Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[TasTiger]

And also I would not like to be a state of Australia

How about a self-governing territory?

Thinking about this seriously, what would be the ramifications of some form of an agreement to fully integrate the military forces of Australia and New Zealand?
Would we be able to avoid some unnecessary capability duplications to find savings that wouldn't be possible as independent forces, and create a better resourced force than we can achieve individually?

What would the implications be for naval forces - would we sustain the current numbers of our combined fleets? Would we use potential cost savings and increased crew numbers to increase the size of our combined fleet?
Or would bean counters take such an opportunity to reduce our overall fleet size, with an argument that what's good enough for Australia is enough to protect New Zealand too?

(Also we could call our combined land forces ANZAC. )

 

[Sea Toby]

How about a self-governing territory?

Thinking about this seriously, what would be the ramifications of some form of an agreement to fully integrate the military forces of Australia and New Zealand?
Would we be able to avoid some unnecessary capability duplications to find savings that wouldn't be possible as independent forces, and create a better resourced force than we can achieve individually?

What would the implications be for naval forces - would we sustain the current numbers of our combined fleets? Would we use potential cost savings and increased crew numbers to increase the size of our combined fleet?
Or would bean counters take such an opportunity to reduce our overall fleet size, with an argument that what's good enough for Australia is enough to protect New Zealand too?

(Also we could call our combined land forces ANZAC. )

Look at the difficulties the Euro is having with different nations using the same "dollar"... The different nations have different monetary agendas leaving a monetary mess throughout Europe... Whatever formula is used with a combined ANZAC defence force, it would be so much easier just to combine the two nations into one nation... Goodbye New Zealand, hello super Australia...

Unfortunately, Kiwis will refuse to give up their independence. At the moment the two nations don't even have the same monetary "dollar"... Yet, some advocate a combined defence force? Notitce everyone of those advocating such are Kiwis interested in not funding a defence force.... Australia will never bite this bullet...

 

[KiwiRob]

I have no problem with NZ becoming an Australian state, I know a number of kiwis who wouldn't mind either, we were supposed to be a state, we are written in their constitution as a state. Becoming a state would solve a lot of our problems.

 

[t68]

Nope being Australian i am not in favour of New Zealand becoming a state of Australia, yes there are provisions for this to happen but i believe the current establishment should be maintained.

From a defence perspective there would be a boost to the ADF and it would go in a good way in establishing Abraham Gubler extra boots for a 4th manoeuvre group to the army, wheeled armour has a bit of a problem between Auslav/NZlav although they look identical will create a logistical problem for parts (power packs different Cat/Detroit).Boost to the RAN with extra frigates (need upgrading) extra AOR and sealift.

Sticking points do the added extra’s that comes into the ADF stay in NZ or moved to larger bases with the Australian mainland to reduce costs, there are merits to keeping a brigade in NZ will that that mean extra C17 or extra C130J as NZ 130H will need replacing along with the 4 remaining RAAF C130H Hercules.
In defence alone combining the 2 defence force there will be large obstacles to overcome let alone the integration of government social and infrastructure programs at a federal level, how will the Kiwi react when the perceive to be getting the short end off the stick when it comes to funding.

If the defence force where merged how do Kiwis feel it should be integrated?

But it will make State of origin more interesting in the footy.

 

[StevoJH]

How will the Kiwi's feel when they were told that they need to contribute as much to the defense budget as a portion of GSP or population as the other Australian states?

From memory we currently spend roughly 2% of GDP on defence, New Zealand is 1%?

 

[Kirkzzy]

Yes it will complicate things, if we were one nation though I'd assume increasing naval forces would be listed as a top priority to defend both Australia and NZ. NZ could possibly even get back a squadron, but most Kiwis I don't think would like this. (Present defence enthusiasts excluded)

 

[SASWanabe]

this isnt the first time the question has been raised.

Australia and New Zealand merger “not going to happen†says Keys


how would we merge without NZ becoming a state?

 

[htbrst]

HMNZS Endeavour "will take weeks to fix "

Naval supply ship will take weeks to fix | Stuff.co.nz

The navy's fleet tanker and supply ship, HMNZS Endeavour, is likely to be tied up at the Devonport naval base in Auckland for several weeks after breaking down.

The ship was heading to western Australia early last month when it turned back after it began burning excessive oil in its main engine....

Shame about the time she will be out of service, but it does go to illustrate that she is getting a bit long in the tooth. With her dues to decommission in 3-4 years (as per quoted in the article), has there been any recent discussion about how long before we can expect something concrete on the specifications for her replacement ?.. we must be starting to cut things a little fine between the decommisioning of Endevour and the introduction to service of her replacement...:coffee

 

[t68]

Naval supply ship will take weeks to fix | Stuff.co.nz



Shame about the time she will be out of service, but it does go to illustrate that she is getting a bit long in the tooth. With her dues to decommission in 3-4 years (as per quoted in the article), has there been any recent discussion about how long before we can expect something concrete on the specifications for her replacement ?.. we must be starting to cut things a little fine between the decommisioning of Endevour and the introduction to service of her replacement...:coffee

Hope not much goes wrong with her in the next few years, might end up like the RAN in regards to the amphibious fleet. Cutting it a bit fine but with finger crossed Endeavour won’t have any more problems till replacement arrives.

A discussion has taken place not long ago, it appears RNZN would like a JSS type ship multi role that not only has RAS capability but would like some additional sealift as well. Shipbuilder's had till March 25 for a RFI(Request for information). i guess navy are going thru the motions on what has surfaced. Check out the discussion from post 2230.

 

[StingrayOZ]

how would we merge without NZ becoming a state?

Australia has some fairly autonomous territories like Northfolk island that may serve as a model. This would offer a lot of flexability as they would be able to set things like local tax rates (inc income tax), medicare, etc. More than a state, but still part of the commonwealth of Australia.

I think the first big thing to do is to link the currencys (into something like a Pacific dollar, or simular. That would be good for everyone in the pacific, and stablise things. I think we should really formalise our defence relationship into something much tighter. We seem to move closer, and then move apart.

 

[Hoffy]

I apologise for any offense , but frankly these suggestions in relation to merging our defense forces , forming a common currency , absorbing NZ into Australia etc etc are really ridiculous.
Why would we even entertain such ideas???
Most times these suggestions simply come from a desire for a "quick fix" to New Zealands perceived challenges whether they be military , economic or otherwise.

It's never going to happen as much as your wishful thinking may hope. Try to be a lot more realistic with these discussions otherwise we are in danger of winding up in an imaginary fairyland.

Feel free to give me some sensible comments please...........................

 

[recce.k1]

Feel free to give me some sensible comments please...........................

I'd rather we discussed Naval matters

Like the Endeavour. RNZN generally maintains their ships very well, so hopefully the engine problem isn't systematic of wider age-related problems?

If so, the question may be, how easily "fixable" is it, bearing in mind the age of the plant machinery and associated components etc? Maybe that's not an issue either, maybe it's just that it will take weeks to obtain the parts from the supplier, remove the old and fit them in-house, test and document etc, thus nothing to 'see here, move along etc'?

But if not, then oh-oh ...

 

[Todjaeger]

I apologise for any offense , but frankly these suggestions in relation to merging our defense forces , forming a common currency , absorbing NZ into Australia etc etc are really ridiculous.
Why would we even entertain such ideas???
Most times these suggestions simply come from a desire for a "quick fix" to New Zealands perceived challenges whether they be military , economic or otherwise.

It's never going to happen as much as your wishful thinking may hope. Try to be a lot more realistic with these discussions otherwise we are in danger of winding up in an imaginary fairyland.

Feel free to give me some sensible comments please...........................

Actually there is some merit in a common currency, as that would make trans-Tasman travel and more importantly trade easier. It is also possible (assuming handled correctly) that a common Oz/Kiwi currency would be 'stronger' in the global market place.

Could NZ join and become part of Australia... Certainly it could, but there are many issues which would and should be worked out exhaustively prior to that happening.

Personnally though, I would be concerned about Australia and New Zealand losing their unique national characters if the two countries where to join.

What I think might be more sensible (apart from the possible idea of a common currency) is to continue the cross postings between ADF and NZDF personnel and positions, have both countries conduct discussions about joint/common training schools, and joint HQ's. It might also be worthwhile for some common/critical infrastructure to have a trans-Tasman co-location.

Using the recent Christchurch quake and the impact it had as an example, NZ has their ATC centre located within the vicinity of Christchurch. Due to damage from the quake, ATC to/around NZ was down for a period of time, which also hampered some relief efforts. If there was a feed or feeds from NZ ATC installations (radar transceivers, transponder tracking, etc) to Oz control centres, and also a similar feed from Oz into NZ, that could help distribute infrastructure which can help with risk mitigation. Particularly in the face of large scale events/natural disasters like earthquakes, eruptions or tropical cyclones/flooding.

Other than these things, and perhaps a line or lines in upcoming purchase contracts where unexercised options can be exercised by the other country (i.e. if Oz orders 8 C-27J Spartans with options for 4 more and decides not to exercise those options, NZ could exercise them...) then I would rather prefer that Australia and New Zealand remain separate but very close, friendly, nations.

-Cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

A possible Endeavour replacement, the Damen 17028.

17,800 tonnes full displacement, with more cargo and troop capacity than Endeavour. Hangar and flight deck for two NH90s or Seasprites helicopters. 170 meters in length instead of 138 meters in length. A poor man's JSS, more of a hybrid AOR/LSD design...

 

[t68]

I think it could work along the lines of NATO either solely between Australia and New Zealand, or a more expanded agreement under the FPDA.

A formation of ANZ QRF under a unified command alternated between Australia New Zealand together with representative from a civilian council which the defence commanded reports to.

An ANZ QRF could be modelled on a smaller version Marine Expeditionary Unit,
1, ANZAC battalion (light infantry/motorised infantry)
2, Aviation element (NH-90/Chinook)
3, logistics element (combat service support battalion)
4, Commanded element

Sealift would be a mixture of HMNZS Canterbury, HMAS Canberra, HMAS Adelaide and HMAS?? (Bay class) also if NZ as speculated get the JSS type to replace HMNZS Endeavour could rotate thru the QRF.A Anzac class frigate from both navy will be part of the QRF.

Besides the maritime QRF, Air Expeditionary Wing composed of the Super Hornet, to be maintained by both governments, once F35 numbers are built up instead of giving up the Super Hornets they become an air expeditionary wing of the QRF.

A civilian/military council in charge of a ANZAC QRF should be a doable between the two countries without the need for a merger of both sovereign countries at a federal level, a small increase to the defence budget may be needed on behalf of NZ.Its a pity funds for a Anzac QRF will not be there to commit to three small permanent LPD such as RSN Endurance class would make an ideal platform to work from.

 

[t68]

A possible Endeavour replacement, the Damen 17028.

17,800 tonnes full displacement, with more cargo and troop capacity than Endeavour. Hangar and flight deck for two NH90s or Seasprites helicopters. 170 meters in length instead of 138 meters in length. A poor man's JSS, more of a hybrid AOR/LSD design...

Where did you get that from?
Looks the goods even named it a Wellington class LSD

 

[CJohn]

As stated in the Defence White Paper 2010, in the next five years a Littoral Warfare Support Ship will replace the current diving/mine countermeasures and hydrographic vessels HMNZS Manawanui and HMNZS Resolution.

The specifications for this ship are not detailed at present other than the new ship will consolidate a number of linked capabilities, and will have the speed to provide timely support to operations.

In light of this, would the recently completed BAE Systems 90m OPV's that the Government of Trinidad and Tobago have formally rejected be a contender for the new Littoral Warfare Ship, with appropriate modifications.

It is still early days in the process as yet, but the global economic slowdown may mean that these ships will be available for a number of years into the future, and the price for one of these ships would be to the buyers advantage.
Although they are in another class, it is of note the Brunei corvettes are still docked in Scotland 8 years after completion !

 

[Todjaeger]

As stated in the Defence White Paper 2010, in the next five years a Littoral Warfare Support Ship will replace the current diving/mine countermeasures and hydrographic vessels HMNZS Manawanui and HMNZS Resolution.

The specifications for this ship are not detailed at present other than the new ship will consolidate a number of linked capabilities, and will have the speed to provide timely support to operations.

In light of this, would the recently completed BAE Systems 90m OPV's that the Government of Trinidad and Tobago have formally rejected be a contender for the new Littoral Warfare Ship, with appropriate modifications.

It is still early days in the process as yet, but the global economic slowdown may mean that these ships will be available for a number of years into the future, and the price for one of these ships would be to the buyers advantage.
Although they are in another class, it is of note the Brunei corvettes are still docked in Scotland 8 years after completion !

As a practical matter, those vessels are properly OPV's, which the RNZN already have two of. So it really gets down to what sort of specifications the LWSS is supposed to have. If Government decides to go with another (or more) OPV's it might just be better to purchase additional examples of the current RNZN OPV. Otherwise the fleet will end up with very similar vessels, with different layouts, electronics and plant/machinery. All of which would have negative impacts on maintenance and crew rotation.

Until more information comes out about just what the RNZN/Government means by Littoral Warfare Support Ship, all we can do is make some rather wild guesses.

At a minimum I would expect that route, and possibly bottom/side-scanning sonars of types not usually found aboard OPVs would be hull-mounted, and that some form of diving chamber would either be permanently located aboard ship, or that space/weight/connection points for a containerized diving chamber would be available aboard the LWSS.

Other than that, the vessel armament could include VSHRAD SAMs and medium calibre guns (40 - 76 mm), or things could at the opposite end of the spectrum, with mountings for 12.7 mm HMGs at the most...

-Cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

Where did you get that from?
Looks the goods even named it a Wellington class LSD

Shipbucket.com • View topic - Damen Enforcer 17028

Shipbucket.

 

[Lucasnz]

Off the wire . Endeavour's replacement is due to come on line in 2018 at a cost of $250 million. Indications are that the ship may possibly be fitted with the necessary mountings to take Phalanx, in addition to 50 cals. On the wish list were the following:

"If budget permits and the base design permits we would like to see it with additional craneage, the ability to take a lot more containers and maybe support amphibious operations too."

.