Indonesian Aero News

Ananda

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From Indo-Defence

From Kompas Newspaper on First Day Indo-Defence activities (using Google Translate):

23 Co-operation signed

Jakarta, Kompas - Grand Opening of the exhibition's largest defense sector in Indonesia, Indo Defence, Aerospace Indo, and Indo Marine, 2010, marked by the signing of 23 agreements of cooperation on defense industry revitalization.

"This is cooperation for military and police," said Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro, Wednesday (10/11) at the opening exhibition at the Kemayoran, Jakarta. Pameran ini dibuka Presiden Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono. The exhibition was opened by President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono.

Some of cooperation, between the Ministry of Defence and foreign parties, among them a contract worth 142 million U.S. dollars for the purchase of EMB 346 Super Tucano planes with Embraer, Brazil.. The aircraft with specifications using propeller is considered suitable for monitoring the border areas to prevent theft of timber or fish. The aircraft that use propellers are designed for light attack and COIN.
At the exhibition also signed a contract with Rosoboronexport, for the purchase of weapons for the Sukhoi aircraft worth 54 million U.S. dollars.

Most of the agreements that involve domestic defense industry, both with the Ministry of Defence as well as by direct users and industry.

PT Pindad, for example, in collaboration with CV Sari Bahari for filling TNT and bomb P-100L.
In addition, there is also cooperation with the TNI Air Force for the procurement of bomb BLP BT 250 and 250.

PT Dirgantara Indonesia to establish cooperation with foreign industries, such as Eurocopter, France for the development of the EC 725 helicopter, Superpuma, and helicopter rescue.
PT Dirgantara Indonesia has also worked with the Korean Aerospace Industries Ltd. for the marketing and industrial CN 235 and T-50.

While PT PAL arm of China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation to work together developing a variety of ships.
While the overall Agreements are for All Armed Forces and Police, but for the Air Force Two Things that be noted:
1. Super Tucano still the choices, and COIN still being purchased (well that's for me to bite my own tounge :p:)
2. Second interesting thing, DI and KAI agree on Join Marketing on CN 235 and T-50. In my book this strong indications, that T-50 will win the Hawk-53 replacement as LIFT.

Attach various local bombs from ALUTSISTA : ALAT UTAMA SISTEM SENJATA

From French Agence-Presse:

Brazil's Embraer to sell Super Tucanos to Indonesia
Brazilian aviation giant Embraer announced Wednesday that it has won an international competition to supply eight Super Tucano light attack turboprops to the Indonesian Air Force.

Embraer did not say how much the deal was worth; it also includes ground support stations and an integrated logistics package. Deliveries to Indonesia start in 2012.

"We are very pleased to have the Indonesian Air Force as the newest customer of Embraer Defense Systems," said Orlando Jose Ferreira Neto, Embraer executive vice president.

"The Super Tucano is a proven light attack and advanced trainer turboprop, flying currently in five air forces, and we are certain it will perfectly suit Indonesia's needs."

The Super Tucano lists at around 10 million dollars, according to local media.

Embraer, the world's third-largest aircraft maker, in the third quarter of 2010 had earnings of 128 million dollars.
Confirmation on SuperTucano deals from Embraer. The deal only for 8 aircraft, eventhough the amount of deal according Kompas is USD 142 mio. Means the logistics and supporting packages is quite significant. No confirmation whether this deal is 8 fixed and 8 optional, since the TNI-AU proposed for 16 Super Tucano's.
 
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OPSSG

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Well, the Fighter Packages and Weapons Packages usually discussed on seperate deal. Like the Flankers..many on Indonesian forum already claim we got Vympel R-27 AE and Vympel R-27 P in which equivalent to Amraam and Shrike. Still no confirmation so far. TNI and Mindef ussually more guarded on confirmation of what missiles TNI already had or trying to get to the Inventory compared to other hard ware info...

Anyway, they way I see it, this F-16 deal will be a stop gap untill we can get KF-X. Kompas news paper claim that the offered F-16 Block 32 and existing F-16 Block 15+ on TNI AU on the deal will be all upgrade to Block 50 standard. Even claim that the offer for F-16 Block 32 actually comes free, however the costs on MLU to Block 50 (or 52) will be significant enough (close to half of brand new Block 52).

This deal basically to improved existing F-16 sq and replacement of F-5. How's it's going to be armed, well that's another deal.
If this deal goes through, I believe many of the more aggressive Malaysians from UMNO Youth would be worried. With the numbers acquired and upgraded at one go - 34 (plus future LIFT, the TNI-AU will be much more capable in a very short time), numbers would have a quality all of its own.

In other news, the Russians have signed a US$54 million contract on the delivery of munitions for Sukhoi-family fighters to Indonesia. In the earlier Jakarta Post report, the value was not disclosed.
 
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Ananda

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From Flight International:

Indonesia should make a decision on a mid-life upgrade for its Lockheed Martin F-16A/Bs in 2011 or 2012, but could also buy an additional batch of six Block 50/52 fighters.

If the upgrade takes place it will extend the service life of the Indonesian air force's current F-16s from 4,000 to 8,000 flight hours, and make them as capable as new-build models, says an industry source. An upgrade to all 10 aircraft is likely to cost around $150 million.

Modernisation work would take one year per aircraft, with the work to be conducted in Indonesia using kits provided by Lockheed, according to details revealed at the tri-service Indo Defence Expo & Forum in Jakarta. The air force also wants to acquire Falcon Star and Falcon Up upgrades for its current fighters.
In addition, Lockheed is pushing for Indonesia to purchase six more F-16s in the Block 50/52 configuration to give it a full squadron of 16 operational aircraft.

Another option, albeit less likely, would be for the nation to replace its current F-16s with ex-US
Air National Guard Block 50/52 airframes. However, these would have a remaining service life of only 1,500h each and be less compatible with the US Air Force's support system for the type
I Think some misqoute that from Flight International, the F-16 used airframe that's being offered is Block 30/32. The Flight Internmational did not mentioned how much time frame left can be gain by MLU's those Block 30-32.

In here many Pro's and Con's already occured on potential deal of F-16. The con's wants new Block 52, but also some that wants us not to obtains any F-16 more. Basically many still have hard feeling to US on the previous embargo's.

The Pro's maintain, that getting Used airframe but with modifications will improved the Air Force readiness. In short it's better to get 24 used airframes, rather than only 6-8 brand new Block 52. Besides the Block 30-32 MLU potentially still a potent air frame that's still execeded JF-17 that's also being offered by Chinese and Pakistan. Also TNI Au already familiar with F-16.

In short the pro's and cons talking on matter of Quality vs Quantity.
 

OPSSG

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In other news, link of the Embraer press release on the Super Tucano deal for 8 aircraft plus ground support stations and an integrated logistics package.

In short the pro's and cons talking on matter of Quality vs Quantity.
If its a choice between:

(i) 24 + 10 = 34 (older F-16 air frames)

OR

(ii) 10+6=16 (10 old + 6 new)

If it were me, I'll pick option (i), provided the operating and owning costs can be managed via having commonality of engines and avionics. If it's a mix, different engines and different avionics then I'll have more concerns. The traditional problem I feel is readiness via sortie generation capability (not just total fleet size) and if that can be fixed, larger numbers could prove decisive in certain regional conflict scenarios, if the training and supporting systems are up to scratch.
 
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Ananda

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In other news, link of the Embraer press release on the Super Tucano deal for 8 aircraft plus ground support stations and an integrated logistics package.


If its a choice between:

(i) 24 + 10 = 34 (older F-16 air frames)

OR

(ii) 10+6=16 (10 old + 6 new)

If it were me, I'll pick option (i), provided the operating and owning costs can be managed via having commonality of engines and avionics. If it's a mix, different engines and different avionics then I'll have more concerns. The traditional problem I feel is readiness via sortie generation capability (not just total feet size) and if that can be fixed, larger numbers could prove decisive in certain regional conflict scenarios, if the training and supporting systems are up to scratch.

Agree, even the current Armed Forces Commander 'subtlely' already show that TNI inclined to have more F-16 even it's amodified used airframes. Sources in Mindef stated that Lockheed guarantee with existing F-16 MLU programs they offered, the 24 used F-16 being offered will have same MLU programs. In such those 34 F-16 after MLU will then have same engine and electronics/avionics. Also the packages will guarantee those MLU's F-16 will got more or less simmilar spare parts that's still being used by USAF. Thus improving logistics.

Just like you said, larger number F-16 populations potentially (if the logistics management right) will bring lower life cost cycle. However this is Indonesia, thus some Opposition will come out to whatever the Administrations doing eventhough it's sometimes ones' that sound foolish.
For example; some oppositions politician suggest the money will be spent toward getting JF-17, J-10 or Flankers, since it will create lower operation costs. Come on :D they argue on higher operation costs on F-16 (eventhough Air Forces already said to them in Parlements F-16 still the cheapest operating cost fast jet TNI AU have), and they suggest getting another aircraft (like JF-17) that will create logistical problems and thus higher operating cost to overall fleet.

Anyway, getting along with US in the current political situations will create some oppositions. However if the money really there, I believe they (TNI AU) still prefered to get those 24 airframes.
 
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For example; some oppositions politician suggest the money will be spent toward getting JF-17, J-10 or Flankers, since it will create lower operation costs. Come on :D they argue on higher operation costs on F-16 (eventhough Air Forces already said to them in Parlements F-16 still the cheapest operating cost fast jet TNI AU have), and they suggest getting another aircraft (like JF-17) that will create logistical problems and thus higher operating cost to overall fleet.
.
Not to mention a less capable aircraft. Even Pakistan recognises the JF-17 represents the "Lo" side of their own "Hi-Lo" construct within their airforce...

A fleet of 2x squadrons equipped with F-16 Block 52 (or equivalent) will provide a strong, credible capability for Indonesia. A fleet of 10x F-16's, some JF-17's, some SU-27/30's etc would create another "more of the same" situation.

IMHO, Indonesia should be consolidating on a two tier fighter force with SU-30 representing the high end and F-16 the "low" end, supplemented (as appears to be the case) with Super Tucanos to provide lead in fighter training and COIN/internal security operations capability.

I'd suggest the new fighter being built in conjunction with the South Koreans could be a longer term replacement for the F-16 with older F-16's airframes phased out over time in favour of the new fighter...
 
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Ananda

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IMHO, Indonesia should be consolidating on a two tier fighter force with SU-30 representing the high end and F-16 the "low" end, supplemented (as appears to be the case) with Super Tucanos to provide lead in fighter training and COIN/internal security operations capability.

I'd suggest the new fighter being built in conjunction with the South Koreans could be a longer term replacement for the F-16 with older F-16's airframes phased out over time in favour of the new fighter...
Yep, focusing on Flankers and F-16 is actually what TNI AU aimed for near future. KF-X even with development on schedulle will need at least a decade to begin operational. Thus some TNI AU sources says KF-X is the futuer, but for now Flankers and F-16 are what we want. Again like I said before in this thread, 'TNI AU admired and happy with their Flankres, but They simply Loved their F-16'.
While for COIN, personally I'm not thrilled with COIN, considering the Army already getting more MI-35. I prefered the replacement of Hawk MK 53 and OV-10 can be covered by same light weight jets. The offer for L-159 from Checks, actually in my oppinion was a good one (they offered 32 L-159 at the same prices of 16 competing LIFT).

Anyway those nonsense for Chinese Fighters're commings from factions that rejected closer relationship with US (mostly Hard Line Moeslem groups/parties and Leftist group/parties that camouflage as Nationalists). I say nonsense since intriducing Chinese airframes will only increase the problem of TNI AU fleet readiness.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
From French Agence-Presse:



Confirmation on SuperTucano deals from Embraer. The deal only for 8 aircraft, eventhough the amount of deal according Kompas is USD 142 mio. Means the logistics and supporting packages is quite significant. No confirmation whether this deal is 8 fixed and 8 optional, since the TNI-AU proposed for 16 Super Tucano's.
The first batch of 8 KT-1B costed us $60 milion, that means that the Super Tucano is incredible expansive and a waste of money, even with huge logistics and supporting packages.
 

Sandhi Yudha

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Agree, even the current Armed Forces Commander 'subtlely' already show that TNI inclined to have more F-16 even it's amodified used airframes. Sources in Mindef stated that Lockheed guarantee with existing F-16 MLU programs they offered, the 24 used F-16 being offered will have same MLU programs. In such those 34 F-16 after MLU will then have same engine and electronics/avionics. Also the packages will guarantee those MLU's F-16 will got more or less simmilar spare parts that's still being used by USAF. Thus improving logistics.

Just like you said, larger number F-16 populations potentially (if the logistics management right) will bring lower life cost cycle. However this is Indonesia, thus some Opposition will come out to whatever the Administrations doing eventhough it's sometimes ones' that sound foolish.
For example; some oppositions politician suggest the money will be spent toward getting JF-17, J-10 or Flankers, since it will create lower operation costs. Come on :D they argue on higher operation costs on F-16 (eventhough Air Forces already said to them in Parlements F-16 still the cheapest operating cost fast jet TNI AU have), and they suggest getting another aircraft (like JF-17) that will create logistical problems and thus higher operating cost to overall fleet.

Anyway, getting along with US in the current political situations will create some oppositions. However if the money really there, I believe they (TNI AU) still prefered to get those 24 airframes.
"Sources in Mindef stated that Lockheed guarantee with existing F-16 MLU programs they offered, the 24 used F-16 being offered will have same MLU programs. In such those 34 F-16 after MLU will then have same engine and electronics/avionics. Also the packages will guarantee those MLU's F-16 will got more or less simmilar spare parts that's still being used by USAF. Thus improving logistics."
If this is true than the first option ( 10 upgraded Block 15 OCUs and 24 upgraded Block 32s) is indeed the best and most cost efficiently option.

Acquiring Chinese JF-17s will be the most stupid option. I expect that idea comes from Megawati's semi -communist PDI-P..
 
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The first batch of 8 KT-1B costed us $60 milion, that means that the Super Tucano is incredible expansive and a waste of money, even with huge logistics and supporting packages.
The first batch is the dearest. You have to have all the training and support equipment to support the asset whether you have 8 aircraft or 16 aircraft...

Australia's DMO relatively recently commented that out of overall aircraft package price, only about 70% is actually the aircraft themselves. The other 30% is everything else you need to actually operate the aircraft. The upside is that once you have paid for that, you generally don't need to spend as much to expand your fleet. Within reason. A substantially larger fleet is going to require more support, obviously.

None of this touches on through life support of a capability however. Only the initial acquisition price...
 

Ananda

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The first batch of 8 KT-1B costed us $60 milion, that means that the Super Tucano is incredible expansive and a waste of money, even with huge logistics and supporting packages.
The Embrear sources says that each super tucano will USD 10 mio, thus for 8 we have to pay USD 80 mio, and the USD 60 mio that you've mentioned is for support and logistics. What I like to knoe is previous info from Mindef, and Finance Ministry stated that the deal has to included so off-set or sub-contract with DI. This that I still haven't find if this deal also included deal for DI and how much.

BTW, Megawati people really want to be called 'nationalist'...just repulsive statement indicated that anyone that's not 'leftist' in their mind is 'capitalist' cronies.:D
 

Feanor

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The first batch is the dearest. You have to have all the training and support equipment to support the asset whether you have 8 aircraft or 16 aircraft...

Australia's DMO relatively recently commented that out of overall aircraft package price, only about 70% is actually the aircraft themselves. The other 30% is everything else you need to actually operate the aircraft. The upside is that once you have paid for that, you generally don't need to spend as much to expand your fleet. Within reason. A substantially larger fleet is going to require more support, obviously.

None of this touches on through life support of a capability however. Only the initial acquisition price...
Out of curiosity, what percentage of total lifetime cost, does acquisition cost account for? I mean typically.
 
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Aussie Digger

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Out of curiosity, what percentage of total lifetime cost, does acquisition cost account for? I mean typically.
Gary answered that recently, somewhere... I'm pretty sure he mentioned somewhere in the vicinity of 3-4 times the acquisition cost, generally gives you the TLS cost. Dependin of course on an enormous range of factors (fleet size, upgrades, major repairs that have to be made etc).

As a very good example, Australia's17x F-111's cost about AUD$160m per year to operate...

We have operated them for 37 years. The initial purchase price was $100m (1963), but rose to $300m (in 1969) for 24x bombers...

I guess we've funded TLS and upgrades to the tune of about $6-7 billion over the years...
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
The first batch is the dearest. You have to have all the training and support equipment to support the asset whether you have 8 aircraft or 16 aircraft...

Australia's DMO relatively recently commented that out of overall aircraft package price, only about 70% is actually the aircraft themselves. The other 30% is everything else you need to actually operate the aircraft. The upside is that once you have paid for that, you generally don't need to spend as much to expand your fleet. Within reason. A substantially larger fleet is going to require more support, obviously.

None of this touches on through life support of a capability however. Only the initial acquisition price...
Like i said The first batch of 8 KT-1B costed us $60 milion,while the 8 Super Tucano's will cost $142 million. That is 2,4 x more expansive for the same amount of aircrafts and in both cases they are first batches.
According Wikipedia, the EMB314 is around twice the price of a KT-1, while the performance/capabilities are not twice the KT-1B. So thats why i said its a waste of money,.
 

Ananda

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From Seputar Indonesia (Sindo) daily with Google Translate:

JAKARTA (SINDO) - Secretary of Defense (SecDef) Purnomo Yusgiantoro said, life (life time) is one of the factors that are considered by Indonesia to accept the grant F-16 aircraft from the United States.

Purnomo said minimum life time which is calculated using the Ministry of Defence (Kemhan) and Armed Forces that is until 2020. With assumption, he said, at that time Indonesia was able to produce KFX fighter which is 4.5 generation fighter aircraft. Currently, he explained, development and research is being conducted along the plane in South Korea. "So, considering that the new total of six new units or not as many as 24 units which have been upgraded with the same budget and have a deterrence capability.

The key word in life time, "said Purnomo after receiving the U.S. Ambassador to Indonesia Scot Marciel Kemhan Office, Jakarta, yesterday. Therefore, he said, Mindef will check the structure of the planes. Because, the dream Kemhan, is looking for bracing squadron that could be used until 2020. "So, select and purchase a new or a grant to upgrade the ability to be reliable and support until the plane KFX production ready. KFX is a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft, while the F-16's generation 4, "he said. Defense also said, relating this grant, the team has come from the United States to discuss technical matters with the TNI Air Force.

Purnomo explained that this grant is one part of the Excess Defense Article (EDA), the United States. "United States of his surplus aircraft. If released to the EDA program will also reduce their defense budgets, "he explained. TNI Commander Admiral Agus Suhartono previously admitted, the military are very pleased to accept the plan grants the aircraft from the United States, the plane was still unsuitable for use until 2025.
This is more a confirmation that MLU program for existing F-16 and possible used F-16 MLU from US is as 'stop gap' until KF-X ready. Based on this, seems the options on getting 24 F-16 MLU seems getting momentum rather than 6 (or 10 from other source) brand new F-16 block 52. From other newspaper, TNI-AU Commander also said that all the F-16 will be based in Madiun. Currently Madiun is the base for F-16 sq and F-5 Sq. This further confirmation that additional F-16 will be used as replacement for F-5.

With this, it's more and more clear TNI AU fast jets will be based to Flankers and F-16, whille still maintain Hawk 200 as light attack force and Super Tucano as COIN at least until KF-X ready. Now still wait on which candidates for LIFT (although on Indo-Defence seems the KAI quite confidences that T-50 will win LIFT procurements).

If the deal goes through, then the TNI AU Combat Fleet Order in the near future will be:

2 sq F-16 (10 existing + 24 used replacing F-5) MLU
1 sq Flankers (10 existing + 6 new order) possible 8 Su-30 Mk2 + 8 Su-27 Mk2
2 sq Hawk 100/200 ( 26 Hawk 209 + 8 Hawk 109 as latest Inventory)
1 sq Super Tucano ( 8 confirmed order + 8 option) replacing OV-10
1 sq LIFT ( 16 as target) replacing Hawk Mk 53

Total 7 sq. While the Ministry of Defences and TNI aimed for 10 sq, still no idea where those 3 additional sq will come by.
 

Ananda

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Indonesian Near Future Procurements Plans

From Aviation Week.

JAKARTA, Indonesia — Indonesia is planning to place an order for jet trainers and is interested in expanding its fleet of fighters, helicopters and fixed-wing transports.

The country’s defense minister, Purnomo Yusgiantoro, says the three finalists in the jet trainer competition are from South Korea, Russia and the Czech Republic. Industry executives say the types are the Korea Aerospace Industries T-50, Yakovlev Yak-130 and Aero Vodochody L-159, respectively.

Purnomo tells AVIATION WEEK that a decision will be made soon and Indonesia plans to order 16 aircraft, enough for one squadron. “It is already in the final process,” he says, without noting a definite time frame.

“We are looking for aircraft that can be used for training and as a light attack fighter,” he says. “Light fighters are good for intercepting aircraft that cross your territory without giving notice.”

Indonesia needs jet trainers because about half its BAE Hawks are grounded, Purnomo says, noting that the country has had difficulties getting spare parts and equipment for the Hawks. “I stressed to the chairman of BAE, they need to trust us and give us the spares. They promised to improve relations,” he says, adding that if there is no improvement, Indonesia will have to phase out the Hawks.

South Korea could be the front-runner in the jet trainer competition due to the strategic importance Indonesia places on that relationship. “The air force is the end user and they have to make a technical evaluation,” Purnomo says. But once the air force makes a choice, it goes to the armed forces headquarters for approval, and then it goes to the ministry of defense, he says. The ministry “understands what the government’s interest is,” he adds.

Indonesia and South Korea signed a memorandum of understanding in July to develop a new fighter, the KF-X, and the Indonesian state-owned aircraft manufacturer Indonesian Aerospace will be involved . Purnomo says Indonesia wants to start putting KF-X fighters into service with its air force in 2025 and start replacing their Lockheed Martin F-16s.

But in the near term, Lockheed Martin could benefit. “There is budget for brand-new F-16s or used F-16s,” Purnomo says. “With used F-16s we can get more and upgrade it ourselves [with help from overseas], which is attractive to us”. But if Indonesia buys used F-16s, then it has to take into consideration the aircraft’s life-cycle . Indonesia already has F-16 A/B Block 15 aircraft and Purnomo confirms that Indonesia wants these upgraded.

The U.S. no longer has an arms embargo against Indonesia, but there are some technical issues to be ironed out , government officials say. Purnomo says Indonesia can always turn to a non-U.S. company to upgrade the F-16s. “There is Turkey. They have the biggest F-16 fleet after the U.S.,” he says.

Bell Helicopter and Eurocopter recently secured deals thanks to their partnerships with state-owned aircraft maker Indonesian Aerospace, which helps manufacture the helicopters. Purnomo says the country’s army recently signed a firm contract with Indonesian Aerospace for 24 Bell 412EP utility helicopters. He also says the air force is buying more Eurocopter AS332 Super Puma helicopters made by Indonesian Aerospace.

Indonesia also has a future requirement for helicopters to be stationed on its navy’s corvettes and be used for anti-submarine warfare. Four Dutch-built Sigma 9113-class corvettes were purchased recently, and it has a fifth corvette under construction at a shipyard in Surabaya.

Another future procurement will be for additional Sukhoi fighters. Indonesia already has 10 and Purnomo says the country plans to buy six more so it can form a squadron.

In terms of military transports, upgrades to its older-model Lockheed C-130s are on the wish list. The country also hopes to buy more Indonesian Aerospace CN-235s and is looking for a replacement for its aging Fokker F27s, with the EADS CASA C-295 a possible contender.
This is not a News actually. It's more confirmation that has been stated before including from my previous posts. However what I want to emphasis is that the parties that already established good relationship with DI/IAe, sems will be gettingthe upper hand.

On the light fighters issue, on Indo-Defence DI and KAI already reach agreement for Join Marketing for CN 235 and T-50. This strong indications that T-50 will get near confirmation (at least in my book) to replace Hawk Mk 53 as LIFT. However if seeing the interview with Minister of Defence, he seems put soft ultimatum to BAE, that if you don't support TNI AU with Hawk (and I read this means Hawk 109-209) there's good possibilities that those Hawk will faced early retirement and be replaced by whoever wins LIFT contracts.
Whether BAE will then give more support (and I believe to local industry to established local maintanances) will have to be seen.

Also the replacement for Fokker F-27 has been around for some time, in which the Air Force aiming for C-27. Still with already strong ties with EADS that DI have, C-295 in my book potential front runner. Irronically, CASA before launching on it's own the C-295 asked DI (then IPTN) to engage with the projects. However Habibie rejected it since he wants to go solo with now defunct N-250.

Those ASW Helicopters is also interesting stories. The Navy aim for Sea Lynx, however with Bell seems getting more deal with DI, it's not imposible ASW versions of 412 EP can be a strong candidate. Logistically it's make sense since Bell 412 now is the medium helicopters standard in 3 TNI services.
 

Ananda

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TNI AU- RSAF Exercise in Denpasar Bali.

From Alutsista.Blogspot ALUTSISTA : ALAT UTAMA SISTEM SENJATA: Latihan Bersama TNI-AU dan RSAF di Bali

The exercise included nearly all latest Inventories (fighters) from TNI AU and RSAF including Su-30 Mk2 and F-15 SG. Just wandering what is the result on exercises between F-15 SG and Flankers Mk2

Not to make comparison, just wandering since this two are often being compared in many various forum by the Internet Fanboys.
 
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From Alutsista.Blogspot ALUTSISTA : ALAT UTAMA SISTEM SENJATA: Latihan Bersama TNI-AU dan RSAF di Bali

The exercise included nearly all latest Inventories (fighters) from TNI AU and RSAF including Su-30 Mk2 and F-15 SG. Just wandering what is the result on exercises between F-15 SG and Flankers Mk2

Not to make comparison, just wandering since this two are often being compared in many various forum by the Internet Fanboys.
Very much doubt they've gone head to head in any sort of "free play" scenaro. Exercises are highly scripted and the results are generally meaningless as far as capability goes because "wartime modes" on sensors, weapons and EW kit aren't used and each participant has certain roles within the exercise designed to allow for certain training outcomes.

The results that net-nerds gloat over with enormously one-sided results are more often than not explainable because a certain aircraft is MEANT to be "killed" during the exercise to successfully achieve an outcome.

"Red Forces" often also simulate less capable aircraft as these are the "threat" representative aircraft that a particular Blue force wishes to train against and again, are often "killed" in large numbers. It is meaningless as to the capability of the Red Force aircraft though...

I am also aware that the Singaporeans are quite touchy about revealing their full capability (rightfully so IMHO) so any exercise results must be viewed with this in mind and be taken accordingly with a large grain of salt...

Very nice to see them flying side by side however... Without geting into an a vs B type comparison, I think it fairly safe to say that the SU-30 would have a slight agility advantage and basic airframe performance advantage over F-15SG. F-15Sg is likely to have an advantage in sensors, weapons, EW, avionics, reliability and combat radius/persistance.

One can make their own mind up about the relative importance of these overall attributes, especially considering the overwhelmingly dominant attribute of combat being which party has the superior "situational awareness".

WW1 pilots didn't invent the "attacking from out of the sun" tactic because it looks dramatic on film...
 

OPSSG

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To add to Aussie Digger's post, which I'm in agreement with:

Not to make comparison, just wandering since this two are often being compared in many various forum by the Internet Fanboys.
As with many DACTs (see this thread, here for more info on DACTs), I can predict that the Blue Team 'won' and that the Red Team 'lost' in the exercise. The issue is who is in the Red Team, how many casualties did the Red Team inflict on the Blue Team, and how the odds are stacked against the Red Team. The goal is to build confidence for the Blue Team and let them practice medium to large force employment in an exercise scenario relevant to TNI-AU's training needs.

Given the size of force and large number of types of of RSAF aircraft deployed, it is likely that Singapore provided aircraft for the Red Ream and the Blue Team. In DACTs, it is likely that the Red Team lost and I'm sure 'losing' is also a good learning experience for RSAF pilots in the Red Team. And I think at this stage, RSAF is happy to contribute aircraft for the Red Team to increase exercise realism so as to enable more meaningful exchange of views between our guys and your guys in the exercise debrief.

I'm not sure if the F-15SGs flew with your country's Mk2's or against them. But I'm sure it's a good learning experience for both sides. As a Singaporean, I am thankful to your government's hospitality and the opportunity for the RSAF to train with the TNI-AU.

The exercise included nearly all latest Inventories (fighters) from TNI AU and RSAF including Su-30 Mk2 and F-15 SG. Just wandering what is the result on exercises between F-15 SG and Flankers Mk2
The fact the RSAF deployed a wide range of aircraft types (F-5, F-16s, F-15s and even a Fokker-50) to the latest Indonesian hosted exercise, at Exercise Elang Indopura 2010, reinforces the bilateral relations of both countries.

This exercise also serves to further augment the close working relationship between the two air forces. Exercise Elang Indopura 2010 consists of a Command Post Exercise phase conducted from 20 to 21 Oct 2010 at Changi Command and Control Centre in Singapore, and an Air Manoeuvre Exercise, which is being conducted from 26 Nov to 10 Dec 2010 at Ngurah Rai Air Base in Bali, Indonesia. This year's exercise also included a one-day joint socio-civic programme, which saw RSAF and TNI-AU personnel providing basic health and dental care to the local community in Ngurah Rai.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
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As with many DACTs (see this thread, [URL="http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/dissimilar-air-combat-training-dact-1157/]here[/URL] for more info on DACTs), I can predict that the Blue Team 'won' and that the Red Team 'lost' in the exercise. The issue is who is in the Red Team, how many casualties did the Red Team inflict on the Blue Team, and how the odds are stacked against the Red Team. The goal is to build confidence for the Blue Team and let them practice medium to large force employment in an exercise scenario relevant to TNI-AU's training needs.

Given the size of force and large number of types of of RSAF aircraft deployed, it is likely that Singapore provided aircraft for the Red Ream and the Blue Team. In DACTs, it is likely that the Red Team lost and I'm sure 'losing' is also a good learning experience for RSAF pilots in the Red Team. And I think at this stage, RSAF is happy to contribute aircraft for the Red Team to increase exercise realism so as to enable more meaningful exchange of views between our guys and your guys in the exercise debrief.
Yes personally I do not think F-15 SG and SU-30 Mk2 will faced each other also in this exercises scenarios. Seems I think the red team will be RSAF F-5. I think F-5 will be a choice for Red Team, while the Blue Team will consists what RSAF and TNI AU think as their primary assets (F-15 SG and F-16 Block 52 for RSAF and SU 30 Mk2 and F-16 for TNI AU). If their conditions right I think TNI AU will also bring their F-5 for Red Team. However condidering the detoriation of TNI AU F-5 whille in the same time their slated to be replaced (thus no intentions to upgrade them anymore), their participations will be questionable.

With particaption of each air forces primary assets off course show that both air force feels comfortable to each other. This development (from Yesterday Kompas dailly) show further cooperation.

DENPASAR, KOMPAS.com - As a sign of increased defense cooperation the two countries, Indonesia and Singapore, on Wednesday (12/08/2010), agreed to establish a school for combat flight instructor in Indonesia. That is one result of the meeting between President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and Singaporean Deputy Prime Minister Teo Chee Hean in Nusa Dua, Bali, on Wednesday (12/08/2010) evening local time.

Said Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro, who accompanied the President in the meeting, when asked by the press after the meeting. " The Agreement will be discussed again by the respective Chief of Staff of the Air Forces," said Purnomo.
Creating a joint air combat school seems remind me with seperate offered by ROKAF before for building regional combat scholl modelling to Nato Combat scholl in Canada. That could be interesting.
 
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