what better political incentive than to lease or sell a RAN ANZAC I, the reason being it would be easier to "prove" NZ requires 3 vessels when they already have 3 vessels not 2 in service, esp later in the 2010's when NZ's ANZAC replacement programme is underway etc. Pollies do "strange" things like that. (And we're seeing the effects again of a 2 Frigate RNZN, the RNZN's current committments, post some major engineering upgrades and work-ups, don't allow for the release of a Frigate for anti-piracy duties this year etc).

Also (I feel NgatiMozart may be able to comment if he's around at the mo), there may be a feeling from some in the NZ Govt that it could be "cheaper" to purchase 3 European Frigates for the same cost as 2 ANZAC II's (as in cheaper up front to purchase, but operating cost wise and upgrades/compatibility wise, it may be a false economy, seeing NZ then couldn't leverage AU upgrade project outcomes of RAN vessels etc). Anyway I doubt an AuGov would accept this without some "robust discussions" at Gov-Gov levels (and maybe a "sweetner")?

Those are just funding proposals, it doesnt specify which option will be chosen yet. In addition, the "lean" option specifically says "minimum upgrade of ANZAC frigates".

I agree, that's why I qualified my response!

Top 30 Projects: Defence Materiel Organisation

Last I heard was HMAS Perth undergoing post upgrade sea trials. Approval for the upgrade of the remaining seven ships depends on the results of testing.

I suspect for NZ Defence Planners, who tend to be risk adverse (and for Au Defence planners too of course), it is important to see HMAS Perth reach IOC etc on schedule. Fingers crossed for both countries.

 

[jeffb]

This is just crazy, there is no way Australia is going to start giving away ANZACs. Firstly there is no ship to spare, secondly there would be questions to if NZ could even keep a third ship crewed and maintained. Like the joint C17 purchase it just reeks of the old "NZ wants all the benefits of being an Australian state without any of the responsibilities". Giving a ship away wouldn't be strange it would be suicide.

Your original link highlights the South Pacific and EEZ patrol as the main areas of operation for NZ, with the few details we've heard about the ANZAC 2s I can't see NZ being interested in them, they will be too big and will have a large offensive capability. On the other hand there are many ship classes in Europe which would suit the role better and provide the same opportunities for upgrades.

I'm also deeply sceptical about the potential for RNZN ANZAC upgrades, you have to be in the current economic climate, the state of the defence department in general and the ordeal to originally purchase the ships.

 

[RegR]

This is just crazy, there is no way Australia is going to start giving away ANZACs. Firstly there is no ship to spare, secondly there would be questions to if NZ could even keep a third ship crewed and maintained. Like the joint C17 purchase it just reeks of the old "NZ wants all the benefits of being an Australian state without any of the responsibilities". Giving a ship away wouldn't be strange it would be suicide.

Your original link highlights the South Pacific and EEZ patrol as the main areas of operation for NZ, with the few details we've heard about the ANZAC 2s I can't see NZ being interested in them, they will be too big and will have a large offensive capability. On the other hand there are many ship classes in Europe which would suit the role better and provide the same opportunities for upgrades.

I'm also deeply sceptical about the potential for RNZN ANZAC upgrades, you have to be in the current economic climate, the state of the defence department in general and the ordeal to originally purchase the ships.

Im not sure why you assume we want Australia to 'give' us a ANZAC or a C-17, what have we been 'given' in the past? you make it sound as if we are out taking gear off Aus left,right and centre. All people are saying on here is that from a purely logistical point of veiw and with commonality bonuses it would be beneficial to pursue the option of attaining either type.

The C-17 idea mooted was to purchase a seperate AC not take over one they already have or a about to get, so how would that affect RAAF other than shareing space on their maintanence line, which we would obviously PAY a fee for? A ANZAC could be SOLD to NZ to free up funds for RAN to purchase the extra AWD they want, 1 for 1 ship, so again how does this affect RAN otherwise they would just purchase another AWD outright.

Maybe we should look elsewhere overseas for frigate replacements(would probably get a better price) and not worry about closer working synergies, supporting regional industry(even 2 ANZAC IIs will cost a over a billion easy let alone 3), or that whole ANZAC spirit of co-operation thing in order for Australia to feel we are not being 'given' anything. We do it with all our other ships so maybe time to do our own thing.

And also I would not like to be a state of Australia, thats kind of like saying Australia wants to be a state of America, because they have C-17s, FFG-7s, Abrams, LAV-25s etc etc so what does that mean???.

 

[Kirkzzy]

And also I would not like to be a state of Australia, thats kind of like saying Australia wants to be a state of America, because they have C-17s, FFG-7s, Abrams, LAV-25s etc etc so what does that mean???.

I think what Jeffb was trying to say, is that it seems ridiculous that Australia should go for a joint C-17 or give NZ an ANZAC when we need the amount we currently have and that some members of this forum push this whole ANZAC joint ships and forces a bit too far, and I have seen it in other threads,

 

[recce.k1]

I think what Jeffb was trying to say, is that it seems ridiculous that Australia should go for a joint C-17 or give NZ an ANZAC when we need the amount we currently have and that some members of this forum push this whole ANZAC joint ships and forces a bit too far, and I have seen it in other threads,

Again, give? Do some of you guys actually read or get what some of us are saying, or do your eyes glaze over and you picture in your minds what we're saying and so arrive at a different conclusion

And just to be clear, I'm not advocating nor pushing Australian to sell or lease NZ an ANZAC either! That's up to your pollies! Would they do that? Depends what advantages there are to "them" i.e. industry, where taxes are gathered and jobs are to be had!

 

[Bonza]

And on that note, can everyone stop bickering and be friends again?

 

[RegR]

I think what Jeffb was trying to say, is that it seems ridiculous that Australia should go for a joint C-17 or give NZ an ANZAC when we need the amount we currently have and that some members of this forum push this whole ANZAC joint ships and forces a bit too far, and I have seen it in other threads,

I agree we should not share major platforms as a rule just combine on large joint operations to move our forces as it can only help with maintanence cycles, availability, size etc. Examples such as hosting the 80+ RAN officer trainees on Cant to acheive their seatime due to RAN shortage , dropping Aus vehicles in Timor on the way to replace ours and moving our Hueys to ex Hamel via RAAF C-17 are prime ways our combined resources acheive common goals and optimise use.

I think pers were only suggesting RAN ANZACs as they are similar to ours and would make transition smoother due to operating, maintaining and supporting however if push came to shove we could just get another type as most of our other vessels are differing types, not ideal but do-able, should aqquire ANZAC if available, not will be given ANZAC at the expense of RAN operational commitments just because we need a 3rd frigate.

 

[stryker NZ]

has anyone heard the reason why Endeavour had to return home? i remember hearing a brief report about it but cant find much other info on the issue

 

[Sea Toby]

Having passed on the opportunity to buy a third Anzac frigate ten years ago, if New Zealand chose to buy a third new frigate now they should buy a different class ship to avoid block obsolescence later. While its advantageous to have ships of a similar class, its not necessary. Having ships expiring fifteen years apart is nice too...

 

[Lucasnz]

Having passed on the opportunity to buy a third Anzac frigate ten years ago, if New Zealand chose to buy a third new frigate now they should buy a different class ship to avoid block obsolescence later. While its advantageous to have ships of a similar class, its not necessary. Having ships expiring fifteen years apart is nice too...

Absolutley agree. Buying another ANZAC now would leave us in the same position as when the RNZN had to replace all 4 frigates at once. NZ needs to get into the swing of ongoing capital spending. To replace 3 frigates in one hit would have a serious and negative impact on other defence projects.

It seems to me that one logical solution to a 3rd frigate (given the political dislike and the current fiscal situation) is the acquisition of something like the MEKO CSL (But not necessarily that ship), or a Sigma class ship as a replacement for Resolution and Manawanui. Frankly there's no reason why the OPV could not perform the majority of Resolution and Manawanui's roles.

Personally anything with a medium cal gun, ASW and Sea Ram / Mistral is an improvement on the current combat capability of the RNZN, especially if you keep the main area of operation to NZ / South Pacific.

 

[Sea Toby]

Absolutley agree. Buying another ANZAC now would leave us in the same position as when the RNZN had to replace all 4 frigates at once. NZ needs to get into the swing of ongoing capital spending. To replace 3 frigates in one hit would have a serious and negative impact on other defence projects.

It seems to me that one logical solution to a 3rd frigate (given the political dislike and the current fiscal situation) is the acquisition of something like the MEKO CSL (But not necessarily that ship), or a Sigma class ship as a replacement for Resolution and Manawanui. Frankly there's no reason why the OPV could not perform the majority of Resolution and Manawanui's roles.

Personally anything with a medium cal gun, ASW and Sea Ram / Mistral is an improvement on the current combat capability of the RNZN, especially if you keep the main area of operation to NZ / South Pacific.

I like the MEKO CSL as well. They would be excellent warships for the south Pacific. They are another yard's concept of a LCS with a similar range as a MEKO 200. They would also mix well with the Anzacs too...

I find it interesting how much naval warship design has changed in twenty years, and will again in another twenty years...

http://www.blohmvoss-naval.com/en/meko-csl.html

 

[StevoJH]

They might be better off waiting until the UK, US, Germany or Australia start to introduce their next frigate class. Get 1st or 2nd of class, something in the middle of the build and the last ship at the end. That should spread the ships over 5-10 years.

 

[recce.k1]

I think StevoJH nails it i.e. wait until the next generation of vessels appear (which the NZ Govt seems to be looking towards i.e. no desire themselves to acquire a 3rd Frigate in the near term ie next several years, but look towards the ANZAC I replacements in the 2020's).(Unless something else forces NZG's hand, best I stop there)!

It looks to me there has been a fundamental shift - from once buying outright vessels (and facing the issue of block obsolescene) i.e. the earlier Type 12 Frigates .... to joining an Australian ship building programme i.e. ANZAC I's meaning that the costs to NZ are off-set by participation in the projects (and also meaning purchases can be spread over the life of the project). Also think Project Protector with its high Aust content with some NZ contribution etc.

To my mind, this is still where NZ is heading (or perhaps correctly, continuing), especially as pollies on both sides of the ditch shore up joint business opportunities and assimilate regulatory frameworks etc.

 

[Kirkzzy]

Forgive me if anyone has mentioned this but what about the Royal Navy's Type 26 C2?
It is supposed to be a more general purpose warship and would be great for NZ.

 

[recce.k1]

Forgive me if anyone has mentioned this but what about the Royal Navy's Type 26 C2?
It is supposed to be a more general purpose warship and would be great for NZ.

Yes I believe that's been mentioned by some here, and some have also mentioned the new Aussie OCV's as being more suitable etc.

Anyway even if NZ doesn't go the ANZAC II route, the main shipping building companies in Australia (that also have a European ownership stake) should be able to provide a relevant alternative design, with some commonality in some systems found on the bigger ANZAC II's and offset some NZ manufacturing participation. (Again see Project Protector - Tenix/BAE Systems provided the OPV for example and others. And the OPV's are functional despite the earlier funding limitations etc).

I think the problem is, for the public and here, it's still early days and we're chasing our tails speculating (and sometimes as "fact"). Presumably things are still at discussion and concept stages amongst the various countries/companies? For the public anyway (may likely be a different situation for some defpros).

 

[Lucasnz]

Forgive me if anyone has mentioned this but what about the Royal Navy's Type 26 C2?
It is supposed to be a more general purpose warship and would be great for NZ.

The RN C2 is no more from what I read somewhere on the net recently. Apparently C1 & C2 were merged and the tonnage of the proposed ship lowered to around 5,100. (and do you think I can find the link now - not for the life of me).

 

[Twickiwi]

2 Holland Class OPV going spare

Absolutley agree. Buying another ANZAC now would leave us in the same position as when the RNZN had to replace all 4 frigates at once. NZ needs to get into the swing of ongoing capital spending. To replace 3 frigates in one hit would have a serious and negative impact on other defence projects.

It seems to me that one logical solution to a 3rd frigate (given the political dislike and the current fiscal situation) is the acquisition of something like the MEKO CSL (But not necessarily that ship), or a Sigma class ship as a replacement for Resolution and Manawanui. Frankly there's no reason why the OPV could not perform the majority of Resolution and Manawanui's roles.

Personally anything with a medium cal gun, ASW and Sea Ram / Mistral is an improvement on the current combat capability of the RNZN, especially if you keep the main area of operation to NZ / South Pacific.

Maybe some opportunistic bargaining might be done with the down-sizing Dutch Armed Forces on 2 of the yet to be commissioned Holland Class OPV. It would fit very snugly between bare bones patrol capability focused on the Southern Ocean of the Protector and the all out war fighting capability of the ANZAC and future ANZAC II. It would allow the pollies to commit to only 2 ANZAC II and still have a LOT of scalable capability over the next generation. Might also keep the accountants and tree huggers happy.:jump2

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland_class_offshore_patrol_vessels"]Holland class offshore patrol vessels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:HNLMS_Holland_P840.JPG" class="image" title="Future HNLMS Holland P840"><img alt="Future HNLMS Holland P840" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/HNLMS_Holland_P840.JPG/300px-HNLMS_Holland_P840.JPG"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/e/e1/HNLMS_Holland_P840.JPG/300px-HNLMS_Holland_P840.JPG[/ame]

There's 19 Dutch F-16 for the chop too, but that's not for this discussion.fftopic

 

[SASWanabe]

it seems like it would be a good idea, with the Price the ANZAC II are probably going to be you could buy 4 or 5 of these for the price of 1 ANZAC II

 

[harryriedl]

The RN C2 is no more from what I read somewhere on the net recently. Apparently C1 & C2 were merged and the tonnage of the proposed ship lowered to around 5,100. (and do you think I can find the link now - not for the life of me).

Im not sure about them being merged but C2 has gone down to 5100tons It was in Janes Naval were I saw the update to the program.