Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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swerve

Super Moderator
When US Harper Ferry class LSDs ran in the early 1990s US$253 million, and the British consider a Largs Bay class LSD a better ship built ten years later, I doubt very much whether a brand new Largs Bay would run AUD200 million....
Look at what they actually cost: £149 million per ship, i.e. AUD240 mn, of which a large proportion was wasted. If they'd all been built at BAe Govan, or another yard which wasn't failing & needing to be propped up, having lost a lot of skills (leading to various costly problems), & with a workforce aware that the yard would close when the contract was complete, I reckon they'd probably have come in somewhere near £100 mn each, allowing for an overrun on the original contracts (£332 mn, IIRC).

Update for inflation, & you get about AUD200 million.

The price of US naval ships is not a good guide to what it would cost to have a ship built elsewhere. Also, the Harpers Ferry class is slightly bigger, faster, has far more weapons, a bigger dock, & several times as large a crew, with accommodation for twice as many personnel altogether, including troops. It may well be an inferior sealift ship (e.g. less cargo space, less manoeuverable in tight harbours) , but it looks more complicated, & hence expensive, in some ways.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Presuming internals are by and large 240v 50 hz, although the poms use a different power plug pin configuration. Would it be likely to require much of a makeover before RAN service?

cheers

rb
The interesting thing about the RFA is that some ships are 230V 50Hz and others are 230V 60Hz, my company has sold the lights for most of them, if I can find the order I'll be able to tell you. Some lights were sold with HF ballasts so Hz isn't a problem.

edit the Bay Class are 230V 60Hz.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Why did customs lease it then? I assume they could have gotten the evaluation results from the RN via the RAN before signing the lease/charter I would have thought?
no idea, but their handling ability was well known even as far back as 2002 when DERA trotted her out.

we probably got offered a special deal and thought it was a good offer.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would like to comment on the Australian Defence Force Academy, about the present state, I believe that the present Cadets do not appear to have regards to Women in defence and as future Officers I believe that they may have to command women sometime in the future and if they treat women like it appears perhaps they the cadets who took the DVD and watched should NOT be our future officers.
They were first years who are two months or so into their service in the ADF. I am not for one moment defending their alleged actions (and nor has or does the ADF) but the fact of recruiting officers is that the recruiters have to assess potential to become leaders; and that is a hard thing to do. As a result they frequently get it wrong and loss rates between recruiting and commissioning can be up to 50%. While I don't know the individuals concerned after many years of observing the training of officers, who makes it and who doesn't, I would suspect there is a good chance this mob will be in the "doesn't" group
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Update for inflation, & you get about AUD200 million.

The price of US naval ships is not a good guide to what it would cost to have a ship built elsewhere. Also, the Harpers Ferry class is slightly bigger, faster, has far more weapons, a bigger dock, & several times as large a crew, with accommodation for twice as many personnel altogether, including troops. It may well be an inferior sealift ship (e.g. less cargo space, less manoeuverable in tight harbours) , but it looks more complicated, & hence expensive, in some ways.
Maybe a good efficient European yard can build a Largs Bay ship for around AUD200 million, but I am sure building at an Australian yard would be considerably more, possibly as much as AUD250-300 milliion... HMNZS Canterbury was mostly built at an efficient Dutch yard for around NZD$180 million, say around AUD150 million. Her displacement is half of a Largs Bay...

But I will agree a South Korean yard could build the ship for much less... However, I wonder whether Australia would rather build such a ship within Australia... All of this implies Australia got a very good deal with the RFA Largs Bay...

Without any doubt Australia has a better ship twice as large as the Canterbury with the Largs Bay for a third of her price...
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Maybe a good efficient European yard can build a Largs Bay ship for around AUD200 million, but I am sure building at an Australian yard would be considerably more, possibly as much as AUD250-300 milliion... HMNZS Canterbury was mostly built at an efficient Dutch yard for around NZD$180 million, say around AUD150 million. Her displacement is half of a Largs Bay...

But I will agree a South Korean yard could build the ship for much less... However, I wonder whether Australia would rather build such a ship within Australia... All of this implies Australia got a very good deal with the RFA Largs Bay...

Without any doubt Australia has a better ship twice as large as the Canterbury with the Largs Bay for a third of her price...
Agree a Bay Class is a step-up over a Canterbury with regard to versatility and capacity.

As someone mentioned previously the selling of the Largs Bay to Aus makes strategic and military sense. Cross training of assets on a common platform by two close allies is a win, win scenario. Moving forward post 2015 It would be nice to see the five powers agreement exchanges ramp-up from simple TEWT's to something more substantial with at least a UK Commando Coy++ deployed.

I'm sure if Australia had backed out then Canada would have been the preferred choice for the same reasons.

Interestingly Cameron is under pressure to revisit SDR and delay disbanding 2 x Tornado sqns (7 to 5) and the retirement of selected T22's. The idea that the UK can weather a capability gap until 2020 is fast becoming an illusion. HMS Albion, HMS Sutherland, and RFA Cardigan Bay, together with 40 Commando Royal Marines, will leave for the Mediterranean and Middle East this week. The Ministry of Defence maintains the mobilisation of the Royal Navy’s Response Force Task Group (RFTG) is not linked to events in Libya.This leaves just Bulwark, Ocean and two Bay's in reserve to support the rest of 3 Commando now Larg's done and dusted.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
i'm sure if Australia had backed out then Canada would have been the preferred choice for the same reasons.
Well It makes sense. Canada I think would have been another good buyer. Previously the UK would almost gift things to these colonial nations, but obviously its a little different (although still a bloody good deal). UK essentially gifted the Victoria class subs, (as they should have) to canada.

Australia is really working on tightening relations with nations like the UK militarly. UK is also pretty active globally and it makes sense to work together.

I wonder how far they can cut the UK forces back tho, atleast they can get their amphibs out into open water!
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Well It makes sense. Canada I think would have been another good buyer. Previously the UK would almost gift things to these colonial nations, but obviously its a little different (although still a bloody good deal). UK essentially gifted the Victoria class subs, (as they should have) to canada.

Australia is really working on tightening relations with nations like the UK militarly. UK is also pretty active globally and it makes sense to work together.

I wonder how far they can cut the UK forces back tho, atleast they can get their amphibs out into open water!
Slightly off topic, but do the RAN still wear full fire retardent uniforms/flashhoods when at action stations? I've seen several phots of different Navies operating off Libya (assuming all where on similar alert states) some crews in full fighting rig (flashhoods etc.) and others in basic working dress? I've never seen USN crews wearing flashhoods for example, is it basically a Commonwealth legacy thing?
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Slightly off topic, but do the RAN still wear full fire retardent uniforms/flashhoods when at action stations? I've seen several phots of different Navies operating off Libya (assuming all where on similar alert states) some crews in full fighting rig (flashhoods etc.) and others in basic working dress? I've never seen USN crews wearing flashhoods for example, is it basically a Commonwealth legacy thing?

Yes, anti flash gear is still worn at the first degree of readiness and is carried when at the second. It's appropriate PPE for the circumstances - the level of care others choose to provide to their people, and the situations in which they choose to do it, is their call
 

alexsa

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Maybe a good efficient European yard can build a Largs Bay ship for around AUD200 million, but I am sure building at an Australian yard would be considerably more, possibly as much as AUD250-300 milliion... HMNZS Canterbury was mostly built at an efficient Dutch yard for around NZD$180 million, say around AUD150 million. Her displacement is half of a Largs Bay...
...
Ship building cost have outstripped inflation over the last few years and any thing more complex than a basic standard design is going to cost you a lot. I suspect that you would struglle to build a Bay for $200 mil in anything but a 'low cost' third world yard and then there will be the issue of quality.

The latter is a bigger issue than most realise. We have seen 10yo ships from some yards suffer significant corrosion failures in equipment that simply should not happen.
 

alexsa

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Why did customs lease it then? I assume they could have gotten the evaluation results from the RN via the RAN before signing the lease/charter I would have thought?
Customs chartered the Triton, it is not a HSC rather was s prototype for a multihull warship. teh concept was not adopted.

When looking at multihull there are two things to be aware of:

1. Speed cost fuel and in a HSC is at the detriment of structure hence the operatin evelope is limited.

2. DWT is critical. This is the measure of what you can liftr in weight and includes fuel, stores, spare, crew and helecopters BEFORE you consider cargo. The Larges Bay has a DWT of about 13000 tonnes. Most multihulls come in at about 600 to 900 tonnes. Even being kind (and noting speed meand a lot of fuel is required) you need at leas 14 HSC trips to do what largs can do in 1. Add to the Largs does not need a port to discharge. The fuel cost and time for 14 HSC trips would make you eyes water.
Ba
 

alexsa

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no idea, but their handling ability was well known even as far back as 2002 when DERA trotted her out.

we probably got offered a special deal and thought it was a good offer.
I understand it was cheap and available and offer a large deck area. The other option was a HSC multihull but its economics may have played against it.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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Customs chartered the Triton, it is not a HSC rather was s prototype for a multihull warship. teh concept was not adopted.
I spoke to the POC for DERA at PACNAV 2002 and he made it pretty clear that they didn't see much opportunity to go further.

DERA had bought a whole series of designs from the russians when they had a fire sale on naval designs for multi hulls - they'd even designed some large fleet carriers which magically re-appeared some years later as BAE multi-hull concepts. One thing about the russians, is that when they suddenly realise that a design is "spent" - they'll onsell it. :)

large blue water fleet multi-hulls are just not going to happen, the logistics and physics maths just don't converge to make them useful.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Customs chartered the Triton, it is not a HSC rather was s prototype for a multihull warship. teh concept was not adopted.
I never said it was a HSC. Neither did GF as far as I know.

My comment was that I wanted to know why it was leased in the first place when Customs either via the RAN or directly would have presumably been able to access the RN's test results from when they used it to evaluate the trimaran warship concept as part of their FSC development program.

I assume the narrow center hull reduces stability when either of the side hulls goes over the side of a beam on wave resulting in increased rolling motion in comparison to a comparable monohull?
 

alexsa

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I never said it was a HSC. Neither did GF as far as I know.

My comment was that I wanted to know why it was leased in the first place when Customs either via the RAN or directly would have presumably been able to access the RN's test results from when they used it to evaluate the trimaran warship concept as part of their FSC development program.

I assume the narrow center hull reduces stability when either of the side hulls goes over the side of a beam on wave resulting in increased rolling motion in comparison to a comparable monohull?
It has some issues and advantages but the former appear to outweight the latter. As noted later it really appears to have come down to cost and availabilty combined wiht deck area. Scope creep is an issue for it and it really is too small for what it is being used for.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
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I spoke to the POC for DERA at PACNAV 2002 and he made it pretty clear that they didn't see much opportunity to go further.

DERA had bought a whole series of designs from the russians when they had a fire sale on naval designs for multi hulls - they'd even designed some large fleet carriers which magically re-appeared some years later as BAE multi-hull concepts. One thing about the russians, is that when they suddenly realise that a design is "spent" - they'll onsell it. :)

large blue water fleet multi-hulls are just not going to happen, the logistics and physics maths just don't converge to make them useful.
I suspect it get really interesting in short tall seas..... worse still in a confused swell where an ourrigger gets hung up.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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and it really is too small for what it is being used for.
in all honesty, there are prawn trawlers designed in adelaide and sold into the eueopean fishing fleets that would be better at doing that job.

I attended a couple of custom trawler launches a few years back and lo and behold there were RAN officers and engineers present... :)

My invite came through the SA Fisheries Academy, so I have no idea how they ended up on the latte list... :)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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I suspect it get really interesting in short tall seas..... worse still in a confused swell where an ourrigger gets hung up.
yep, tie down those aircraft tractors, because they're bound to do double duty as USV's otherwise.... :)
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
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in all honesty, there are prawn trawlers designed in adelaide and sold into the eueopean fishing fleets that would be better at doing that job.

I attended a couple of custom trawler launches a few years back and lo and behold there were RAN officers and engineers present... :)

My invite came through the SA Fisheries Academy, so I have no idea how they ended up on the latte list... :)
Anything like the UT500 seriers offshore support vessel wouel be brilliant. 21 knots, 20000nm range, flight deck and an austre capacity for 200.
 
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