anything like the 137 Navy 45 Army Abe quoted earlier?I reckon it would be a good way to get your career nutz cut off...
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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abe is in a position to say what he wants as he's not inside the tent.
he can exercise journo judgement and is outside of internal management
if abe is quoting public estimates thats fine, if hes's quoting with confidence and it's privileged then its an issue for his source - not abe.
anyone quoting privileged numbers who's inside the tent is putting themselves at risk
basically, everyone inside the tent knows the rules. (and this isn't a slash at StoresBasher, its a comment in general about the realities of what some can say in an open forum)
Abe has access to some "nice" sources though....
Those numbers are from the amphib brief from LWC last year (Lt.Col. Hawkins). They are online in a .ppt somewhere.
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there you go then, absolutely safe as they're public domain once uncontrolled
the odd thing is that even when numbers are public domain, if the source material is retained on a rated network, it inherits that networks release caveats (applies to those who have it if inside the tent) doesn't apply obviously to others
its therefore quite possible then that a public briefing thats uncontrolled may well be regarded as privileged if its control /release was from that network
eg I've seen a number of times unclass material that has inherited a higher rating due to where its come from - and its the same data
its an absolute nightmare
Foudre is quite different from Largs Bay. She's designed mainly for amphibious assault, with a huge dock able to take two very large (59 metre, 750 ton) or up to eight smaller landing craft. This compromises her cargo carrying capacity, but that was thought an acceptable trade-off because of her primary role. She's a bit smaller, & over 15 years older.
Largs Bay is optimised for carrying cargo & vehicles. She has a fairly small dock, meant to ease offloading when a port isn't available. IIRC it'll hold one 30 metre LCU Mk 10.
I expect Foudre would do, but she probably isn't ideal. Largs Bay seems much closer to what the RAN wants.
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
Foudre is a 21 year old ship. And I assume the first thing that would be required upon taking ownership would be to replace every label on the ship with a replacement in English. Sounds like a fun job.
I'd be against Foudre simply because of its age though. Any idea what sort of service life the French design their amphibs for?
I'd be against Foudre simply because of its age though. Any idea what sort of service life the French design their amphibs for?
My bug bear is FMS and ITAR, some of the stuff covered is so basic you wouldn't believe but once flagged it becomes almost impossible to access and use. Just try getting an independent third partly design evaluation to comply with safety regulations when the item, no matter how commonly used outside defence, is part of FMS equipment.
When I was in the US I was dealing with some ITARs issues with Wookie. Technically as soon as I came back to Aust I was not even allowed to speak about the capability without getting State Dept clearance - down to mentioning the name. The docs I signed were borderline odious.
I could say its name etc on CONUS to US citizens etc... but as soon as those circumstances were changed I could not discuss it with anyone - despite an awareness in australia about said capability anyway as australia was working on its own solution which was just regarded as Comm-in-Conf and covered by standard NDA's
I was just suggesting Foudre as an alternative, it would bring its own unique problems, but would be suitable for the role.
If someone else buys Largs, then we may be looking at Foudre as an alternative (short term?). Obviously it would have to be a lot cheaper for us to concider it. From Swerves numbers a 40 year life does not seem uncommon.
If the Largs was taken off the table, I wonder if Spain would offer us a Galicia class, and then new build one for herself (as spain is in reasonable shape in sealift). Keeping Natavia busy after the LHD build would seem to benefit their industry.
The requirement seems to be written around a bay class, Largs does seem ideal. Being one of the biggest of its type and made for the RN with ideas shared by the RAN.
If someone else buys Largs, then we may be looking at Foudre as an alternative (short term?). Obviously it would have to be a lot cheaper for us to concider it. From Swerves numbers a 40 year life does not seem uncommon.
If the Largs was taken off the table, I wonder if Spain would offer us a Galicia class, and then new build one for herself (as spain is in reasonable shape in sealift). Keeping Natavia busy after the LHD build would seem to benefit their industry.
The requirement seems to be written around a bay class, Largs does seem ideal. Being one of the biggest of its type and made for the RN with ideas shared by the RAN.
If the RAN can't acquire the Largs Bay then it doesn't need to run out and find another ship that fits the sealift requirement. There are TWO issues at hand: 1. rapid acquistion of AN(Y) amphibious lift capacity to replace the current clapped out fleet, 2. acquire a sealift ship to support the two LHDs for seabasing. Number 1 is pressing, number 2 is not. The Largs Bay happens to meet both 1 and 2 which is why it is so attractive. But if we can't acquire the Largs Bay then it is back to issue no. 1 and the sealfit ship can go back to the end of the que.
Since the Foudre is basically on the market it could be an option for a gap fill amphibious capability for the 2011-2015 timeframe. Since it has been the flagship of French amphibious capability until the last five years one would imagine its mechanical standard is higher than the 3rd rate LSTs we brought from the US in the 90s. However that the Argentines rejected it does not bode well for its condition. Though that could have been a financial decision.
Since the Foudre is basically on the market it could be an option for a gap fill amphibious capability for the 2011-2015 timeframe. Since it has been the flagship of French amphibious capability until the last five years one would imagine its mechanical standard is higher than the 3rd rate LSTs we brought from the US in the 90s. However that the Argentines rejected it does not bode well for its condition. Though that could have been a financial decision.
Rumor has it they rejected it because they wanted a local build.. The argies haven't exactly be flash with the cash, so the real reason may be a bit of a mystery. The french have the mistrals now so I can see why they don't have to hold onto it. But we would be buying an older ship.
But our amphib gap fill in service requirements are really 2011-2015 without a major refit. If the Foudre hull and machinery can provide that then lets Cougar up. There aren't many other options out there for a Milspec amphib ship.
I don't think there is a plan 'B', if we don't get the Bay.
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To my inexpert eye, Foudre would be inferior to a Bay for the specified role (though better at some others), but would be perfectly acceptable as a gap-filler, as long as (as Abraham says) she doesn't need a refit soon. One of the Italian Santi LPDs (coming spare soon) would also do as a gap-filler if available in time, but I think not as a long-term solution. A Galicia would do very well indeed, but AFAIK isn't on offer, though perhaps something could be worked out.
Confirmation...
Bay Class Auxiliary Ship Alternative Landing Ship Logistic (ALSL) - Naval Technology
"FLOODABLE DECK
A floodable dock capable of operating one LCU Mk 10 utility landing craft is installed in the stern. A Mexeflote is secured to each side of the ship. The ship can also carry and operate two LCVP Mk 5 vehicle / personnel landing craft."
SA
Call for heads to roll over rust-bucket Navy
By Hayden Cooper
Updated 20 minutes ago
HMAS Toruk at anchor in Simpson Harbour
The Tobruk has been repaired and is back on 48 hours notice for service. (Australian Defence Force)
The Federal Opposition has called for the Chief of Navy to be sacked over a capability gap in Australia's Defence Force.
HMAS Tobruk is the Navy's last option for heavy-lift troop transport and would not have been available if called on to serve in the wake of Cyclone Yasi last month.
The ABC's 7.30 has confirmed corrosion on the ship was so serious that parts of the hull were only two millimetres thick.
The Tobruk was urgently repaired and is now back on 48 hours notice for service.
It is understood a steel plate was welded to the hull in an emergency patch-up job, but more work is required in the future.
HMAS Manoora, Kanimbla and Tobruk are used to transport troops, equipment and supplies on Defence Force deployments.
The ships have served in the Persian Gulf, East Timor and on numerous disaster relief efforts.
But as Cyclone Yasi approached Queensland last month, none of the ships was available.
HMAS Manoora had been decommissioned early due to significant wear and tear, while HMAS Kanimbla was undergoing 18 months of repairs.
HMAS Tobruk was also out of action.
Former Army officer and defence analyst with the Lowy Institute, James Brown, says it is a serious capability gap.
"We've been caught short. We've got a large capability gap in our Navy. We've got a large capability gap in our Defence Force and it leaves us with the question of how did this happen and how are we going to fix it," he said.
Two replacement ships - Canberra-class landing helicopter docks - are not due to enter service until 2014 and 2015.
In the meantime the Federal Government is considering leasing HMS Largs Bay from the UK navy.
In the leadup to Cyclone Yasi, Defence Minister Stephen Smith was repeatedly told HMAS Tobruk was ready to respond if needed.
But it never was.
Opposition spokesman David Johnston says the Government was misled.
"The fact is the poor minister, and I again say I've got some sympathy for him, has been totally ambushed by the sudden revelation that he's got none of those vessels available," Senator Johnston says.
He says the Chief of Navy must be held responsible for passing on the incorrect advice.
"I want some accountability. I think the minister wants some accountability. He's got to go and get it."
"He's got to analyse when someone says something to him, if it's not true then the person who said it has to bear some responsibility."
"If the Chief of Navy is giving advice on such an important issue as amphibious ship lift in the face of a serious cyclone in North Queensland and that information is not true, I think it speaks for itself."
The Chief of Navy, Vice Admiral Russ Crane, and the Chief of the Defence Force, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston, were approached for an interview but declined to comment.
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"Invoke fan boy RAGE!" :flaming HMS largs bay = ABC News EPIC FAIL ... ok breath Puss , breath
By Hayden Cooper
Updated 20 minutes ago
HMAS Toruk at anchor in Simpson Harbour
The Tobruk has been repaired and is back on 48 hours notice for service. (Australian Defence Force)
The Federal Opposition has called for the Chief of Navy to be sacked over a capability gap in Australia's Defence Force.
HMAS Tobruk is the Navy's last option for heavy-lift troop transport and would not have been available if called on to serve in the wake of Cyclone Yasi last month.
The ABC's 7.30 has confirmed corrosion on the ship was so serious that parts of the hull were only two millimetres thick.
The Tobruk was urgently repaired and is now back on 48 hours notice for service.
It is understood a steel plate was welded to the hull in an emergency patch-up job, but more work is required in the future.
HMAS Manoora, Kanimbla and Tobruk are used to transport troops, equipment and supplies on Defence Force deployments.
The ships have served in the Persian Gulf, East Timor and on numerous disaster relief efforts.
But as Cyclone Yasi approached Queensland last month, none of the ships was available.
HMAS Manoora had been decommissioned early due to significant wear and tear, while HMAS Kanimbla was undergoing 18 months of repairs.
HMAS Tobruk was also out of action.
Former Army officer and defence analyst with the Lowy Institute, James Brown, says it is a serious capability gap.
"We've been caught short. We've got a large capability gap in our Navy. We've got a large capability gap in our Defence Force and it leaves us with the question of how did this happen and how are we going to fix it," he said.
Two replacement ships - Canberra-class landing helicopter docks - are not due to enter service until 2014 and 2015.
In the meantime the Federal Government is considering leasing HMS Largs Bay from the UK navy.
In the leadup to Cyclone Yasi, Defence Minister Stephen Smith was repeatedly told HMAS Tobruk was ready to respond if needed.
But it never was.
Opposition spokesman David Johnston says the Government was misled.
"The fact is the poor minister, and I again say I've got some sympathy for him, has been totally ambushed by the sudden revelation that he's got none of those vessels available," Senator Johnston says.
He says the Chief of Navy must be held responsible for passing on the incorrect advice.
"I want some accountability. I think the minister wants some accountability. He's got to go and get it."
"He's got to analyse when someone says something to him, if it's not true then the person who said it has to bear some responsibility."
"If the Chief of Navy is giving advice on such an important issue as amphibious ship lift in the face of a serious cyclone in North Queensland and that information is not true, I think it speaks for itself."
The Chief of Navy, Vice Admiral Russ Crane, and the Chief of the Defence Force, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston, were approached for an interview but declined to comment.
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"Invoke fan boy RAGE!" :flaming HMS largs bay = ABC News EPIC FAIL ... ok breath Puss , breath
Leasing no, buying yes."Invoke fan boy RAGE!" :flaming HMS largs bay = ABC News EPIC FAIL ... ok breath Puss , breath
My "rather small" point was that the pinko's at the ABC called her HMS not RFA
From the Defence Minister today.
I will further pursue with Dr Fox the prospect of Australia leasing or purchasing a Bay Class amphibious vessel from the UK.
Extract from minister.defence.gov.au/Smithtpl.cfm?CurrentId=11563 Australian Government, Department of Defence - Stephen Smith MP
WRT; Visit to London and NATO/ ISAF Defence Ministers’ Meeting in Brussels.
I will further pursue with Dr Fox the prospect of Australia leasing or purchasing a Bay Class amphibious vessel from the UK.
Extract from minister.defence.gov.au/Smithtpl.cfm?CurrentId=11563 Australian Government, Department of Defence - Stephen Smith MP
WRT; Visit to London and NATO/ ISAF Defence Ministers’ Meeting in Brussels.
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