Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[swerve]

I don't wish to pick bones, but as I recall I was commenting on her worth brand new or if Australia bought a new one. As it turns out we learn her used book price is AD200 million... ...

The MoD disposals dept. is reported to have been willing to sell for £45 million (bloody idiots!), but Australia bid £65 million to be sure of getting her, since there were other bidders.

AFAIK, AUD 200 million is an estimate of the cost of a new-build equivalent, & what was allotted for buying the sealift ship, not a realistic estimate of the resale value of Largs Bay. Australia is reported to be paying for a refit on top of the £65 million. She'll have an overhaul (nothing major needed, I think), & get any Oz-specific equipment fitted. Well, as long as the sea trials go OK.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Good deal. Glad we didn't paid $300 million for it! Good ship, in good condition, that meets our requirements. Australia is going to have some awesome sealift and amphibious ships.

Obviously with Australia, the UK will most likely at some stage work with the Largs again, so I think its been a good outcome for both countries. UK got some cash, got a stronger defence partner, Australia got a very good ship at a good price.

Nice to see defence having some projects go well. C17, LHD seem to be moving fast, now this. People are seeing real value for our $'s.

 

[battlensign]

In response to the commentary of the last 24 hours, I would make the following comments.

1) The sale of Largs Bay to Australia would, as noted by DT members, support Australia's amphibious capabilities needs. It is possible that the retention of this capability by us might be considered by the UK Government to be in UK strategic interests. It is also possible that Australia was not the highest bidder, but still secured Largs Bay on this basis. Perhaps any figure sufficiently within the desired ballpark was likely to be accepted - if Australia was willing to pay a premium to ensure we secured the ship then all the better for the UK.

2) The 300 million figure was obviously derived from the overall programme cost (GBP580-590m) for four vessels divided by 4 to get a per unit cost of ~ GBP145m and this was then roughly converted to AUD300m. As such, with swerve's comments specifically in mind and noting the sentiments of other DT members, AUD300m was never a realistic figure for the COA to be paying.

3) Any money saved should NOT be used to gain an Austal or Incat product. They quite simply do not have the range, endurance or helicopter capacities required. I would rather a 6th C-17 be purchased.

Cheers

Brett

 

[swerve]

What's the RAN doing about landing craft for her? Using what it already has in service? I don't have the dimensions of the dock to hand, but it's not very big.

Also, does Oz have Mexeflotes or any equivalent, & if not, is the purchase of some likely?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

3) Any money saved should NOT be used to gain an Austal or Incat product. They quite simply do not have the range, endurance or helicopter capacities required. I would rather a 6th C-17 be purchased.

I don't disagree with this sentiment but a C-17 costs about 4-5 times as much as a fast ferry. Also the ferry can do things like bob in the water beside Xmas Island waiting to pick up boat people when they arrive and ship them to Naru or Tasmania. Which was a role given to LPAs and clearly unsustainable during our current amphibious ship shortfall.

 

[weegee]

Is this a realistic option the fast ferry?
I know we had success with one before during the whole East Timor exercise and since then the USN has had a few and seem to like them.

So what are the Pros and Cons of having a vessel like this? and is it a long term prospect or would it only fill a gap again?

 

[Sea Toby]

The MoD disposals dept. is reported to have been willing to sell for £45 million (bloody idiots!), but Australia bid £65 million to be sure of getting her, since there were other bidders.

AFAIK, AUD 200 million is an estimate of the cost of a new-build equivalent, & what was allotted for buying the sealift ship, not a realistic estimate of the resale value of Largs Bay. Australia is reported to be paying for a refit on top of the £65 million. She'll have an overhaul (nothing major needed, I think), & get any Oz-specific equipment fitted. Well, as long as the sea trials go OK.

The following link is just one I have read on the world wide web... When the Ottawa Citizen's David Pergliese says US$300 million, I tend to weigh his defense knowledge just a bit more...

A MISTRAL-Class Ship for Canada? Australia and the UK Are in Talks On the Possible Purchase of a Royal Navy Bay-class Dock Landing Ship - David Pugliese’s Defence Watch

And I did write amphibious ship in a previous post, not amphibious assault ship... After thirty years of USCG service I know the difference....

When US Harper Ferry class LSDs ran in the early 1990s US$253 million, and the British consider a Largs Bay class LSD a better ship built ten years later, I doubt very much whether a brand new Largs Bay would run AUD200 million....

 

[spoz]

What's the RAN doing about landing craft for her? Using what it already has in service? I don't have the dimensions of the dock to hand, but it's not very big.

Also, does Oz have Mexeflotes or any equivalent, & if not, is the purchase of some likely?

Well, we used to have Mexeflotes (carried on Tobruk) and I think they are still around somewhere. As for landing craft, it looks like LCM8s would fit, and probably those aluminium things they build for the LPAs but which couldn't be used with them, if they've solved the structural issues (I know the project was canned but the craft are still about, used to be in Cairns I think).

WRT guns Typhoon and fbnw Phalanx would seem the likely outcome; but they might not be the ones ex Kan or Man (if they are both fitted, not sure they weren't sharing). My understanding (quite imperfect I accept) is that you need to design each Typhoon installation separately, particularly for the remote control versions, so there might need to be a fair bit of rework.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Is this a realistic option the fast ferry?
I know we had success with one before during the whole East Timor exercise and since then the USN has had a few and seem to like them.

So what are the Pros and Cons of having a vessel like this? and is it a long term prospect or would it only fill a gap again?

I think they may be very useful for responding to illegal immigration. You need a ship able to hand 100 or more people, respond quickly, be able to deploy RHIB's etc. They could also be useful as intratheater transport.

But they aren't a frigate. And a frigate is a waste to do that job, and ill equiped.

 

[JPiper]

I think they may be very useful for responding to illegal immigration. You need a ship able to hand 100 or more people, respond quickly, be able to deploy RHIB's etc. They could also be useful as intratheater transport.

But they aren't a frigate. And a frigate is a waste to do that job, and ill equiped.

I do believe that we need something that can be used to pick up people on a illegal misson to Australia, perhaps a fast type ferry or ship would be ideal as they can seat the people and deliver them offshore, also I would like to comment on the Australian Defence Force Academy, about the present state, I believe that the present Cadets do not appear to have regards to Women in defence and as future Officers I believe that they may have to command women sometime in the future and if they treat women like it appears perhaps they the cadets who took the DVD and watched should NOT be our future officers.

 

[SASWanabe]

seems like they have gone for the Incat 112m

Civilian craft may be used as stopgap

and for a bit of a laugh, read this sites banner and then the article

Australia buying LHD ship from Britain - UPI.com

 

[gf0012-aust]

Well, there's a place in Australia called Largs Bay, so why not?

it was one of the sites where we littered the bay with heavy naval guns because "the russians were coming"

you would wonder what went through their heads ....

 

[gf0012-aust]

seems like they have gone for the Incat 112m

Civilian craft may be used as stopgap

there's a few journalistic assumptions there .....

1) cats have to be available for lease - and last time I checked Incats order books were complete and no spares were coming off lease. Alexsa would have a clearer idea

2) I would think it only likely if we had a pending regional disaster (ala ET) again. JB was leased in advance as the intel was showing that ET was going pear shaped - which is why army were also ramped up in advance as ET was seen as going off

3) they also mention trimarans. absolute crap. the only tri we have is a ferking floating crap tank that makes people sea sick at the drop of a hat because it handles like a drunken one legged cockatoo roller blading on a greased up teflon frypan. its incapable of handling anything larger than a remote controlled plane from a toyshop

4) if they think that ships like the "beluga express" are available, then they're dreaming. its tourist season in the bahamas and that vessel is busy as buggery, calling it a trimaran is a bit of poetic license

5) the fuel and integration bills for reworking Largs are likely to cut into everyones training and fuel budgets - ie less sea time for everyone else until these are sorted

6) its not just a matter of ripping the comms guts out of bill and/or ben to refit Largs and integrate - she runs a different CSS and thats going to make the e-system integration companies rub their hands with glee.. an extra $55m aint going to cut it IMO.

 

[SASWanabe]

what about the 102m trimaran from Austal?

 

[gf0012-aust]

what about the 102m trimaran from Austal?

personally, I think that there's a chalk and cheese difference between incat and austal

austal are to mercedes are what incat is to great wall

the fit and finish of austal are vastly superior

getting any cat I think is a way off, and I can't see any compelling reason why we would lease one under current financial conditions.

I can't see any operational imperative where a cat is needed, our principle requirement opportunities would be better served with Largs than with a fast cat where its opportunity to stand off and influence is limited. Even Largs can do that better

cats would be supplementary, and you have to wonder whether where the locale was in that situation as to whether air could not get warm and verticals in faster and more refreshed.

this is dumbing it down quite a bit, but the substance still stands IMO

 

[Jezza]

Royal Navy.... Death by a 1000 cuts.

Awesome news for the RAN.
Two great decisions for the defence forces recently.

Now keep it going with the caribou and collins replacements.

 

[Jezza]

Well, there's a place in Australia called Largs Bay, so why not?

Yes in South Australia.
Largs Bay Sailing Club also.

Largs Bay Sailing Club

 

[StevoJH]

3) they also mention trimarans. absolute crap. the only tri we have is a ferking floating crap tank that makes people sea sick at the drop of a hat because it handles like a drunken one legged cockatoo roller blading on a greased up teflon frypan. its incapable of handling anything larger than a remote controlled plane from a toyshop

Why did customs lease it then? I assume they could have gotten the evaluation results from the RN via the RAN before signing the lease/charter I would have thought?

 

[riksavage]

Yes in South Australia.
Largs Bay Sailing Club also.

Largs Bay Sailing Club

Two of the UK,s remaining Bays are deployed on exercise with the RM. The RN website provides a breakdown of the supporting assets required to facilitate a Commando Company deployment aboard a Bay, all specialised units. Now Aus has invested in a decent LSD, will they be raising additional formations to make use of the ships potential and that of the LHDs down the line.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Two of the UK,s remaining Bays are deployed on exercise with the RM. The RN website provides a breakdown of the supporting assets required to facilitate a Commando Company deployment aboard a Bay, all specialised units. Now Aus has invested in a decent LSD, will they be raising additional formations to make use of the ships potential and that of the LHDs down the line.

Saw that article. RAN and Army have much the same units (Army ships detachment etc) to conduct Amphibious Operations.

This is a new ship for ADF, but it isn't a new capability for ADF...