The Indonesian Army

[STURM]

It's rather the lax civilian protection procedure that irritates me. Unleashing such a firestorm in the middle of a town with dozens of civilians, journalists and soldiers around and intermingling seems like a totally bad idea to me.

Reminds you of the footage taken at Beslan doesn't it, with all the media, parents of the hostage children and civilian 'helpers' standing around.

Ananda, over the years have any MBT trials been conducted locally?
Out of curiosity, did the Dutch hand-over any Sherman tanks when they left Indonesia?

 

[Ananda]

Ananda, over the years have any MBT trials been conducted locally?
Out of curiosity, did the Dutch hand-over any Sherman tanks when they left Indonesia?

So far I know, no MBT trials been done locally ( i,e, no MBT been send to Indonesia for try out). For M-4, well there's conflicting report on this. There's enough report that confirm NICA (Netherland Indies Collonial Army) did deployed M-4 Sherman and M-3 (in here M3A3 Stuart and not M-3 Lee) during Indonesia's Revolution Insurgencies (1945-1949).

However so far I can only found solid references that they left M-3 to new Indonesian Republic Army, but I can't found solid evidences they left M-4.
Well basically if this MBT's deal comes to fruition, it's the first in the Indonesian Army history.

 

[Ananda]

Correction need to be made from my previous comment:

Altough talk about MBT already come out since the time of Soeharto, however thsi time show more intense, since this time Indonesia is not the first Nation on SEA intruduces MBT. On the 80s South Korea already offerd their License M-60, whille in the 90's talked with the Germans for Leopard 1 was also comming (through Habibie connections). Both in the end result with more AMX 13 (instead M-60), and Scorpions light tanks (instead of Leo 1).

After searching old articles and sources, it's turn out when Soeharto conducts state visits to ROK in the 80's, the ROK offered 'loccally upgraded M-48A5' and not M-60. After turning down the offer, Soeharto agree for the Army to get additional AMX-13 with 105 mm gun from ex-Netherland inventories.

Those AMX-13 105 mm gun that will be upgraded, if the plan for further use of AMX-13 (upgraded) come to fruition. Those AMX-13 already used Detroit Diesel, and not original gasoline engines since the late 80's-early 90's upgrade program.

 

[DavidDCM]

I wonder what they will do to the AMX-13 to upgrade it. Maybe they mean a life extension programme rather than a true modernization. With the Singaporean SM1 package already implemented as well as the 105 mm gun I am not aware of any further upgrades available for this old machine. A new custom upgrade programme would appear pretty expensive to me.

 

[Ananda]

I wonder what they will do to the AMX-13 to upgrade it. Maybe they mean a life extension programme rather than a true modernization. With the Singaporean SM1 package already implemented as well as the 105 mm gun I am not aware of any further upgrades available for this old machine. A new custom upgrade programme would appear pretty expensive to me.

I personally can only think improvement with sensors and network centric comm environment. However I can't vouch if this still cost effective. Perhaps TNI-AD still think using AMX-13 with updated sensors and comm system will still provide those AMX-13 a 'niche' use on modern battlefield.

 

[DavidDCM]

According to Army Recognition, Indonesia will put the CSE-90 turret from Belgium on the 22 vehicles they purchased from South Korea last year (see page 4 of this thread).

Curious deal, the CSE-90 is the same turret that Malaysia uses on it's SIBMAS since almost 30 years. TNI is probably getting more modern fire control, I guess.

armyrecognition:

[...]By 2013, CMI Defence will deliver 22 new CSE90 systems to Indonesia [...] Regarding the contract with Indonesia, the CSE90 weapon system will be installed on Doosan’s 6x6 Tarantula (also named Black Fox) built by South Korean company Daewoo International.

 

[Ananda]

Got some picture on the prototype of AMX 13 Upgrade being conducted from official TNI-AD Cavalry site .: PUSSENKAV:.

As predicted, the modifications mostly in the turret while the gun still using 105 mm. Thus if this prototype being agreed, then it will be significant run down of AMX 13 inventory from current 200-300 to just 65 but upgraded AMX 13 105mm.

 

[Ananda]

According to Army Recognition, Indonesia will put the CSE-90 turret from Belgium on the 22 vehicles they purchased from South Korea last year (see page 4 of this thread).

Curious deal, the CSE-90 is the same turret that Malaysia uses on it's SIBMAS since almost 30 years. TNI is probably getting more modern fire control, I guess.

armyrecognition:

Well according to CMI, the new fire control is the upgrade being done on present CSE 90. It's not surprising TNI will use CSE 90 since it's being used by Army Scorpion and Marines PT-76 and AMX-10 (in which despite the arrival of Russian BMP 3 will still being used). Logistically it's a resonable move, whille for light weight gun vehicles like Tarantulla, AMC-10, PT-76, and Scorpion, the gun turret like CSE 90 still the best they can get in the market today (unless they goes with Russian 100 mm 2A70 in BMP 3).

The performances of the CMI Defence Weapons systems have been further enhanced by incorporating sub-systems of the latest generation including electro-mechanical drives and modern day/night sight with laser range finder and ballistic computer. Its single stage muzzle brake allows the firing of APFSDS-T ammunition. Secondary armament includes coaxial and pintle-mounted 7.62 mm machine gun and grenade launchers

.

 

[DavidDCM]

Thanks Ananda for those two pics. So they indeed want to really upgrade the AMX-13.

Indonesia going for a turret that it's neighbour is going to phase out seems strange nonetheless. otoh, maybe they gonna phase out the Saladin finally. 22 seems quite a small number of vehicles.

 

[Ananda]

Thanks Ananda for those two pics. So they indeed want to really upgrade the AMX-13.

Indonesia going for a turret that it's neighbour is going to phase out seems strange nonetheless. otoh, maybe they gonna phase out the Saladin finally. 22 seems quite a small number of vehicles.

Well I think it's more to the fact that TNI does not have enough money to replace all AMX 13 altogether right away. The inventory at it's peak reach close to 300, now they planning to upgrade only 65 (thus presummed it will retain maybe until 2020 those 65). The rest will be phased out...but replacing them will also takes time. Afterall they also only planning until 2014 to have 65 MBT as replacement.

It's estimated that TNI received between 250 - 300 AMX 13 from French and Netherland from 60's to 80's. From that Inventory already around 80 - 100 being replaced by Scorpion 90mm light tank. Thus still lingger in the inventory around 180-190 tanks. If 65 will be upgraded, whille another 65 will be replaced by MBT, then it's left around 50-60 un-upgraded AMX 13. If the planned IFV (called medium tank in here) also will be armed by Cockerill turret (seems going to be standard turret in TNI), then all AMX except the upgraded ones will be replaced by 2014.

For saladin, the present replacement (new Blackfox based gun vehicle) will only be 22, but the previous communicate from the Army put eventual number 60 until 2014. That put in the neighbourhood of Saladin inventory at it's peak.

As you can see, TNI-AD seems will not add their inventory especially for tracked vehicles. They're going for replacement mode in one-on one basis.

 

[DavidDCM]

Yes, follow-up orders is a logical step, however I would've thought that their initial order at least comprises enough vehicles for a complete Yonkav battalion. 22 seems a bit low for that, or how will they be organised?

 

[Ananda]

Yes, follow-up orders is a logical step, however I would've thought that their initial order at least comprises enough vehicles for a complete Yonkav battalion. 22 seems a bit low for that, or how will they be organised?

I don't have info on how they're going to organise them. However based on TNI Practise I think it will be step by step. I believe they will be inserted to present batallion that operated Salladin but not all Salladin will be replace right away (not untill all plan 60 came to fruition).

 

[Ananda]

Pindad plan to manufactured IFV.

From Business Indonesia online with Google Translate:

BANDUNG: PT Pindad will develop lighter tanks fighting vehicles began 2014, to meet the defense needs of the Army.

CEO Pindad Avianto Soedarsono sister suggested the plan was an attempt to answer the needs of Army armored and tank which is currently 90% filled by foreign products.

He pointed out that light tanks will refer to the current model of foreign products, such as K-21 products made in South Korea's Doosan DST and Turkey.

On the same occasion, he says immediately work on Panzer Anoa Pindad Tarantula which is absorbed from Doosan DST technology. Panzer will be armed Belgian-made 90 mm cannon.

He pointed out the cooperation contract procurement combat vehicles has been carried out in 2009 as many as 22 units. A total of 11 units built-up will soon arrive from Doosan DST, while the remaining 11 units done by Pindad

It's more clear now, that the medium tank being talked about is actually IFV, with Doosan K-21 as leading contender and Turkish IFV as potential rival. It's 25 tonnes armoured vehicles that Pindad think will be suitable for Indonesian Geographic conditions. It will be interesting though whether this in Pindad versions will be up-gunned to 90 mm gun.

 

[Ananda]

Deleted.

 

[Ananda]

Some Pictures

Got some pictures from Army Combat Training Center (Puslatpur) site (on Pindad's mortar's trial, and M 101) and defense studies blogspot on Pindad's light (64mm) Anti Armoured.

The Mortar's being trial is 60 mm and 81 mm, as latest effort to improved the rate of fire and ranges for Pindad's mortar. The M 101 will be replaced by Korean KH-178.

 

[Chino]

Got some picture on the prototype of AMX 13 Upgrade being conducted from official TNI-AD Cavalry site .: PUSSENKAV:.

As predicted, the modifications mostly in the turret while the gun still using 105 mm. Thus if this prototype being agreed, then it will be significant run down of AMX 13 inventory from current 200-300 to just 65 but upgraded AMX 13 105mm.

Nice. As a Singaporean, we have a lot of sentimental affection for the AMX-13.

SAF claim that the 300 AMX-13 we have are phased out to be replaced by 100 Leopards, and even melted a few AMX-13 down in a ceremony. But I suspect that until all the thousands of reservist trained on the AMX-13 are old and senile, the AMX-13 in SAF will soldier on.

...

Do you have any idea about the role for MBT in TNI? And what numbers is TNI looking at.

Indonesia is a huge geography with so many islands, it looks like a big headache where to put your MBTs. And shipping them around to different places presents logistical nightmare as you don't just have to transport the tanks, but the whole support system.

ANd BTW, on the whole, is TNI in a more offensive or defensive posture?

Apologies in advance if the questions are inappropriate.

 

[DavidDCM]

Tanks are most probably going to be stationed on Java, under command of the Kostrad strategic reserve unit.

 

[Ananda]

Tanks are most probably going to be stationed on Java, under command of the Kostrad strategic reserve unit.

Logically any new tanks (or MBT if the plan goes ahead) should be stationed in Java, since the infrastructures to support them will be available best in that Island. However some noise in here alreeady specullating that new MBT will be stationed in Kalimantan/Borneo in the new Cavalry Batalions being build there. Personally I have my doubt that the newest Tanks will be stationed outside Java.

The Air transport elements by TNI-AU with C-130 as the biggest, means they can only afford to take max 15-18 tons Armoured. Thus only catagories like AMX-13 or Pindad's new 'canon' Armoured Cars can only be put by air. Whille most of TNI-AL trasnports except the 4 Makasar LPD's is also geared for Light Tanks and APC's for their transported inventories.

Thus by that logic, if new MBT being procured they will be stationed on Java or Sumatra at most, unless significant supporting infrastructures being build outside Java and Sumatra.

@Chino, the doctrines for TNI still is deffensive postures. TNI doctrines still dictate (at least semi-publicly) that due to their conditions, they will use the advantages of geographics of Indonesia for deffensive strategies in which basically try to wear down potential Invading forces through deffensive/guerilla tactics of hit and run.

What's quite sensitive though this doctrines dictates that they will hold ground in Java and Sumatra whille play insurgencies doctrines outside Java and Sumatra if facing supperior invading forces (Java and Sumatra in here means also some smaller island near to Java and Sumatra like Madura, Bali) This was known but seldom talked since it can create ressenment feeling from people outside Java and Sumatra.

I heard about this doctrines around late 80's when the mood that time was talking about northern invations scenarios. However this doctrines I heard still beingheld somewhat by National Defense think-tank in Lemhanas on basis that the infrastructures for long-term defense is available mostly in Java and Sumatra. Thus the thinking is that coordinating good defense only possible under current TNI situations for Java and Sumatra, whille outside Java and Sumatra the Armed Forces and local militia will conducting Insurgencies strategies.

Off Course, the basic Philosophy of TNI is still to defend every inch of Indonesian sovereign teritory

For addtional info:
From Tempo Interactive, quoting TNI-AL Marines sources and Mindef, the Marines set to have a full batalion (54) of BMP-3F from current already delivered 17. This will make the Marines operating 3 Light Tanks batalions with one operating BMP-3, the other PT-76 (upgraded), and the last one operating AMX-10P.
Seems they will operated and supported by elements of Armourd Personal Carriers of BTR-50, LAV-7, and BTR-80 in composites ways.

 

[DavidDCM]

Logically any new tanks (or MBT if the plan goes ahead) should be stationed in Java, since the infrastructures to support them will be available best in that Island. However some noise in here alreeady specullating that new MBT will be stationed in Kalimantan/Borneo in the new Cavalry Batalions being build there. Personally I have my doubt that the newest Tanks will be stationed outside Java.

I also heavily doubt that. Kalimantan units only get older equipment, that's a political message, Jakarta don't wants to appear as if it still intends to invade Sarawak and Sabah. Putting main battle tanks into Kalimantan would give the bilateral relations of Indonesia and Malaysia a serious chink.

 

[Chino]

@Ananda

Thanks for the eye-opening points.

To fully defend every inch of Indonesia is a nightmare. You will need a few million armed men, hundreds of ships and aircrafts.

It does make sense to consolidate on Java and Sumatra, and then build-up to counter the threat that has occurred in further places. So MBT would be mostly for the active defense of Java and Sumatra. But since these two areas are huge, you must need a lot.

But there is currently no real threat scenarios, is there?

With the vast geography of thousands of islands, and with what you already told us about the people's militia scenario, it would appear there is more need for rapid airforce and naval expansion.

...

IIRC, SAF and TNI use roughly the same version of AMX-10P. Allegedly, SAF does not think highly of the AMX-10P. How about TNI?