The new Gap.

[SteelTiger 177]

Today when we think of a "gap" we think of a place at the mall were everyone wants the newest jeans or shirts or on a more serious note the difference in number of bombers or icbm's that U.S.or Russia. maintained.But a new "gap" has emmerged a fighter gap.This gap has been caused as the result of the retirement of a large numbers of F-15s and F-16s in the USAF(mostly from the Reserve and ANG sqns) and no replacement being fielded.in fact in reguard to the F-15s this would've handled had SecDef Gates not prematurely ended production of the F/A22 Raptor at 183 insteadof letting it continue to 380(and potentially 500-600 the additonal 120- 220 being the StrikeRaptor intened to replace the F-15E for deepstrike missons and defense suppression or destruction) and what was the solution in the mind of Mr. Gates to upgrade the F-15 and F-16 fighters.I hate to say this but it it not a good solution given the state of things any such "upgrade" would quickly wareout given the commitment to Operations Noble Eagle,OEF and OIF as well any potential nfz(no fly zone) missions in Libya.I call on whomever succeeds SecDef Gates to reverse to the decision to end Raptor productiuon at 183 planes and continue on to numbers that I suggested and maybe consider exporting the Raptor to Japan and maybe to Singapore or Taiwan and fianlly on the Navy end of things I hope Gates replacedment will do nothing to interfere with the Boeing first fighter program the FAXX(The F-15 and The F/A18 weren't made by Boeing oringally)

 

[Feros Ferio]

Today when we think of a "gap" we think of a place at the mall were everyone wants the newest jeans or shirts or on a more serious note the difference in number of bombers or icbm's that U.S.or Russia. maintained.But a new "gap" has emmerged a fighter gap.This gap has been caused as the result of the retirement of a large numbers of F-15s and F-16s in the USAF(mostly from the Reserve and ANG sqns) and no replacement being fielded.in fact in reguard to the F-15s this would've handled had SecDef Gates not prematurely ended production of the F/A22 Raptor at 183 insteadof letting it continue to 380(and potentially 500-600 the additonal 120- 220 being the StrikeRaptor intened to replace the F-15E for deepstrike missons and defense suppression or destruction) and what was the solution in the mind of Mr. Gates to upgrade the F-15 and F-16 fighters.I hate to say this but it it not a good solution given the state of things any such "upgrade" would quickly wareout given the commitment to Operations Noble Eagle,OEF and OIF as well any potential nfz(no fly zone) missions in Libya.I call on whomever succeeds SecDef Gates to reverse to the decision to end Raptor productiuon at 183 planes and continue on to numbers that I suggested and maybe consider exporting the Raptor to Japan and maybe to Singapore or Taiwan and fianlly on the Navy end of things I hope Gates replacedment will do nothing to interfere with the Boeing first fighter program the FAXX(The F-15 and The F/A18 weren't made by Boeing oringally)

I agree with your statement in that I think the US should produce a few more F22's. However, I strongly disagree with your statement about the export of the F22's. From what I've read (and heard) this fighter is far and away the most advanced one in operation on the planet, in terms of its fighter to fighter capabilites especially. If the US wants to maintain its air superiority, it would be foolish to go handing out this sort of capability, even if it is to its allies. Especially since there isn't even a major war going on which would necessitate this sort of technology transfer, in order to boost said allies.

The US is already involved in the JSF 35 program with a number of allies, and has been in talks with a few others (Japan too I believe) to see if they would be interested in getting on board. The F35 is also an incredibly advanced fighter, maybe second best in terms of its fighter to fighter capabilities, but still top tier. I would say even in terms of this, they must be very careful who they start selling them too (apparently, the F35 has a bit of tech on it that may even be applied to F22's later on so I've heard).

Why on earth would the US spend all the time and money to develop such a superior weapon system then just start sending the technology to everyone who happens to be an ally at this point in time? It just doesn't make sense on a strategic level. It must retain the most high end kit for itself.

Oh and just for the record, I'm not a U.S. citizen, nor do I live in the U.S.

 

[Feanor]

I call on whomever succeeds SecDef Gates to reverse to the decision to end Raptor productiuon at 183 planes and continue on to numbers that I suggested and maybe consider exporting the Raptor to Japan and maybe to Singapore or Taiwan and fianlly on the Navy end of things I hope Gates replacedment will do nothing to interfere with the Boeing first fighter program the FAXX(The F-15 and The F/A18 weren't made by Boeing oringally)

Yeah, that's not going to happen. We're in the hole financially as is, Congress is desperately trying to find something they can cut from the budget, and you're suggesting tens of billions on new fighter jets? Where's the money going to come from?

 

[SteelTiger 177]

Here's why

Why should we?If you've haven't heard the PLAAF just unveiled the new J-20 fighter and also Russia is developing a stealth fighter as well and both could potentially sell these warbirds to countries such as Iran,Syria,Cuba,Venezeula to name a few.Also we need not make sure we maintain a STRONG defense industry by developing such aircraft as the Raptor and the new FAXX fighter that Boeing has on the drawing board for the U.S.Navy.These programs would serve to help our economy by keeping many skilled engineers and techs employed here in the U.S rather than going oversees and as far exporting I can think of one nation that would love the Raptor and that's Israel because if the Iranians or Syria get the J-20 I see them using it against Israel.If you want to save defense money try ending the peacekeeping missions in the Balkans because i see those two misssins as a drain.

 

[Feanor]

Why should we?If you've haven't heard the PLAAF just unveiled the new J-20 fighter

You mean they unveiled a new airframe, right? Because we've yet to see them test a fighter-jet AESA, modern OLS, or even modern engines. Either way, what's your point? The J-20 is ~a decade away from IOC. When it reaches IOC it will most likely be far behind the F-35.

and also Russia is developing a stealth fighter as well and both could potentially sell these warbirds to countries such as Iran,Syria,Cuba,Venezeula to name a few.

And what would that change? They still wouldn't have the necessary support assets to make them work. Not to mention the planes are still (I repeat myself) far behind the F-35.

Also we need not make sure we maintain a STRONG defense industry by developing such aircraft as the Raptor and the new FAXX fighter that Boeing has on the drawing board for the U.S.Navy.These programs would serve to help our economy by keeping many skilled engineers and techs employed here in the U.S rather than going oversees

Where's the money going to come from?

and as far exporting I can think of one nation that would love the Raptor and that's Israel because if the Iranians or Syria get the J-20 I see them using it against Israel.If you want to save defense money try ending the peacekeeping missions in the Balkans because i see those two misssins as a drain.

They're a drop in a bucket next to the cost of restarting F-22 production to the 650 airframes mark. Never mind the cost of a new fighter.

So once again, where's the money going to come from? Nevermind that the benefit of said fighter would be questionable.

 

[dragonfire]

I can think of one nation that would love the Raptor and that's Israel because if the Iranians or Syria get the J-20 I see them using it against Israel.If you want to save defense money try ending the peacekeeping missions in the Balkans because i see those two misssins as a drain.

Israel is going to get the F-35 Lightning II which will ensure their security concerns being addressed well before the J-20 or the Russian Pak-Fa will reach their neighborhood. 20-40 aircraft will serve their needs pretty neatly

 

[T.C.P]

Look by the time the J-20 is production ready the F-35 will in service in good numbers. The US wants to purchase what, 1700 F-35s and thats more fighters that the Russian, Inidan and Chinese air force fighters combined.

Like Feanor said cash is an issue, do not underestimate the huge costs of reopening a closed production line.

Edit- my count of Chinese and Indian fighters exclude all obsolete third gen and 3.5 gen air craft.

 

[Feros Ferio]

Why should we?If you've haven't heard the PLAAF just unveiled the new J-20 fighter and also Russia is developing a stealth fighter as well and both could potentially sell these warbirds to countries such as Iran,Syria,Cuba,Venezeula to name a few.Also we need not make sure we maintain a STRONG defense industry by developing such aircraft as the Raptor and the new FAXX fighter that Boeing has on the drawing board for the U.S.Navy.These programs would serve to help our economy by keeping many skilled engineers and techs employed here in the U.S rather than going oversees and as far exporting I can think of one nation that would love the Raptor and that's Israel because if the Iranians or Syria get the J-20 I see them using it against Israel.If you want to save defense money try ending the peacekeeping missions in the Balkans because i see those two misssins as a drain.

While I'll admit, USA/CHINA/RUSSIAN relations are far from smooth all the time, I think its a bit pre-mature to start thinking in a neo-Cold War framework when it comes to international affairs. For either of these countries to run around handing out advanced stealth fighters to countries who are known for their anti US stance (though I'm not sure Cuba is in the same category as Iran) would probably be seen as aggression against the USA. I don't think either of these countries wishes to start down this path anytime soon.

FurthermoreAs Feanor stated, the J-20 is a ways off, and when it does come, it wont be as advanced as the F35. I believe the Russian/Indian PAK/FA (I believe thats the designation) is further along but again wont be as advanced when it does come out. So even if they did want to cause a ruckus and go around handing out this sort of tech to a country like Iran, US allies would already have a more advanced plane.

Remember, Russia even halted the sale of S-300's to Iran because of a UN weapons embargo, which I'm pretty sure was initiated by the US in the Security council. Why would they do this then turn around and sell them stealth fighters?

 

[Feanor]

It's interesting that the list of countries includes Venezuela. I get that Hugo Chavez isn't friends with America but if we start expanding the list of potential problematic customers to every anti-US regime on the planet, then you're going to border on paranoia.

Syria's IADS, interestingly enough, is so outdated that even the injection of a few dozen PAK-FA (in the past 2025 timeframe, I would imagine) would hardly make a difference.

 

[SteelTiger 177]

Some of you that responded asked where the money will come from?First you end the peacekeeping misssions in Bosnia and Kosovo,Second you don't fund programs that give drivers licenses or health and education assitance to illegal aliens in the the U.S.

 

[Feanor]

Some of you that responded asked where the money will come from?First you end the peacekeeping misssions in Bosnia and Kosovo,Second you don't fund programs that give drivers licenses or health and education assitance to illegal aliens in the the U.S.

Are you suggesting that the US increase the military budget to accommodate these programs? The US military budget is close to the rest of the planet's combined. Further increases are hardly necessary.

 

[Haavarla]

Steeltiger@
There is no way in hell you can look at the current /future threat enviroment out there, and NOT pay attention to the US foreign dept and economy.
These two are very connected..

I'll dare say Gates cuts & axe is the right thing, only thing i can put my finger on is that he should have started this earlier.

You are not making any sense by claiming RuAF and PLAAF got their own 5th gen program working, so USAF must get trillions of $ for re-opening closed fact lines F-22.
The F-22 was a cold war assets, it is not need in any more numbers.
Cause the cold war is gone.

Just look at RuAF, its in dire need of a modernization and restructuring.
I guess the same could be said about PLAAF too.
The capabilities of both RuAF and PLAAF is so inferior to USAF it is not even worth debateing this.
Never mind some small countries like Venezuela.. what are they gonna do if they ever proccure a squad of Pak-Fa?
First off they need airial tanker and AWACS capabilities for the Pak-Fa to by used offensively.
And even if Hugo the clovn ever get some thing like the above, USA is still to far away in any case..

 

[Palnatoke]

While I agree with the overridding importance of the cash issue and the fact that the millitary power of the US is - as of now - so overwhelming that only one nation - China - can, and that in a distant future, even dream of balancing it.

Eventhough with the rise in Chineese millitary cababilities, the US as well as Europe, should have an interest in arming China's two main rivals; Japan and India, so that they can balance out China.
With a little bit of luck all will see that armament above a certain level is plain stupid and a waste of money that could have been used on schools, luxury and expensive cars (expensive cars are not luxury, they are a need).

And why not sell the F22 to Japan, maybe even Taiwan?

 

[T.C.P]

While I agree with the overridding importance of the cash issue and the fact that the millitary power of the US is - as of now - so overwhelming that only one nation - China - can, and that in a distant future, even dream of balancing it.

Eventhough with the rise in Chineese millitary cababilities, the US as well as Europe, should have an interest in arming China's two main rivals; Japan and India, so that they can balance out China.
With a little bit of luck all will see that armament above a certain level is plain stupid and a waste of money that could have been used on schools, luxury and expensive cars (expensive cars are not luxury, they are a need).

And why not sell the F22 to Japan, maybe even Taiwan?

The US won't sell the F-22 to any other country as congress will not allow, discussing why would be pointless. Japan and India are arming themselves already, to match up to China's military, China poses a bigger threat to them than to the US.

 

[SteelTiger 177]

China is a threat to the U.S. well as to Taiwain and India.Lets not forget a bout a year ago the PLAN threaten a U.S.Navy surveying ship they've also have tried to disrupt our satellites in orbit by using a laser beam to "dazzle" their sensors.To me I would view that as threatening.

 

[SteelTiger 177]

I don't consider money spent on our defense a "waste" of money.Giving Illegal education assitance and drivers licenses now there's the waste.

 

[Feanor]

I don't consider money spent on our defense a "waste" of money.Giving Illegal education assitance and drivers licenses now there's the waste.

Defense isn't something abstract. It's something particular. What "defense" is, is outlined in the military doctrine. Any military spending not necessary to achieve what is written there is a waste. Similar to buying 15 hamburgers when you only need 2 to satisfy your hunger.

 

[T.C.P]

China is a threat to the U.S. well as to Taiwain and India.Lets not forget a bout a year ago the PLAN threaten a U.S.Navy surveying ship they've also have tried to disrupt our satellites in orbit by using a laser beam to "dazzle" their sensors.To me I would view that as threatening.

I never said that China wasn't a threat to the US, I said Japan and India being more geographically closer to China are more threatened by it.

 

[Haavarla]

I don't consider money spent on our defense a "waste" of money.Giving Illegal education assitance and drivers licenses now there's the waste.

If building more F-22 is a waste of money(and it is!), then it is A WASTE OF MONEY.
It is as simple as that.
You should have more fait with your leaders and their abillity to take hard and important decissions..
Just as all the other defence programs getting axed by gates.
It means other defence programs get to go ahead without beeing disrupted by cuts etc etc..
It allso means US will have more leverage to try to do something about the economy as i mention earlier.

 

[Palnatoke]

The US won't sell the F-22 to any other country as congress will not allow, discussing why would be pointless. Japan and India are arming themselves already, to match up to China's military, China poses a bigger threat to them than to the US.

Given that China is relatively militarely weak compared to it's economical strength and that China in the future will most likely grow stronger economically also compared to it's near rivals, my point is that China is in a position in which it makes sense to increase it's military strength, as it will likely shift the balance to China's advantage and the required investment seems not larger than China can afford it.

This in my view is a good reason for a country to increase it's "defense" spendings.

So those of us, not all too happy about such a swift in power-balance should think about ways to make it less worthwhile for China to increase it's millitary strength. F.eks. by selling Japan the most advanced kit that we have.
The task of building an airforce to threat Japan, would arguable be made much more difficult if Japan had XXX F22.
If the task is difficult enough, then China wouldn't try to compete (not being worthwhile) and we don't have to start an arms race - or rather a "Catch up race" by China.
This should be in US interest.

- I am aware that Congress outlaws sales of the F22 and can only say that it's a small comfort that my country isn't the only one, cursed with brainless and un-imaginative politicians.