A different outcome to WW2
- Thread starter long live usa
- Start date
There were many mistakes and failures made by Germany and Japan during WW2 which effectively sealed their fate, however even very late in the war both Germany and Japan were close to developing nuclear weapons. Japan lacked credible delivery systems but Germany did not.
By October 1944 nuclear scientist Dr Wilhelm Groth advised Goering's private secretary in a preface to a report that the technical issues of enriching Uranium were overcome and production of U235 was in hand.
Indeed at least ten Mark III-B ultracentrifuges were completed by the Hellage factory in Freiburg before it was bombed on 27 November 1944. A single ultracentrifuge cost between twelve and fifteen thousand Reichsmarks and Dr Essau had budgeted 600,000 Reichsmarks for manufacture of mark III-B ultracentrifuges costing fifteen thousand Reichsmarks each.
A uranium enrichment plant was operating at a disused linen factory at Kandern near the Bavarian border with Switzerland in late 1944, codenamed Angora Farm.
In December 1941 Groth had estimated from trials by Dr Erich Bagge at Kiel that each ultracentrifuge could produce two kilograms of Uranium Hexafluoride per day enriched by 7% each cycle. If one commenced with 36 kilograms (79lb) of un-enriched Uranium Hexafluoride and then cycled the entire mass about 250 times through one mark III-B ultracentrifuge, one would end up with bomb grade (90%+U235) Uranium Hexaflouride. That is to say enough U235 for one Uranium atom bomb after 9 months.
With ten centrifuges working together the Nazis could have produced enough HEU for a Uranium atomic bomb in under a month and they could have done so any time from October 1944.
If you then accept that the Nazis could have built a uranium A-bomb by early 1945 and also could have deployed it as a weapon in the battlefield, or even against the UK etc then the real question becomes why didn't they use it?
I am satisfied Germany could have developed and used 3-4 A-bombs in 1945 but that there was a political intervention and those in control of Germany's A-bomb by 1945 (Himmler's SS) were in fact by then in talks with the Americans and trading whatever they could offer to escape the consequences of war.
There is a name for these negotiations: Operation Sunrise.
Sources:
Dr Wilhelm Groth’s laboratory reports based on diary notes for December 1941 (Oak Ridge file G-82)
Postwar monograph Verlag Chemie GMBH, 1949: Über Gaszentrifugen written by Beyerle,
Groth, Harteck and Jensen.
ALSOS reports (Oak Ridge file G-83, G-95 and G-88 also refer)
By October 1944 nuclear scientist Dr Wilhelm Groth advised Goering's private secretary in a preface to a report that the technical issues of enriching Uranium were overcome and production of U235 was in hand.
Indeed at least ten Mark III-B ultracentrifuges were completed by the Hellage factory in Freiburg before it was bombed on 27 November 1944. A single ultracentrifuge cost between twelve and fifteen thousand Reichsmarks and Dr Essau had budgeted 600,000 Reichsmarks for manufacture of mark III-B ultracentrifuges costing fifteen thousand Reichsmarks each.
A uranium enrichment plant was operating at a disused linen factory at Kandern near the Bavarian border with Switzerland in late 1944, codenamed Angora Farm.
In December 1941 Groth had estimated from trials by Dr Erich Bagge at Kiel that each ultracentrifuge could produce two kilograms of Uranium Hexafluoride per day enriched by 7% each cycle. If one commenced with 36 kilograms (79lb) of un-enriched Uranium Hexafluoride and then cycled the entire mass about 250 times through one mark III-B ultracentrifuge, one would end up with bomb grade (90%+U235) Uranium Hexaflouride. That is to say enough U235 for one Uranium atom bomb after 9 months.
With ten centrifuges working together the Nazis could have produced enough HEU for a Uranium atomic bomb in under a month and they could have done so any time from October 1944.
If you then accept that the Nazis could have built a uranium A-bomb by early 1945 and also could have deployed it as a weapon in the battlefield, or even against the UK etc then the real question becomes why didn't they use it?
I am satisfied Germany could have developed and used 3-4 A-bombs in 1945 but that there was a political intervention and those in control of Germany's A-bomb by 1945 (Himmler's SS) were in fact by then in talks with the Americans and trading whatever they could offer to escape the consequences of war.
There is a name for these negotiations: Operation Sunrise.
Sources:
Dr Wilhelm Groth’s laboratory reports based on diary notes for December 1941 (Oak Ridge file G-82)
Postwar monograph Verlag Chemie GMBH, 1949: Über Gaszentrifugen written by Beyerle,
Groth, Harteck and Jensen.
ALSOS reports (Oak Ridge file G-83, G-95 and G-88 also refer)
@Kiwikid,you seem to have a distorted view of facts here and there.Nazi germany was never in a position to engineer and build let alone deliver atomic bombs of the era.What aircraft would they have used to deliver a 4ton plus A bomb with? Even the then mighty B29 struggled with the atomic bombs needing specially converted loading pits.Just to load a single weapon.Germany simply did not have the industrial infrastructure or $ to engineer and build either the B29,$3billion in 1940s cash
equvalent of around $34 billion in todays $ or the manhattahn project cost of $2billion or $22billion.$60 billion dollars for a weapon and delivery system that the germans doubted would detonate.
I believe you claim germany possesed 10 cyclotrons and that # of centrifuges would have produce enough U235 for several bombs.I would love to see documentation of the fact the had any
erffective atomic program including the alleged cyclotrons which IIRC the Iraqis have hundreds of modern atomic centrifuges yet have no bomb were yet aware of.As I said the germans possesed NO serious atomic prograjm. they did not even build an atomic pile for r and d until the war was nearly over,3years after the US. In actual fact kiddo US had a crash program from the 40s forward
with over 30 sites devoted to development of the atom bomb.The facilities ranged from a huge factorys full of these centrifuges needed to extract U235 from U238 an almost identical isotope OT
U 238 the majority isotope in uranium consists of 99.3 % of the toatl mass.U235 the radioactive iosotope used in the first type of US atomic weapon the cannon design which fired a slug of isotope @HV into another piece of U235 creating a critical mass and killing 100,000. With approximately 7kilos of u235.The loater fatman dropped over nagasaki require a mere 6.2 kilograms of plutonium and was a more powerful weapon but cloudy day poor aim a mere 40,000 were killed.I dont know how one would quantify the suffereing of the crispy critter survivors.And to whomever called the japanese bolt action battle rifle an Irasonka? Rifle in fact all were type 99 Arisaka 6.5 or 7.7 caliber,japanese small arms and vrew serfved weapons weren of mediocre design but generally servicable.Thier armor was of course atrocious,worse by far than any other nation Italians included!.Also of some interest the japanes did not have superior manpower over the germans to suggest the japs could recruit chinese or any other asian race is a mistake.The japanese still today view all other orientals as far inferior and have been warring amongst themselves for millenia and in fact during ww2 used the chinese civilian populace as test subjects for very nasty biological experiments experiments putting the germans almost to shame when pure cruelty was considered ,real humanitarians.yes the other orientals would have swarmed to the defence of Japan.LOL I really havent met a more racist people frankly than traditional japanese,they truly believe they are vastly superior to any other.
Also someone commented we stole or borrowed jap aircraft tech? Fact is prior to ww2 the japs went on an american aircraft buying spree and based many of thier aircraft on US designs the zero being one of the most notable.But since the zero possesed no self sealing fuel tanks and very little armor a short burst from improved american aircraft carrier planes made short work of both lightly built unarmored zeros and the only bombers the medium 2 engine Bettys.In contrast US aircraft were built not only with performance and firepower in mind but pilot survivability if shot down.Much easier to build another aircraft than train a new pilot.The loss of experienced jap pilots was a major defeat for jap airpower.Finally whomever suggested US/Brit airpower had limited effect on germany or japan needs to read a book or speak with an inhabitant of Berlin Or tokyo veteran of firebombing campaigns that killed more than the atomic weapons.
I have in fact studied a bit of military history in particular the american rev/civil wars, world wars,Korea, VN ,current conflicts etc.Research before you post men.:sleepy2
equvalent of around $34 billion in todays $ or the manhattahn project cost of $2billion or $22billion.$60 billion dollars for a weapon and delivery system that the germans doubted would detonate.
I believe you claim germany possesed 10 cyclotrons and that # of centrifuges would have produce enough U235 for several bombs.I would love to see documentation of the fact the had any
erffective atomic program including the alleged cyclotrons which IIRC the Iraqis have hundreds of modern atomic centrifuges yet have no bomb were yet aware of.As I said the germans possesed NO serious atomic prograjm. they did not even build an atomic pile for r and d until the war was nearly over,3years after the US. In actual fact kiddo US had a crash program from the 40s forward
with over 30 sites devoted to development of the atom bomb.The facilities ranged from a huge factorys full of these centrifuges needed to extract U235 from U238 an almost identical isotope OT
U 238 the majority isotope in uranium consists of 99.3 % of the toatl mass.U235 the radioactive iosotope used in the first type of US atomic weapon the cannon design which fired a slug of isotope @HV into another piece of U235 creating a critical mass and killing 100,000. With approximately 7kilos of u235.The loater fatman dropped over nagasaki require a mere 6.2 kilograms of plutonium and was a more powerful weapon but cloudy day poor aim a mere 40,000 were killed.I dont know how one would quantify the suffereing of the crispy critter survivors.And to whomever called the japanese bolt action battle rifle an Irasonka? Rifle in fact all were type 99 Arisaka 6.5 or 7.7 caliber,japanese small arms and vrew serfved weapons weren of mediocre design but generally servicable.Thier armor was of course atrocious,worse by far than any other nation Italians included!.Also of some interest the japanes did not have superior manpower over the germans to suggest the japs could recruit chinese or any other asian race is a mistake.The japanese still today view all other orientals as far inferior and have been warring amongst themselves for millenia and in fact during ww2 used the chinese civilian populace as test subjects for very nasty biological experiments experiments putting the germans almost to shame when pure cruelty was considered ,real humanitarians.yes the other orientals would have swarmed to the defence of Japan.LOL I really havent met a more racist people frankly than traditional japanese,they truly believe they are vastly superior to any other.
Also someone commented we stole or borrowed jap aircraft tech? Fact is prior to ww2 the japs went on an american aircraft buying spree and based many of thier aircraft on US designs the zero being one of the most notable.But since the zero possesed no self sealing fuel tanks and very little armor a short burst from improved american aircraft carrier planes made short work of both lightly built unarmored zeros and the only bombers the medium 2 engine Bettys.In contrast US aircraft were built not only with performance and firepower in mind but pilot survivability if shot down.Much easier to build another aircraft than train a new pilot.The loss of experienced jap pilots was a major defeat for jap airpower.Finally whomever suggested US/Brit airpower had limited effect on germany or japan needs to read a book or speak with an inhabitant of Berlin Or tokyo veteran of firebombing campaigns that killed more than the atomic weapons.
I have in fact studied a bit of military history in particular the american rev/civil wars, world wars,Korea, VN ,current conflicts etc.Research before you post men.:sleepy2
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The Nazi's V-1 and V-2 rockets started our space program and our nuclear weapons race with Russia so you have to give massive credit to Germans
Dude i agree with you Hilter was a dam idiot and should have never started a war since he had no military experience
wait i take that back he served in WWI until the end and he was in fact a military genius but he was way too dam hi to think straight from all the drugs he did for his "problems' and the sad part is that he committed suicide while hi. just sad
The Battle of the Atlantic, Karl Donitz plan and Hitlers rush to war.
There is an almost infinite number of points during the War, and prior to, that a fine tuned historical analysis could target and make a point that history could of changed if something different would of occured. One of those is during the battle of the Atlantic. German naval commander Karl Donitz, who commanded the submarine fleet, said he needed 300 u-boats to win the battle of the Atlantic. The Germans had 57, only 22 of which were ocean-going type VIIs. They still managed to implement a devastating campaign against supplies and convoys heading to Britain and elsewhere. The Nazi tactics proved deadly never the less and they were taking a heavy toll on Britain. The strategy should of been to continue the effort, build more u-boats and choke Britain off from US supplies. Instead Hitler diverted resources into the battle of Britain, pouring their assets against bombing, invading and defeating Britain. They were sinking more tonnage than the Allies could produce and eventually they would of choked Britain off and then could of invaded once they were weakened. The battle of Britain destroyed alot of Nazi assets that could of been used to battle supply convoys instead. Once Hitler postponed plans for the invasion of Britain, he then turned his attention East. The preperation for the invasion of the USSR was on. The generals worst nightmare was coming true, a two front war and possible American involvement. To leave Britain able to fight, be a staging ground for strategic bombing of Germany and eventually a jumping off point for an invasion of mainland Europe was a spectacular mistake. The invasion of Soviet territory diverted massive amounts of resources away from the Western front, leaving the Atlantic more open to supply Britain and others. Eventually the US was able to build more tonnage than the Germans could sink, invent new tactics, new technologies and new aircraft that could cover the entire convoy journey and provide protection from u-boat ambushes. If Hitler had concentrated on first squashing the supply system to Britain, then choking Britain off from outside help they would of been weakened to the point where a bombing campaign and eventual invasion would of worked. The US would then of had no place to stage their bombers from to strike Germany and eventually their Armies to invade Europe.
There is an almost infinite number of points during the War, and prior to, that a fine tuned historical analysis could target and make a point that history could of changed if something different would of occured. One of those is during the battle of the Atlantic. German naval commander Karl Donitz, who commanded the submarine fleet, said he needed 300 u-boats to win the battle of the Atlantic. The Germans had 57, only 22 of which were ocean-going type VIIs. They still managed to implement a devastating campaign against supplies and convoys heading to Britain and elsewhere. The Nazi tactics proved deadly never the less and they were taking a heavy toll on Britain. The strategy should of been to continue the effort, build more u-boats and choke Britain off from US supplies. Instead Hitler diverted resources into the battle of Britain, pouring their assets against bombing, invading and defeating Britain. They were sinking more tonnage than the Allies could produce and eventually they would of choked Britain off and then could of invaded once they were weakened. The battle of Britain destroyed alot of Nazi assets that could of been used to battle supply convoys instead. Once Hitler postponed plans for the invasion of Britain, he then turned his attention East. The preperation for the invasion of the USSR was on. The generals worst nightmare was coming true, a two front war and possible American involvement. To leave Britain able to fight, be a staging ground for strategic bombing of Germany and eventually a jumping off point for an invasion of mainland Europe was a spectacular mistake. The invasion of Soviet territory diverted massive amounts of resources away from the Western front, leaving the Atlantic more open to supply Britain and others. Eventually the US was able to build more tonnage than the Germans could sink, invent new tactics, new technologies and new aircraft that could cover the entire convoy journey and provide protection from u-boat ambushes. If Hitler had concentrated on first squashing the supply system to Britain, then choking Britain off from outside help they would of been weakened to the point where a bombing campaign and eventual invasion would of worked. The US would then of had no place to stage their bombers from to strike Germany and eventually their Armies to invade Europe.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Although the U-Boats were, for a while, sinking more shipping than the UK was producing the actual number of ships lost was very small, IIRC it was something like 4% of the entire merchant marine fleet. Again, effectively choking off Britain with American shipyards churning out a liberty ship every week (each) was a truly massive task.
First of all the battle of Britain was designed to force a political solution. It could have quite easily ended the war in 1940/41. Hitler would have been crazy not to strike while the UK was relatively weak; a mobilised UK in late 1941 was a far tougher nut to crack.
Second of all the battle of Britain did not divert resources away from the U-boat campaign. The air fleets used in the battle were already in existence and once the campaign changed to night operations the resources used were relatively small. The aircraft themselves were useless for commerce warfare. You can’t just magically retool aircraft factories and build submarines and you can’t just recycle aircraft parts to do the same. There was no way Germany could have fielded 300+ U-boat fleet until at least late 1941 simply because the production facilities would have to be built (instead of tank factories ect).
But the Germans had little choice. Massive amounts of resources were diverted to the eastern front simply because the Red Army existed. They didn’t have the capability to effectively wage large scale commerce warfare in 1940 or 1941 and with the need to maintain a massive standing army in the east it’s unlikely enough resources would have ever been available to make a commerce campaign effective. Remember the Germans were losing the battle of production AND the battle of technology; by 1943 U-boats were fair game on the surface.
So to sum up the Battle of Britain had little impact on the convoy campaign, it would have taken at least 2 years to build up sufficient resources to make a counter commerce campaign a realistic way of ending the war in the west and devoting enough resources was difficult due to the need to keep massive land formations in the east while the Soviet threat existed.
The only feasible way the Germans could have won the battle of the Atlantic was if the Soviet threat was removed and all of Germany’s resources could have been thrown into commerce warfare in the east.
Hitler had an obsession with massive artillery pieces and huge amounts of manpower and materials was expended in building monsters with little actual effect on the war. I wonder how far Germany would have been in the development of nuclear weapons if that had been Hitler's fancy? (albeit something else would have had to suffer considering the scale of resources necessary to produce a viable nuclear weapon). German industry would not have had a problem building one off nuclear warhead delivery aircraft. Wipe Moscow off the map at the start of Barbarossa and things might have been different. Utterly unlikely but...
Also, wasn't the RAF within weeks of defeat during the height of the Battle of Britain? I had been under the impression they could not find enough qualified pilots to fly airframes into the air to meet the Luftwaffe. Hitler's interference in the war definitely had a negative overall impact overall on German campaigns during the war. Let the pro's make tactical decisions. Admirals and Generals bossed around by a megalomaniac
If Germany had managed to maintain long term Air superiority over the British Isles maybe they could have forced Britain into peace before Barbarossa. Had the Werhmacht full autonomy and succesfully knocked out the Red Army and advanced to the Urals, had Hitler not declared war on the USA, Churchill would have been under intense pressure not to waste British strength against an enemy that could not spare the men or have the ships to invade nor could he hope to muster enough strength to land on continental Europe.
Why declare war on America with the USSR and UK still in fighting shape? Madness. I think Hitler counted on a knockout of both to some extent before America became too bothersome (who here thinks the USA had the resolve to fight both Germany and Japan to complete surrender alone?). I think he knew the odds of it all going well were against him but decided to go for it.
Japan on the other hand was always aware she would lose a war against America if she resolved to fight it to the end, as far as I've come to understand. Isn't it generally agreed that Japan underestimated the reaction the American's would have from Pearl Harbour? Again, if things had gone marvelously to plan Japan might have forced the USA to accept her new holdings in the Pacific. Maybe they could have even taken Hawaii if they scaled back on China (freeing up both divisions and keeping American oil flowing until hostilities) and made a grander all out first surprise assault.
Maybe Italy could have made a significant contribution to the European theater if she had begun a military buildup much earlier. But as far as I understand it there was simply not enough capital to build up Italy's lacking industrial capacity to anywhere near the German industrial outputs.
But hey, hindsight is 20/20
Also, wasn't the RAF within weeks of defeat during the height of the Battle of Britain? I had been under the impression they could not find enough qualified pilots to fly airframes into the air to meet the Luftwaffe. Hitler's interference in the war definitely had a negative overall impact overall on German campaigns during the war. Let the pro's make tactical decisions. Admirals and Generals bossed around by a megalomaniac
If Germany had managed to maintain long term Air superiority over the British Isles maybe they could have forced Britain into peace before Barbarossa. Had the Werhmacht full autonomy and succesfully knocked out the Red Army and advanced to the Urals, had Hitler not declared war on the USA, Churchill would have been under intense pressure not to waste British strength against an enemy that could not spare the men or have the ships to invade nor could he hope to muster enough strength to land on continental Europe.
Why declare war on America with the USSR and UK still in fighting shape? Madness. I think Hitler counted on a knockout of both to some extent before America became too bothersome (who here thinks the USA had the resolve to fight both Germany and Japan to complete surrender alone?). I think he knew the odds of it all going well were against him but decided to go for it.
Japan on the other hand was always aware she would lose a war against America if she resolved to fight it to the end, as far as I've come to understand. Isn't it generally agreed that Japan underestimated the reaction the American's would have from Pearl Harbour? Again, if things had gone marvelously to plan Japan might have forced the USA to accept her new holdings in the Pacific. Maybe they could have even taken Hawaii if they scaled back on China (freeing up both divisions and keeping American oil flowing until hostilities) and made a grander all out first surprise assault.
Maybe Italy could have made a significant contribution to the European theater if she had begun a military buildup much earlier. But as far as I understand it there was simply not enough capital to build up Italy's lacking industrial capacity to anywhere near the German industrial outputs.
But hey, hindsight is 20/20
chukahleong
New Member
If Britain were taken by the Nazis, the Allied powers would have automatically lost a vital military base in the European theater, thus crippled of the ability to launch major offensives, such as Operation Overlord directly over Nazi-held lands. The conquer of Britain would automatically mean the fall of Europe to the hands of the Axis powers, and the Allied powers would have to immediately search for any weak points present in the Nazi power base, such as the loosely defended Greece, where they can begin establishing a military base there. With the British technically weak in fighting abilities, the United States will have to handle the war by themselves then, together with other minor armies such as the Australian and New Zealand armies.
The Japs taking Pearl Harbor would mean the US immediately refocus their plans on the repelling on a possible Japanese invasion. Japan's plan was to erase all US naval presence on the Pacific Ocean and allow them to exploit the Asian nations without US intervention, but since they decided to attack the US as well, this is a different story.
The Soviets conquered by the Nazis will pose as a disaster to the Americans. Hitler's intention to take the Soviet Union was to obtain its rich resources, fulfill his propaganda obligations and also to deter USA from entering the war on Europe. So, if it really succeeded in taking the Soviet Union, USA might decide not to participate in the European war directly, or maybe even push for a peace negotiations treaty with the Nazis.
The Japs taking Pearl Harbor would mean the US immediately refocus their plans on the repelling on a possible Japanese invasion. Japan's plan was to erase all US naval presence on the Pacific Ocean and allow them to exploit the Asian nations without US intervention, but since they decided to attack the US as well, this is a different story.
The Soviets conquered by the Nazis will pose as a disaster to the Americans. Hitler's intention to take the Soviet Union was to obtain its rich resources, fulfill his propaganda obligations and also to deter USA from entering the war on Europe. So, if it really succeeded in taking the Soviet Union, USA might decide not to participate in the European war directly, or maybe even push for a peace negotiations treaty with the Nazis.
He-277 Strategic Bomber
At Obersalzberg on 23 May 1943 Hitler convened a conference of German aircraft manufacturers and demanded a strategic bomber which could bomb England night and day. Only Heinkel had an aircraft which could reach production quickly enough. This was the He-177H version, later renamed by RLM as the He-274 being prepared at Toulouse-Blagnac. Four pre production prototypes were also being prepared at Rostck Marienehe.
Based on the He-177 Grief, the He-177H was to be a high altitude bomber with a 6 ton payload capable of delivering bombs over England at 49,200 feet. It had a pressurised double glazed cabin. The prototype had four DB 603A engines converted to accomodate twin stage Bosch TK11 turbo-superchargers, thus known as the DB 603S. These engines unfortunately had poor TBO, due to unreliability of the turbosuperchargers. This in turn reflected the scarcity of suitable metals.
Unfortunately the He-274 had such divergence from the basic He-177A design in particular with it's undercarriage that in order to assist rapid production another design, the He-277 B-5 was developed at Vienna. This would have DB 603G engines, or in the B-6 Jumo 213F similar to the engines on Kurt Tank's incredible high altitude Focke Wulf Ta-152 Dora. The Dora could reach altitudes in excess of 48,000ft.
The He-277 could utilise much of the He-177A's existing production facilities at Oranienberg, Rostock and Vienna, The four He-177H pre-production aircraft at Rostock Marienehe were completed as He-177B prototypes and these in turn were modified after August 1944 for development of the He-277.
It is claimed at least 16 He-277 were built and that eight flew before production was cancelled on 3 July 1944 for the Emergency Fighter Production Plan. Six He-177 A-6/R1 and one He-177 A-6/R2 prototype aircraft are thought to have been converted to He-277. Several incomplete airfames were destroyed by bombing raids at Vienna in April and July 1944.
Intriguingly the He-177 A6/R series was designed to hang a single 2,500kg bomb external to the bomb bay. The A-6 was intended to be a high altitude bomber but it's engines would not deliver the performance hence the switch to He-277 development.
Had a small fleet of these aircraft been produced and operated over the UK by late 1944 then there might have been a diferent outcome to WW2.
At Obersalzberg on 23 May 1943 Hitler convened a conference of German aircraft manufacturers and demanded a strategic bomber which could bomb England night and day. Only Heinkel had an aircraft which could reach production quickly enough. This was the He-177H version, later renamed by RLM as the He-274 being prepared at Toulouse-Blagnac. Four pre production prototypes were also being prepared at Rostck Marienehe.
Based on the He-177 Grief, the He-177H was to be a high altitude bomber with a 6 ton payload capable of delivering bombs over England at 49,200 feet. It had a pressurised double glazed cabin. The prototype had four DB 603A engines converted to accomodate twin stage Bosch TK11 turbo-superchargers, thus known as the DB 603S. These engines unfortunately had poor TBO, due to unreliability of the turbosuperchargers. This in turn reflected the scarcity of suitable metals.
Unfortunately the He-274 had such divergence from the basic He-177A design in particular with it's undercarriage that in order to assist rapid production another design, the He-277 B-5 was developed at Vienna. This would have DB 603G engines, or in the B-6 Jumo 213F similar to the engines on Kurt Tank's incredible high altitude Focke Wulf Ta-152 Dora. The Dora could reach altitudes in excess of 48,000ft.
The He-277 could utilise much of the He-177A's existing production facilities at Oranienberg, Rostock and Vienna, The four He-177H pre-production aircraft at Rostock Marienehe were completed as He-177B prototypes and these in turn were modified after August 1944 for development of the He-277.
It is claimed at least 16 He-277 were built and that eight flew before production was cancelled on 3 July 1944 for the Emergency Fighter Production Plan. Six He-177 A-6/R1 and one He-177 A-6/R2 prototype aircraft are thought to have been converted to He-277. Several incomplete airfames were destroyed by bombing raids at Vienna in April and July 1944.
Intriguingly the He-177 A6/R series was designed to hang a single 2,500kg bomb external to the bomb bay. The A-6 was intended to be a high altitude bomber but it's engines would not deliver the performance hence the switch to He-277 development.
Had a small fleet of these aircraft been produced and operated over the UK by late 1944 then there might have been a diferent outcome to WW2.
I think that one needs to recall that not all wars end with total annihilation of the opponent - I have read a couple of books concerning the events in Great Britain around the fall of France. Basically Churchill appointment was still contested and a disaster at Dunkirk (or later on a collapse of RAF) could well have brought peace. The British was expecting that Hitler would demand something along the lines of half the Royal navy in exchange for peace and saw that as a to high price for peace, so they felt that they had no choice than to fight on. With a France pacified and the GB army in war camps in Germany a "mild" peace offer from Germany could have lead to a different outcome of internal British politics and a better strategic situation vs Soviet.
The Same thinking goes for Soviet as well, I read the Joachim Fest biograpy over Albert Speer and recall mentioning that the previous German head of production before Speer urged Hitler to find a peace solution already in the end of 1941 with Soviet, since the production war was already lost. Hitler did not like the idea - but if he had believed the statistics, would Stalin have considered a peace proposal that had lead to territorial loss fulfilling the German objectives? Perhaps not, but I recall reading that Soviet sometime as late as 1943 offered a peace proposal of reverting back to the pre-war border and they were in much better shape then. Both Stalin and Hitler would know that a peace would only be a postponement of the inevitable, question is who would have made better use of such a pause? (If my memory is not failing me there is a mentioning in Joachim Fest's Hitler biography that Hitler states that a peach with the Soviet would be useless since he would anyhow attack them again so they might just as well duke it out).
As mentioned earlier, the Nazi madness of ethnic cleansing and murder squads in the East was a serious mistake on more levels then the criminal - a lot of people was less then found of Stalin and his predecessors (remember that the commies fought an internal "war" at their own population that kept the Soviet population at post WW1 levels for decades) - Germans could have gotten away with "We are fighting the Commies not the people" and swayed more support in any remaining non-communist camp. Ideally they could have played this to fuel a contra-revolution and lighten the burden on the German Army to reach their objective of expansion in the east and access to natural resources - and not by occupying Soviet all the way to the other side on the world (quite a long way by the way, was it not Stalin that at the end of the war pointed at a map of Soviet's 11 time zones and exclaimed "What was he thinking!?!").
Concerning Japan, by the way, I think there is a passage in Joachim Fest's Hitler biography where Hitler outlined that Japan would be dealt with after USA was taken care of...
Cheers, Niclas
The Same thinking goes for Soviet as well, I read the Joachim Fest biograpy over Albert Speer and recall mentioning that the previous German head of production before Speer urged Hitler to find a peace solution already in the end of 1941 with Soviet, since the production war was already lost. Hitler did not like the idea - but if he had believed the statistics, would Stalin have considered a peace proposal that had lead to territorial loss fulfilling the German objectives? Perhaps not, but I recall reading that Soviet sometime as late as 1943 offered a peace proposal of reverting back to the pre-war border and they were in much better shape then. Both Stalin and Hitler would know that a peace would only be a postponement of the inevitable, question is who would have made better use of such a pause? (If my memory is not failing me there is a mentioning in Joachim Fest's Hitler biography that Hitler states that a peach with the Soviet would be useless since he would anyhow attack them again so they might just as well duke it out).
As mentioned earlier, the Nazi madness of ethnic cleansing and murder squads in the East was a serious mistake on more levels then the criminal - a lot of people was less then found of Stalin and his predecessors (remember that the commies fought an internal "war" at their own population that kept the Soviet population at post WW1 levels for decades) - Germans could have gotten away with "We are fighting the Commies not the people" and swayed more support in any remaining non-communist camp. Ideally they could have played this to fuel a contra-revolution and lighten the burden on the German Army to reach their objective of expansion in the east and access to natural resources - and not by occupying Soviet all the way to the other side on the world (quite a long way by the way, was it not Stalin that at the end of the war pointed at a map of Soviet's 11 time zones and exclaimed "What was he thinking!?!").
Concerning Japan, by the way, I think there is a passage in Joachim Fest's Hitler biography where Hitler outlined that Japan would be dealt with after USA was taken care of...
Cheers, Niclas
Astute observations Niclas. If you consult a Magic decrypt of a signal from Japan's embassy: ("Stockholm to Tokyo, No. 232.9 December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457, SRA 14628-32, declassified October 1, 1978.) you will find that Germany was using tactical nukes on the Russian front from June 1943, but were threatened by Stalin with massive retaliation using poison gas on Germany's civilian population. The threat was conveyed through Japanese envoys to Hitler.
Hitler then attempted to reach a cease fire with Stalin hence the soviet advance halted in Poland during 1944.
Hitler then entered negotiations with the United States brokered by General Electric Corp via Lisbon. GEC was a major shareholder in AEG and Osram. GEC also shared Tungsten Carbide trading rights with Krupp Industries throughout WW2 and was a significant backer of the Nazi party even after 1941. Indeed production of the V-2 was funded from loans raised by GEC on Wall Street. Thus USA and germany were talking behind the scenes via the Vatican embassy from 1943.
The war ended with various secret deals and ultimately the deals with Hitler were dumped on 27 April 1945 when the SS no longer paid him any heed. The SS however lived to fight another day recruited to work for the CIA during the Cold War.
In reply to grndpndr:
Operation Overcast recruited hundreds of Nazi scientists in various fields specifically to deny their genius from the Soviets and the obscuring of their achievements continued during the Cold War to deny clues to the Soviets. Falsehoods in particular many in respect of Heisenberg and others in respect of heavy water from Vemork are still perpetuated.
An example of the deliberate obfiscution of facts about Nazi nuclear efforts is found in NARA file G371, 3 page report by Monsanto scientists Weinberg and Nordheim to A.H Compton of Manhattan project on state of Nazi nuclear science in WW2. Dated Nov 8 1945. It posed it’s points as a series of Questions and Answers for Compton:
Other ridiculous assertions that Germany had no Heavy Water after sinking of the Hydro ferry. Harteck revealed after the war that he and Suess were tipped off in advance and arranged to send a dummy shipment on the ferry and evacuate the real heavy water by other means.
In addition to Vemork, Nazi Germany had four Heavy Water plants situated at Leuna, Kiel, Merano (northern Italy) and also at a location 16 km east of Hamburg.
Manhattan Project created two duplicate projects, one for a Uranium bomb by American scientists, and another for a Plutonium bomb with almost exclusively ex-patriate European scientists, so the real project cost should perhaps have only been $1 billion.
As to proof of a serious nuclear research project why take my word for it. Let me quote to you an outraged letter from Niels Bohr to Heisenberg after the war protesting the book "Brighter than a Thousand Suns" and it's self justifying commentry by Heisenberg:
Incidentally the Anschultz Mark IIIA Centrifuge produced 7.4 grams of Uranium enriched by 5% per day. These were installed in a plant at Celle.
The Hellage Mark IIIB Centrifuge produced 200 grams of Uranium enriched by 7% per day, per machine with ten machines built.
Both Japanese (S.Shimizu) and the Germans (Ardenne Laboratory) from 1941 were experimenting with photo-fusion of Lithium 6 with Thorium 232 to breed Uranium 233. This photo fusion also allowed breeding of Plutonium without nuclear reactors.
In response to the other comments you made, Japan enslaved millions of Chinese and Koreans to work in their industrial complexes at Hungnam and Shenyang etc. Japan acquired a lot of German technology but were in fact quite advanced in their own nuclear science.
Actually thanks to the diligent uncovering of obscured (and intentionally obscured) information about Nazi efforts each year now, new insights call into question what the true facts were.
Operation Overcast recruited hundreds of Nazi scientists in various fields specifically to deny their genius from the Soviets and the obscuring of their achievements continued during the Cold War to deny clues to the Soviets. Falsehoods in particular many in respect of Heisenberg and others in respect of heavy water from Vemork are still perpetuated.
An example of the deliberate obfiscution of facts about Nazi nuclear efforts is found in NARA file G371, 3 page report by Monsanto scientists Weinberg and Nordheim to A.H Compton of Manhattan project on state of Nazi nuclear science in WW2. Dated Nov 8 1945. It posed it’s points as a series of Questions and Answers for Compton:
Also;
Margaret Gowing rightly trashed the suggestion that Nazi nuclear scientists had no grasp of critical mass. Houtermanns calculated it accurately in November 1941 for Uranium and Plutonium. (Houtermanns, “Zer Frage der Auslosung” (Nov 1941) pp 31,33, Oak Ridge G-94, pp.139)
Other ridiculous assertions that Germany had no Heavy Water after sinking of the Hydro ferry. Harteck revealed after the war that he and Suess were tipped off in advance and arranged to send a dummy shipment on the ferry and evacuate the real heavy water by other means.
In addition to Vemork, Nazi Germany had four Heavy Water plants situated at Leuna, Kiel, Merano (northern Italy) and also at a location 16 km east of Hamburg.
Entirely debatable...
Heinkel He-277 with 6 ton bomb payload. At least eight examples flown and sixteen built before production was halted 3 July 1944 for Emergency Fighter Program. Could operate at 49,200 feet well above Allied fighters and far in excess of B-29’s service ceiling. Indeed several He-177 A-6/R1 prototypes were originally designed to carry a massive single SB6000 (6,000kg) bomb. Described as a hollow charge bomb. These A-6/R1 and a single A-6/R2 aircraft were converted early 1944 to He-277 B-5 aircraft.
But they did build the He-277 with superior performance to the B-29... strange that. Why would they bother building a bomber so superior to the B-29?
Heisenberg & Weisacker doubted it but it was Diebner, Gerlach, Schumann and Trinks behind the German A-bomb project and they did not doubt it at all. I think you confuse Heisenberg’s civilian teams with the Millitary A-bomb projects under Diebner ?
Manhattan Project created two duplicate projects, one for a Uranium bomb by American scientists, and another for a Plutonium bomb with almost exclusively ex-patriate European scientists, so the real project cost should perhaps have only been $1 billion.
Cyclotrons were not the preferred method for isotope separation. More of a research tool however I simply point out that they were well endowed in this regard.
As to proof of a serious nuclear research project why take my word for it. Let me quote to you an outraged letter from Niels Bohr to Heisenberg after the war protesting the book "Brighter than a Thousand Suns" and it's self justifying commentry by Heisenberg:
Would you like sources from ALSOS papers in NARA archives, or from other sources?
- Report on Uranium centrifuge plants at Kandern & Freiburg (Oak Ridge file box G-330)
- Dr Wilhelm Groth’s diary and reports (found in Oak Ridge file box G-146, 149, & 158)
- Beams Report of Jessie W. Beams, dated 9 April 1946 NARA file box G-344.
Incidentally the Anschultz Mark IIIA Centrifuge produced 7.4 grams of Uranium enriched by 5% per day. These were installed in a plant at Celle.
The Hellage Mark IIIB Centrifuge produced 200 grams of Uranium enriched by 7% per day, per machine with ten machines built.
When you make such a statement you betray the lack of depth of your own knowledge about German Nuclear projects in WW2.
Both Japanese (S.Shimizu) and the Germans (Ardenne Laboratory) from 1941 were experimenting with photo-fusion of Lithium 6 with Thorium 232 to breed Uranium 233. This photo fusion also allowed breeding of Plutonium without nuclear reactors.
That’s okay kiddo. When you’ve taken the time to read real WW2 archives come back and we can have a real discussion.
The fact is both Japan and Germany during WW2 developed centrifuge technology which defeated Manhattan Project engineers. German Centrifuges were 30 times more efficient than the gaseous diffusion method used by USA, so perhaps for every $2 Billion which USA spent Germany maybe spent about $66.6 million to get the same result.
No you have your facts wrong. Tall Boy the Uranium bomb dropped on Hiroshima had 60kg of Uranium 235 at 80% enrichment. Only 700 grams of which underwent fission.
Critical mass for Plutonium is about 9-11kg, but with a tamper of Uranium 238 drops to 4.4kg. Nagasaki suffered less casualties because hills shielded many inhabitants from direct blast effects.
In response to the other comments you made, Japan enslaved millions of Chinese and Koreans to work in their industrial complexes at Hungnam and Shenyang etc. Japan acquired a lot of German technology but were in fact quite advanced in their own nuclear science.
I don’t believe I ever suggested Allied Bombing had limited effect therefore assume your comment was directed at someone else? Allied airpower of course hugely sabotaged the German war effort.
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What if Japan had been smarter and attacked the Phillipines first? They could have goaded the Pacific Fleet into deep water and slaughtered the whole task force in one decisive blow. No where was Japan's fleet air arm more powerful than on December 7th.
What further boggles my mind is why Yamamoto committed precious carriers to bomb Dutch Harbor during Midway? What was he thinking?
In the end, the United States escaped the first decisive year by the mistakes of the imperial high command.
Neutral Zone
New Member
IIRC the Aleutian operation was a diversionary tactic to try and draw the Pacific Fleet away from Midway. But as the Americans had broken the Japanese codes and knew Midway was the main objective.
I do agree that the whole Coral Sea/Aleutian/Midway plan was too complex. An all out assault on Midway and Hawaii with all available assets was probably a better strategy.
Quite a mistake given that the Pacific Fleet at that time had only 29 operational combatants including the four carriers.
Midway just fell right for us didn't it? So many variables could have tipped the scales in Japan's favor. If they had one intel guy who could have decyphered Midway's condensor problem as a ruse. If the torpedo bombers had arrived at the same time as the dive bombers. If Yamamoto had brought the full weight of his naval air assets. If the cruiser Tone's scout plane had gotten off at the right time or if the radio from the Soryu scout plane had worked.
Fate just falls in the right places.
Both japan & Germany were whispers away from winning WWII and most Brits and Americans knew it. Hitler lost many opportunties with stupid mistakes he made as a 'Corporal'...not a General. Japan, simply ran out of qualified Leaders and pilots.....and resources. If they both had only waited another year to bring America into the fray, well, it might be America split at the Mississippi River and
a struggle within that concept for power, as well. Germany had new and great weapons of the future...Japan had some BIO-stuff going on that would have changed the world if utilized...they are recognized today for it; the Germans are not recognized for their efforts in rocketery or Nucs ! It was CLOSE !!
a struggle within that concept for power, as well. Germany had new and great weapons of the future...Japan had some BIO-stuff going on that would have changed the world if utilized...they are recognized today for it; the Germans are not recognized for their efforts in rocketery or Nucs ! It was CLOSE !!