Peschernik, I recommend you take a further look into tank tactics and the technology you are writing about here, cause you have a lot of really confusing statements in your post.
I can only repeat what has already been mentioned by Waylander. The intended tactical role of gun-launched ATGM like Refleks is to open a fire ambush from concealed positions at high distances. This is a very limited role. It is not something you want to use very often. There is a reason why Russian tanks only carry 2 of these missiles with them.
Not right. T-90 carry 6 of these missiles with them.
They are not duelling weapons, and they are not the most important weapon a tank has.
The reflex doesn't participate in a duel? You speak about duel between tanks?
If fight begins from distance of 2500 m then yes - the Reflex won't be applied. But if fight will begin from distance of 5000 m, than the Reflex will applied 5-6 times (before tanks come on distance of 3000-2500 m). Than (from this distance - 2500), Т-90 will use usual shells.
It is not my idea. It is written in official sources about Т-90.
(Asia buys Т-90. In such countries as Iraq many open spaces where fight can begin from distance 5000 m. There, «long hand» of T-90 (the AGTM) will be especially useful.)
Most of the time you don't need them.
[Mod Edit: Text deleted. You are trolling. The Mod Team have reviewed your prior posts and we are telling you directly that you need to seriously reconsider your engagement style. There will be no further warnings.]
If you need to destroy a enemy pillbox, a moving sea boat, or helicopter or slowly flying plane, or any armored car on distance several kilometers - you can make it by Reflex. This is official opinion of the АГТМ’s designers. (But if you on such big distance will use antitank-shells like M829A2… Lol! It will not effective.)
Infantry also can get not small problem from Reflex. Because for Reflex has been developed powerful thermobaric rocket (to kill the infantry) – it is information from Russian’s wiki.
[Mod Edit: There is a big difference between reading about anti-tank weapons on wiki and having fired them. I'm trained to employ them and have fired anti-tank weapons. I'm telling you that flight time is a tactial concern and giving away your firing position (because of smoke plumes) is also a tactial concern. Further, tanks operate as part of a combined arms team. Therefore artillery and air support are also factors to consider. An anti-tank team often has an artillery observer with them (often called a Forward Observer or FO in some countries) and these anti-tank teams also have a counter mobility plan. The other problem I have conceptually, with your posts, is your lack of understanding of the role of reconnaissance and more specifically, the role of armoured reconnaissance prior to meeting engagements. In defending against tanks, I would always assume that enemy's tank units are supported by armoured reconnaissance units and other ISR assets to identify likely or known ambush sites. These armoured reconnaissance units will also operate from overwatch while discrete elements bound forward, so it is never as simple as you describe.]
You already mentioned it yourself, Peschernik, an ATGM is terribly slow compared to a KE round. A flight time of 15 seconds is a lot of time, it means 15 seconds for the enemy tank crew to react (search cover, launch smoke, counterfire)
Speed of Reflex’s rocket - near 300 m/s and this speed not fall all time of flight
Speed of usual american’s shell (M829A2) – near 1650 m/s but this speed gradually fall all time of flight.
Counterfire? Lol! Abrams can`t fire at 5000m. Abrams is limited to 4km because of its LRF (laser range finder) maximum range.
Search cover? Lol! I think the American tankmen is not cowards. I think the Abrams TC will keep his tank at almost full speed to close in ASAP to get in range. In this time Abrams can get 6 russian’s rockets from T-90. Than (if Abrams is survive), when the two tanks are about 3000m from each other, both will start to use their APFSDS. Or russian’s tank may be will use APFSDS slightly later - from 2500m. (Whay I says “from 2500”? Because I listen from some russians solders, what even on distance in 3000 meters (not only from 5000m), the rockets of Reflex is more effective than shells, to hit moving target.)
You have told – “smoke”? The laser beam of the Reflex doesn't irradiate the tank (almost). Therefore, even if enemy tank has laser detectors, the tank will can find flying rocket only by optics. IT ISN'T ALWAYS POSSIBLE. But even if the rocket is founded and the tank has let out smoke, it will not prevent the operator of the Reflex to guide the rocket – the enemy tank will be visible in thermals. But you can tell: the smoke will prevent signal passage. Really: you can see, the irradiation by laser of the enemy tank and perception by head of rocket of reflected signal (from enemy tank) - became “classical”. But the Reflex works on another way! (Reflex not put laser beam on enemy tank and rocket of Reflex not take the reflected signal)… The smoke will not help! Arcady Shipunov – the chief designer of russian’s ATGMs has told: «Use of laser-beam control system with the big energy potential and thermal-sight provides almost full security from active and passive (in the form of fighting smokes) hindrances.» But even if it not so, designers of the ATGM provide the flight continuation on straight line (to the target) after loss of the laser beam. For the supersonic rocket - 50 m is nothing! (The smock can caver 50 m near tank.)
How often do you think will it happen that you have a clear, non-interrupted line of sight on 5 Kilometers for 15 seconds at all?
You should study well about what you speak. That I know about the Reflex, I will tell you.
1. Before a shot the operator of Reflex should use laser range finder on the enemy tank.
2. Exact gaging of range is not necessary. Therefore the range finder can be used on the earth in front of the tank. (You can make it, if your enemy is Т-90 or Merkava 4 because these tanks have detectors of laser radiation.)
3. The reflex’s rocket flies in a laser beam.
4. The beam has the cone form. The operator of a reflex can move this cone.
5. The cone isn't found out by detectors of laser radiation which stand on such tanks as Т-90 and Merkava 4.
6. In “usual mode of shooting” the rocket flies precisely in the cone center. (The width of the cone can be more than 10 meters.)
7. But if on way of rocket Ganner can see clubs of dust or some objects with which rocket can be face or objects which can shield station of beam Т-90, then operator of Reflex, (before start using of this rocket) will activate “mode of shooting with altitude”. In this mode the rocket flie in top part of the cone highly over the earth.
8. The tankman can direct cone not on the tank, but above of the tank. But in the end the tankman should direct the cone center precisely on enemy tank.
9. In mode with altitude on last part of a way, the rocket automatically "falls down” in the cone middle.
10. Rocket will get the knowledge (when it is necessary to fall) yet before going from main gun, from computer of T-90 (after when operator uses laser range finder) automatically. But also the operator himself, can give this knowledge to the rocket, by hand.
11. Having fallen in the cone center, further remained distance, the rocket flies in this center of cone. At this time width of a cone can be 1 meter. (Because the big size of a cone is not necessary now)
12. If the cone center is directed to tank turel – the rocket will hit the turel. If the cone center is directed to tank glacis – the rocket will hit glacis. Gunner can move this cone. Designers of the Reflex confirm what for Reflex is not difficult from big distance to get even pillbox’s window.
13. If after falling of the rocket (to center of cone), T-90 will be destroyed by enemy tank (and now the laser station will not work), the rocket will not stop, and will continue to fly precisely forward and if on the flight line there will be the enemy tank, the rocket will hit the tank.
In regards to your estimates of armour strength and penetration ability, I would be very, very cautious with such statements. All those "RHA equivalent" are educated guesses at best, and a statement like "Refleks can destroy all Western tanks from any direction" is not very likely to be true. Noone here can verify or falsify such a claim, as the necessary data for a qualified statement is simply not available.
You not attentively read my post.
[Mod Edit: Text deleted. There is a difference between disagreement and disrespect.]
Some of your statements are outright false. You mentioned that Russian tank crews are able to target specific weakpoints in enemy armour. Apart from the fact that at 5 kilometers distance you wont be able to see any specific detail on a tank at all, this is not possible due to the flight characteristics of a SACLOS beam rider alone, all you can do as gunner is place your cross hairs dead center upon the enemy tank and let go. Even on a static target it is not possible to target one specific point.
Even from big distance, in sight of Refleks is visible where enemy tank have tower, and where is glacis. (Т-90А has good optics.) No need more details! Operator of Reflex will put rocket in glacis. On military excises Russian tankmens put the rockets exact in chose places of targets.
The rocket fly in the laser beam which can be aimed by operator of Reflex at the enemy tank or on the helicopter. This beam is called «field of management of rocket» (I translate it from Russian language). Rocket fly in center of this beam. On the Reflex`s sight this center of “field” is visible as cross. To get glacis of the enemy tank, this cross necessary put on this glacis.
This moment military scientist S.A.Dikov in the article «Military application of laser technologies» describes in this way:
«После выстрела комплекс формирует лазерное поле управления ракетой (рис. 2), состоящее из четырёх ярко выраженных квадратов. Попадая в любой из них, аппаратура ракеты “понимает”, как следует скорректировать траекторию, с тем чтобы выйти на линию выстрела в центр поля управления. Для случая, проиллюстрированного рис. 2, рули сместят ракету вниз и вправо.» («Военное применение лазерных технологий» С.А. Диков, кандидат военных наук ФГУП “Рособоронэкспорт”)
Translation:
«After a shot the complex make a laser field of management of the rocket (drawing 2), consisting (in this drawing) as four (different colours) squares. Getting to any of them, the rocket equipment “understands”, as properly to correct a trajectory to go on to shot line in the centre of the field of management. For case, which illustrated by drawing 2, rudders of rocket will displace the rocket down and to the right (to the center of cross of the four squares).»
Your statements in regards to using a Refleks to hit an enemy tank behind a building by magically steering it around that building without even seeing the enemy target is near funny. The Refleks missile neither has the maneuverability for such a feat nor does it carry in it's warhead any of the automatic targeting and ID systems necessary for such a thing. You need a direct, clear line of sight to use Refleks.
In this way I to be based on words of Alexander Diomidovich. Alexander Diomidovich - the professional, the tankman-engineer who has ended two educational tank institutions … Yet, he has military experience which he received in Afghanistan, in the Chechen Republic, and in the Near East. My be I not correct have stated his words? I now will quote them literally. Alexander Diomidovich has told the following:
«Абрамс и Леопард в ближнем бою (500-800 метров, да и более) не сможет поразить наш танк, если между нами лесок, отдельные деревья и постройки… А это, чаще всего так бывает… Снаряд просто врежется в преграду, не долетев до нашего танка. Или просто, не успеет произвести выстрел, от часто мелькающего нашего танка между преградами… А, вот наш Т-90Б это сделает в лёгкую…!!! Как это будет, напишу вкратце. Наводчик заряжает ракету (на что уйдёт несколько секунд) и, включив режим возвышения, делает выстрел в ту сторону, где только что промелькнул между деревьев танк противника. Ракета, после выхода из канала ствола, резко набирает высоту и летит в сторону цели значительно выше всех преград (деревьев, отдельных построек и.т.д.). Не вдаваясь в дальнейшие подробности скажу так, что при подлёте к выбранной цели, ракета автоматически пикирует и, поражает цель… И такие ракетно-пушечные танки у нас уже были на вооружении ещё в 1980 году…!!! ТРИДЦАТЬ ЛЕТ ТОМУ НАЗАД…!!! Я в Германии в 1980 году получил новенькую роту таких танков… Правда тогда ракета работала до 4-х километров… Америкозы до сих пор не могут создать подобные системы…!!!! Пытаются но, они далеки от совершенства…»
Translation:
« Abrams and Leopard in near fight (500-800 meters, and more) can't hit our tank if between us is grove, separate trees and constructions… And it, more often so happens… The shell simply hit a barrier, without having reached our tank. Or simply the tank, not be in time to make a shot, from often flashing our tank between barriers … But ours Т-90B it will make easily…!!! As it will be, I will write in brief. The gunner charges the gun by rocket (on what some seconds will leave) and, having activated altitude mode, does a shot in that side where the tank of the opponent has just flown between trees. The rocket, after exit from the gun, sharply gains height and flies to target with much above all barriers (the trees, separate constructions...). Without pressing in the further details I will tell: at approach to the chosen target, the rocket automatically dives and hits the target… And such rocket-gun tanks we already have on arms in 1980…!!! THIRTY YEARS AGO…!!! I in Germany in 1980 have received a new company of such tanks… But in 1980 the rocket worked to 4 kilometers… Americans till now can't create similar systems…!!!! They try but they are far from perfection…»
My conclusion:
Certainly, rockets it not the main weapon of T-90, but it is good support for main weapon - deadly devise for enemy…
In regards to you quoting the US-tankman. No one here said anything like "Russian tanks are not good". Nor did anyone say that Refleks is not good. What Waylander and me try to clarify is that Mindstorm and you have wrong ideas of how Refleks is intended to be used on the battlefield.
We are not bashing Russian tanks, we are speaking on the part of Russian engineers. You are giving Refleks a role and capabilities that were never planned by it's Russian designers.
Excuse, but what speak russian’s engineers you don't know. But I know (something). I have given words of a russian tankman-engineer above.
