The Indonesian Army

[Sandhi Yudha]

I don't know about Ken Conboy's claim since supposedly TNI still have ample inventory left of AK-47. However by the time Soeharto's firmly in power (mid 70's), TNI have switch to M-16 and 5.6 mm bullets. That's actually killed the AK-47 in TNI-AD. However the Marines I believe up until early 90's still operating some AK-47.

Off all TNI brach, the Marines is perheps the longgest operating Russian and East Block weapons. Afterall up untill the 90's they still operating Katushya (BM-21 before being change to present RM-70) and Strela (SA-7). Btw, Strela is the manpads before QW-3, and operated so far that I know only by the Marines.

Kormar, dont know when this pictures is taken.
It looks like a Sa Vz.58V.

 

[STURM]

Yes, I think I already put somewhere in this thread and forum that Pindad already gain license agreement with Oto Melara for 105 mm gun.

Yes you did, sorry, forgot about it. The Model 56 is light and compact but it hasn't got much range. I'm just surprised they didn't go for the Giat Light Gun which is already operated by the Korps Marinir.

 

[Ananda]

Yes you did, sorry, forgot about it. The Model 56 is light and compact but it hasn't got much range. I'm just surprised they didn't go for the Giat Light Gun which is already operated by the Korps Marinir.

Well it could be for several reaons ;

1. The license cost from Oto Melara perhaps is more fit with Pindad budget compared to GIAT.
2. Once I read from Army source that they think Pindad guns (aka Oto Melara Pack Gun) is more suitable with TNI AD ability to transport them. It's light enough that any Landrover (which's still TNI AD standard 4x4) can tow them properly.
3. 10-12 km firing range that the gun offered still comfortable enough for tropical junggle warfare that TNI AD will face.

 

[STURM]

One advantage of the Model 56 is it can be broken down to 11 parts if needed, for transport. The only problem apart from its range - it uses the M1 shell - is that it's not very robust. Janes's reported that China many years ago bought 4 or 5 from Oto Melara and later came up with an almost exact Norinco made copy.

 

[Ananda]

One advantage of the Model 56 is it can be broken down to 11 parts if needed, for transport. The only problem apart from its range - it uses the M1 shell - is that it's not very robust. Janes's reported that China many years ago bought 4 or 5 from Oto Melara and later came up with an almost exact Norinco made copy.

Well the model 56 in Italy also being used by Alps regiment, constitute with the model 56 light and easy transportable nature. Being a compact 105 mm howitzer I do believe some compromise must be taken compared to other 105 mm gun. Seems the compact. tranportable and light maintanance nature that attract the Army (then) Pindad to based their first 105 mm gun on Oto model 56.

 

[STURM]

Well the model 56 in Italy also being used by Alps regiment, constitute with the model 56 light and easy transportable nature. Being a compact 105 mm howitzer I do believe some compromise must be taken compared to other 105 mm gun. Seems the compact. tranportable and light maintanance nature that attract the Army (then) Pindad to based their first 105 mm gun on Oto model 56.

I'm not sure if the Alpini still uses the Model 56. Countries that operated the Model 56 in the past were Australia, Britain, Canada, etc. The Model 56 is the most numerous artillery piece in the Malaysian army, organised into Close Support Regiments, with about 140 bought from 1963 - 1982. They were first used by the Malaysian army in Borneo during the Confrontation.

What missiles has the TNI-AD equipped it's POPRAD mount with?

 

[Ananda]

I'm not sure if the Alpini still uses the Model 56. Countries that operated the Model 56 in the past were Australia, Britain, Canada, etc. The Model 56 is the most numerous artillery piece in the Malaysian army, organised into Close Support Regiments, with about 140 bought from 1963 - 1982. They were first used by the Malaysian army in Borneo during the Confrontation.

What missiles has the TNI-AD equipped it's POPRAD mount with?

About a year ago, I read a news bulletin on Oto's site that show pictures of Mod 56 with Italian Alpine Regs. Seems Oto's want to show even it's old model, it's still reliable and tranportable enough for hard terain operation.

I'll try to look on latest TNI-AD missiles, so far TNI-AD rather reluctant to open their latest missiles inventory compared to TNI-AU or AL.

 

[DavidDCM]

Poprad as part of the Cobra Air Defence system is equipped with the Grom missile from Poland.

 

[Ananda]

NBell 412-EP for the Army

From Detik.com with Google translate:

Jakarta - PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PT DI) back adds ammunition to the defense of Indonesia through the army. They gave 1 unit NBELL 412 EP helicopters.

Delivery of the helicopter was held on Wednesday (2/1/11) at the Center for Army Aviation Squadron 21 Army, Pondok Cabe, Tangerang South. "This incident is proof of the readiness of PT DI in preparing the domestic defense industrial revitalization," said President Director Budi Santoso in his speech.

Meanwhile, Deputy Chief of Staff of the Army (Wakasad) Lieutenant General Suryo Prabowo who received this helicopter express his gratitude to PT DI. He said the cooperation with PT DI is gradually going to continue.

"This is testament to the Army's commitment to empower domestic production in line with the presidential mandate," he said.

According to the Army Aviation Center Commander Brig N Revelation Rianto, helicopters with 15 tons carrying capacity or can also carry 15 people including the pilot will be placed in Squadron 31, Semarang. "The plan for transport aircraft. But it will also be equipped with 30 mm gun on the left and right of the heli. This is for security as it was landing," he said.

Meanwhile, according to Army Logistics Chief Maj. Gen Wibowo, heli price was USD 11 million. He explained that, compared to other NBELL type helicopters, This NBELL 412-EP has a larger capacity engine and all equipment is digital. Another advantage of this heli be able to do auto-pilot hovering, Whille previous NBELL in TNI-AD inventory such as type 412 or 412 HP SP has not been able to do so.

This move, confirm TNI-AD decisions to standardise their Utility Helicopter fleet with Bell 412. NBell means that further deal already reached by Bell Helicopters to provide further batch of license to DI/IAe, since the previous license on manufacturing Bell 412 SP already completed.

Previous NBell 412 SP only capable to take 12 persons and 11 tons capacity. Seems the improvement on NBell 412 EP compared to SP type quite considerable.

 

[Chino]

2. Once I read from Army source that they think Pindad guns (aka Oto Melara Pack Gun) is more suitable with TNI AD ability to transport them. It's light enough that any Landrover (which's still TNI AD standard 4x4) can tow them properly.

In my limited experience with Land Rovers, I somehow feel uncomfortable with the idea that they can tow a 1.2 ton Oto Melara 105mm artillery piece.

Furthermore, how many LRs do you need to tow/support each gun? You would have at least a crew of 4 to 5, and what about the ammo?

In rough country, the LR is barely able to move itself. I'm not saying it is weak, it is just not that powerful especially if it is more than 5 yrs old.

In SAF, the LR is rarely used to tow anything and its two main roles I've seen are as Signal Comms Relay vehicle and utility transport vehicle mostly for commanders.

The lightest artillery piece in SAF artillery units during my service days was what looked like a towed 120mm mortar (under 300kg). Still we used a Unimog (4x4 small truck) to tow it. At least the Unimog would be able to hold not only the crew but also some ammo.

(Apologies for referring to SAF all the time but it is my only point of reference that I'm familiar with.)

 

[DavidDCM]

I don't know about the Mod 56 howitzer, but the M101 howitzer in Indonesian army is also towed by Unimogs. I have, however, already seen pics of the M48 mountain gun being towed by M715 Kaiser Jeeps in TNI-AD.

 

[Ananda]

In my limited experience with Land Rovers, I somehow feel uncomfortable with the idea that they can tow a 1.2 ton Oto Melara 105mm artillery piece.

Furthermore, how many LRs do you need to tow/support each gun? You would have at least a crew of 4 to 5, and what about the ammo?

In rough country, the LR is barely able to move itself. I'm not saying it is weak, it is just not that powerful especially if it is more than 5 yrs old.

In SAF, the LR is rarely used to tow anything and its two main roles I've seen are as Signal Comms Relay vehicle and utility transport vehicle mostly for commanders.

The lightest artillery piece in SAF artillery units during my service days was what looked like a towed 120mm mortar (under 300kg). Still we used a Unimog (4x4 small truck) to tow it. At least the Unimog would be able to hold not only the crew but also some ammo.

(Apologies for referring to SAF all the time but it is my only point of reference that I'm familiar with.)

No problem with reference to SAF. In the last Indodefence, the 105 MM Oto Melara/Pindad gun being displayed on towing possitions with Pindad 4 x 4 prototype. This Pindad prototype now facing tender with other 4 x 4 from Pacific Technology (local company). Talking with the people in Indodefence, stated that Pindad 4x4 used Landy Defender chasis and Pac Technology used American made chasis (perhaps GMC).

In the photo of Pindad 4x4, you can see a set of wheels in the back of the Vehicle that actually belong to 105 mm Oto's towed Pack Gun. Pindad vehicle in the left.

Just info, as far as I know, the Field Artilery batalions also used Unimog as the standard towing vehicle
Perhaps the info on Oto's gun can be towed by a Landy and showed in the Indodefence on towed with a Landy derivatives Pindad's product just to show that it's light enough. But in actual I think the artilery Bat's still going to used Unimog or other simmilar class vehicles.

 

[STURM]

I don't know about the Mod 56 howitzer, but the M101 howitzer in Indonesian army is also towed by Unimogs. I have, however, already seen pics of the M48 mountain gun being towed by M715 Kaiser Jeeps in TNI-AD.

The main primemover now for the Model 56 in the Malaysian army is the Pinzgauer. The Model 56's attached to 10th Para Brigade can also be air dropped. The main problem with towing the Model 56 over rough terrain is that it's reportedly not very robust.

The lightest artillery piece in SAF artillery units during my service days was what looked like a towed 120mm mortar (under 300kg). Still we used a Unimog (4x4 small truck) to tow it. At least the Unimog would be able to hold not only the crew but also some ammo.

(Apologies for referring to SAF all the time but it is my only point of reference that I'm familiar with.)

Are you refering to the Soltam's? I thought they were mounted on M-113's?

 

[DavidDCM]

I think he is referring to the man-handled 120 mm mortars used as organic fire-support on infantry bataillon level as shown below. Those are towed by unarmoured vehicles. Maybe Chino can even tell which type of mortar it is and manufactured by whom. Mortars all look the same to me.

In regards to towing vehicles or prime movers, different countries use a multitude of different vehicles as gun tractors. The interesting point however is that Pindad directly stated that the gun tractor for their ME 105 howitzer (Mod 56 licence version) is the Land Rover. Yet I guess that may just have been a marketing move to show the light weight of the howitzer, not a recommendation of what they regard the best vehicle for the job.

 

[STURM]

I think he is referring to the man-handled 120 mm mortars used as organic fire-support on infantry bataillon level as shown below.

Did Singapore operate any 120mm mortars other than the Soltam's?

 

[DavidDCM]

With Soltam you mean that huge 160 mm monster they used in the 1980's? Yes, they use until today 120 and 81 mm mortars. The picture I have attached in my post above is a Singaporean 120 mm mortar. Maybe it's made by Soltam, I don't know.

 

[STURM]

With Soltam you mean that huge 160 mm monster they used in the 1980's? Yes, they use until today 120 and 81 mm mortars. The picture I have attached in my post above is a Singaporean 120 mm mortar. Maybe it's made by Soltam, I don't know.

You could be right. I was under the impression that Singapore had 120mm Soltams, no idea about the 160mm's.

 

[DavidDCM]

Singapore has had both 120 and 160 mm mortars. The 160 was retired long ago, the 120 remains in service to this day. Whether it is made by Soltam, Chino will surely be able to tell next time he's around.

 

[Ananda]

Singapore has had both 120 and 160 mm mortars. The 160 was retired long ago, the 120 remains in service to this day. Whether it is made by Soltam, Chino will surely be able to tell next time he's around.

Just wandering the effectiveness off 160mm mortar on present conditions, considering more and more light weight 155 mm guns already in the market.

 

[DavidDCM]

Most armies have retired them, obviously coming to the conclusion that they do not offer real advantages to either howitzers or smaller (120 mm) mortars in operational terms. Possibly too bulky, slow, and immobile as battalion level fire support, yet too short-ranged as brigade or divisional fire support. Their max range of less than 10 kilometers puts them far behind 155 mm howitzers. However it has to be said that there are no modern 160 mm mortars or grenades, in theory it would surely be possible to develop modern grenades with higher range and greater lethality, as well as reducing work load and crew size. But as there is no more demand for it, no defence company ever did so. Thus, current 120 mm mortars are more capable than those old 160 mm beasts.