T-90 in Comparison to Western Armour

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DavidDCM

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro

Mindstorm

Banned Member
What he means is that the article is a fake and that in truth there is no such article in the paper issue of Jane's International Defence Review July 1997.

Whether that is true or not I don't know but it should be easy to check for anyone who has access to Jane's back issues.

However, the article is on Jane's website, which definitely is a point:


Of course it is on Jane's website ...........if someone would post even only the name of any authorative study or analysis in which those Jane's articles are cited (or even only the tests of Held or Ness) would fill 30 -40 pages !!!

I truly cannot understand as in 2011 someone ,with even only ,by far, a serious interest or specific knowledges in the sector, can still be unaware of one of the most famous and cited Jane's article on '90 years (together with the other article of '96 which i have cited) for no other reason that those tests ,conducted by a German equipe in a first istance , and a Pentagon's equipe subsequently provided for the NATO military scientifical community an unavoidable, experimental proof of the well knowed Soviet habit at hard disinformation with theirs export models .


I was certain that Waylander was joking , but after a while i have observed it accepting the apologies on this subject of another poster without reveal its joke, so i have started to believe that it was serious.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
If it's on Janes website, and is claimed to have appeared in that publication by Janes:

Publication Title Jane's International Defence Review
Publication date Jul 01, 1997
Then I would take it at face value, at least until we know otherwise.
 

DavidDCM

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Of course it is on Jane's website ...........if someone would post even only the name of any authorative study or analysis in which those Jane's articles are cited (or even only the tests of Held or Ness) would fill 30 -40 pages !!!

I truly cannot understand as in 2011 someone ,with even only ,by far, a serious interest or specific knowledges in the sector, can still be unaware of one of the most famous and cited Jane's article on '90 years (together with the other article of '96 which i have cited) for no other reason that those tests ,conducted by a German equipe in a first istance , and a Pentagon's equipe subsequently provided for the NATO military scientifical community an unavoidable, experimental proof of the well knowed Soviet habit at hard disinformation with theirs export models .


I was certain that Waylander was joking , but after a while i have observed it accepting the apologies on this subject of another poster without reveal its joke, so i have started to believe that it was serious.
Yeah, alright, we've got your point and now calm down. Boiling your blood because of a internet discussion is never worth it, and whether this article actually exists or not or whether what it says is true or not will not change the course of our world, so lay back and relax and you'll be most welcome on defencetalk.com.
 

Mindstorm

Banned Member
Yeah, alright, we've got your point and now calm down. Boiling your blood because of a internet discussion is never worth it, and whether this article actually exists or not or whether what it says is true or not will not change the course of our world, so lay back and relax and you'll be most welcome on defencetalk.com.

I am sorry for having debuted here on defencetalk.com with a first intervention with an apparent "strong" tone , it was not mine intention .

It is surely true that reality, in its substance, is never changed by information , but is equally true that information (or lack of it) can ,conversely, change drammatically its perception ,therefore it is very important to don't let twisted or warped informations to spread ,because them generate ,in the same way warped or twisted opinions which like you well know , just on those subjects are very commons (......unsubstantiated platitudes and metropolitan legends) .

In any case ,thanks for the welcome, i am truly happy to be here .
 

peschernik

New Member
But if Soviets were counting on operational level breakthroughs, what advantages their tanks had against Western in this angle? What is the specific of this kind of war operations? Soviet tanks had to take part in this attack in two roles. First, when motorized infantry had to break holes in NATOs defense, tanks should help them (in front of every motorized company there was a tanks platoon). Second, tanks were planned to be flinged in this holes to destroy NATOs communications and rear.

Let's suppose that the second role was more important. We need to compose a list of requirements for tank, which mission is to take part in such operational level breakthroughs.
1) Manoeuvrability and shipping quality (because of Soviet vans could capture only 60 tons not more);
2) High speed;
3) Autonomous (to have an opportunity to fight far from their bases);
4) Ergonomically (crew need a very comfortable tank because of they almost lived their for a long term);
5) Good devices for reconnaissance and information acquisition to coordinate with their activity;
6) Let's suppose that its electronics, thermals, gun and armour are not so important (but I'm sure they are important anyway).

In which components of this list Soviet tanks were good?
Manoeuvrability? Similar as Western.
Speed? Similar.
Reliability? More than doubtful (just look at Soviet cars and you will understand everything :D).
Ergonomic? As one Russian general said, after two hours in soviet tank you lose 80 % of your physiological abilities :). The volume of T-72/80/84/90s turrets is near 2,5 m3, the same for the Leo II – 5 m3.
Reconnaissance and information acquisition opportunities? Weak optics, no thermals (don’t know about quality of French ones, but now we are talking about Soviet tactics and tanks).
The advantages were weight and price only. I don’t know the exact price for T-90, but comparable Ukrainian T-84 costs 3.5 mln. $ and Russians press was writing about dumping from Ukrainian side. Suppose that their price is the same. The price of Abrams is 6,9 mln. $, Leo II – less than 6 mln., Merkava IV – 5 mln. $. The fact is, ex-soviet tanks are almost as cheaper, as lighter.
You repeat myths about tanks of USSR.
«Reconnaissance and information acquisition opportunities? Weak optics, no thermals.» USSR optics was very good. No thermals? USSR uz night vision devices from very old time, for example: IKN-8 (ИКН-8) night vision device for tank Т-34-85 (1944).

High speed, Autonomous, Good devices, Armor, Armament.
Tanks of cold war:

TM60 Patton (Produced 1960-1987)
Gun 105 mm. Armor: vs KE Turret 210 Hull front:170-250, vs CE Turret: 250
Night sight device, night vision device, laser rangefinder and electronic fire control.
Max. operational range 500 km. Speed 48 km/h (road)
Leopard 1 (1965)
Gun 105 mm. Armor: vs KE Turret: 180-190 Mantle: 230 Glacis:140 Lower front hull: 120 Turret: 200-270, vs CE Turret: 200-270
Operational range 600 km (on road) Speed 62 km/h

T-64
Gun 125 mm
Armor: According to a declassified CIA report from 1984, the US then assessed that the T-64A and T-64B had the same protection level of 370-440mm vs KE and 500-575mm vs CE. The T-64 was designed to be protected against all 1960s 105mm ammunition. BTVT estimates T-64A max as glacis 335mm vs KE/450mm vs CE, turret 410mm vs KE/450mm vs CE. GSPO estimates T-64B as 380-450mm versus KE and 500-560mm versus CE. BTVT estimates T-64B as 350-500mm versus KE and 450-600mm versus CE.
PN-1-49-23 night sight, night vision TBN-4PA for the driver and a TNP-165A for the tank leader,
TPD-43B (ТПД-43Б) sight - laser rangefinder, cross-wind sensor, ballistic calculator, navigation device. ERA Kontakt-1.
Operational range 700 km (road, with external tanks). Speed 60 km/h

T-72
Gun 125 mm
Armor (T-72B & S w/K-1 ERA): vs KE Turret: 280-550 Glacis: 485 Lower front hull: 250 vs CE Turret: 580-850 Glacis: 670-910 Lower front hull: 250. BTVT estimates T-72B max as glacis 485mm vs KE/900mm vs CE; turret 540mm vs KE/900mm vs CE.
night sight device, night vision device, laser rangefinder and electronic fire control, navigation device, devices for underwater driving of the tank in a river (not more than 1000 m).
Operational range 700 km (road, with external tanks). Speed 60 km/h

M1 Аbrams (1981)
Gun 105 mm
Armor: vs KE Turret: 400 Glacis: 400, vs CE Turret & Glacis:700-800.
Operational range 480 km with NBC system: 565 km. Speed Road: 72 km/h
M1A1 (1985) Gun 120 mm. Armor: vs KE Mantle & Turret: 450 Glacis: 350-490 Lower front hull:430-470, vs CE Turret: 800 Glacis:510-800 Lower front hull: 570-790
Leopard 2 (In service 1979-present)
Gun 120 mm. Armor: vs KE Turret: 550-600 Glacis: 250-300, vs CE Turret: 800
Operational range 550 km. Speed 72 km/h

T-80U
Gun 125 mm
Armor: BTVT estimates T80U w/K-5 max glacis 800mm vs KE, turret 860mm vs KE; turret 1200mm vs CE glacis 1100mm vs CE
1A46 fire control system includes a laser range finder, a ballistics computer, and a more advanced 1G46 gunner's main sights, as well as thermal imaging sights. ERA Kontakt 5.
Operational range 600 km (road, with external tanks). Speed 80 km/h
T-80U(M) TO1-PO2 Agava gunner's thermal imaging sight.

Reliability? Simplicity in use and reliability are known qualities of weapons of the USSR.

Old tanks of the USSR perfectly work even now. 40 years after their production. (War in Georgia. Only old T62\64 and T-72 was there.)
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I stand corrected and am sorry for dumping the article.
I have to admit that I took the comments by several posters over at Tanknet for face value which apparently wasn't true.

Nevertheless it would have been enough to point me to the article without the rather harsh tone.
It's a mistake and not the end of the world and it doesn't change my statement that modern KE penetrators which are designed with heavy ERA in mind get degraded by it but aren't as much affected as older ones.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
@peschernik
Night vision equipment was indeed widespread on Sovjet/WarPac combat vehicles.
The same cannot be said about thermal imagers. A thermal imager is a huge step above the active/passive IR technology used before.
Only these days is Russia able, due to license produced french thermals, to equip it's vehicles (and it's export vehicles) with high quality thermals in serious numbers.
 

peschernik

New Member
@peschernik
Night vision equipment was indeed widespread on Sovjet/WarPac combat vehicles.
The same cannot be said about thermal imagers. A thermal imager is a huge step above the active/passive IR technology used before.
Only these days is Russia able, due to license produced french thermals, to equip it's vehicles (and it's export vehicles) with high quality thermals in serious numbers.
You inattentively read my post. In the end of cold war the USSR produced thermals for tanks. It is Agava thermal for Т-80. (Agava it is Russian tank's thermals.)

ТО1-PО2Т "Agava-2T" / "Agava-2TI" - "object 219Е", Т-80U(M), Т-80UK.
Range of detection of the purposes (tank) - 6400 m
Range of classification of the purposes (tank) - 4600 m
Range of identification of the purposes (tank) - 2500 m

After cold war Russian’s tanks also use "Noktyurn". It is thermal of 3 generations with range of identification of the purposes - 2800 m. This thermal for T-80 and T-72. ("Noktyurn" it is Russian tank's thermals.)

But what about T-90? Yes, T-90 use not Russian’s thermals.

After cold war Russian’s tanks also use French thermals. It is Catrine-FC. (T-90 use it.)
Range of detection of the purposes (tank) – 11400 m
Range of classification of the purposes (tank) - 4600 m
Range of identification of the purposes (tank) - 2800 m
 

Haavarla

Active Member
As far as T-80 goes in Georgia.. reports show most of the Main battle tanks was upgraded T-72's. same goes with other armour assets.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I am talking about widespread equipment.
NATO fielded alot more thermal imagers than WarPac forces.

There is a reason for Russia using french TIs in new build tanks these days. They have developed TIs but they were not able to produce them in the quantities needed.
I am not arguing about the Sovjet Union not being able to develop or field TIs but compared to NATO the numbers remaind smaller due to mass production problems.
 

Mindstorm

Banned Member
I stand corrected and am sorry for dumping the article.
I have to admit that I took the comments by several posters over at Tanknet for face value which apparently wasn't true.

Nevertheless it would have been enough to point me to the article without the rather harsh tone.
It's a mistake and not the end of the world and it doesn't change my statement that modern KE penetrators which are designed with heavy ERA in mind get degraded by it but aren't as much affected as older ones.

I am sorry for the unwanted "harsh" tone ,it was not intended to be a personal attack . It is only that ,sometime, i remain truly surprised discovering that ,still today, some clearly false, totally groundless allegations or platitudes, repeated so many times in the net begin to be even accepted as true even in forums attended by professional insiders .

Note : About posting the link to Jane's , i have attempted to do it 3 times ,before discover that ,until i would post 10 messages ,i was prohibited to do that . Luckily
DavidDCM has provided the link for me after just some minutes from mine first message .

Best regards
 

Mindstorm

Banned Member
Numbers don't mean much if you run into killzones because of inflexible planning, or when your means of command & control or logistics can't support such a huge mass of maneuvering forces.

Not to say that probably the first supermarket over the border would attract some interest by the WarPac soldiers...

NATO would fight a defensive war and in such a war a numerical superiority might very well shrink away very fast.
If the WarPac doesn't manage to perform the needed operational breakthroughs in time they are in for a nightmare.

As I said, it's not possible to say who would have won.

Yes Waylander in part i agree with you ; i am like you ,for so say, a "Lutz Unterseher - believer " ,in particular on its models and studies on the heavy advantages enjoyed by the side adopting a low time -of transition deep stategic defense posture ,above all in a theatre like West Europe , but we must not forget that pratically any simulation of those years ,from the Danish commited of Jacob de Ruiter to the German one of S. Khol , which modeled an hypotetical massive multifront attack in Europe by part of URSS's forces (the famous "two corridors" offensive on five main fronts ), confirmed that ,except in very rare combinations of cirmunstances accounting for a very low percentage, the conventional superiority of WP was so overwhelming that the only credible response would have been for NATO the use of tactical NW (see at example "Limiting Offensive Conventional Forces- Soviet Proposals and western options" by Jack Snyder or "Is NATO Decisively Outnumbered? by Barry R. Posen or "Numbers, Strategy, and the European Balance "by John J. Mearsheimer etc...etc..) .

Moreover the same basis of CFE was modulated around the necessity to counterweight the crushing conventional superiority of WP forces ( "Salvaging the Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty Regime: Options for Washington" by Sherman Garnett - Jeff McCausland -Anne Witkowsky ).


Is just in this context that is necessary to inserts the results obtained by Held and Ness on the incredible resilience experimentally demonstrated by samples of original Soviet T-72s A/B against almost all anti-tanks weapons present in NATO arsenals at the time ,in particular the potentially truly devastating effect of Soviet disinformation on the analytical and projection model basis of NATO strategical posture of the time
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
That's interesting. Object 195 was recently taken off the MoD plans, with a new T-90M supposedly close to completion. UVZ did say they planned to finish 195 on their own. This could be it.
 

Mindstorm

Banned Member
I agree with Feanor on the hypothesis of an indipendent development program by part of UVZ (very likely in the form of a technology-demonstrator-prototype).
One can only argue on the profound reasons ,in terms of opportunity and profitability both technical and economical , behind a similar choice.

My bets are for the completion of a solid starting platform to offer, as model basis, for a joint project co-developed and co-funded by a foreign partner (here the Indian FMBT -Future Main Battle Tank- project and the strong engineering "pool" of DRDO come to mind ).
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Whether the MoD supports a T-90M or an Object-195 spin-off, I just hope they support something, because limited T-90A purchases, and T-72BA upgrades aren't going to cut it.
 

NICO

New Member
I have been trying to compare T90 images to images of the supposedly T95 pictures, it sure looks different to me. Lot longer chassis and more "flat" than typical Russian designs.The front/chassis seems to have no relationship with T90 or for that matter T72/T80.

I hope we hear more info or get better pictures of the turrent.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I wouldn't be surprised if we never see that tank again. It could be any number of prototype tanks, and it could also be a hoax altogether. T-90M pictures surfaced a little while ago, similarly grainy images, with no official confirmation. Nothing has been heard since.

I'm not keeping my fingers crossed until we have an official display.
 

Mindstorm

Banned Member
As easily expected the first authorative refutations of the allegations, maked by Gen. Alexander Postnikov , on the standards of Russians weaponry and western analogues (among which some statements very......"stranges"....... on T-90 and Leopard 2 , including the assertion that the Leo 2 is much more reliable and for the cost of one of the former should be possible buy four of the latter ! ) become to circulate .

That is a link to a video ,from Ria Novosti, in which is not only is affirmed that, from resuts of live tests in Saudi Arabia the T-90 demonstrated to be operatively much more reliable and resilents in difficult environments and that, from dedicated simulations pitting domestic T-90s against Leopard 2A6 in typical battlefield conditions ,the T-90 enjoy a crushing exchange ratio over the Leo 2A6 , but also that the price tag of the former is about 1/4 of that of the latter ( a data collimating perfectly with the contracts signed worldwide ,until today, for the two MBT and with figures usually associated at the prices of the two systems )


en.rian.ru/video/20110322/163146273.html
 
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