The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[1805]

I would like to pose a couple of simple questions.

How effective could the F-35 be without fixed wing AEW to support a carrier force?

Would helo-AEW be sufficient in view of growing sensor capabilities of aggressor a/c?

The irony is that if the CVFs become catapult armed and E-2s get acquired, the cost savings argument goes right out the window (albeit more effective).

I hope and believe the RN will be able to achieve savings over the long term that will enable a handful of E2 to be aquired. All assuming they do go down the catapults route, I still suspect they will end up with F35b.

In reality the F35s are much more likely to spend their time in the strike role. I do wonder where this will untimately leave the RAF. A return to the 50s & 60s with RN aircraft seeing all the action and RAF facing the Cold War threat. But if this happens without a Soviet threat, the great RAF con will be exposed.

 

[t68]

I would like to pose a couple of simple questions.

How effective could the F-35 be without fixed wing AEW to support a carrier force?

Would helo-AEW be sufficient in view of growing sensor capabilities of aggressor a/c?

The irony is that if the CVFs become catapult armed and E-2s get acquired, the cost savings argument goes right out the window (albeit more effective).

With thanks to Systems addict for point me to a helpful site in another post found this snippet of possible saving of a cat trap set up QE over STOVL, sound good but not sure if he is right.

Grand Logistics: Why Catapults Are Cheaper

 

[t68]

This might sound silly but is a what if discussion,

At the moment only helicopters can work in the AEW role for the RN carriers both past and present if the RN stays with STOVL carriers for the Queen Elizabeth class the RN will still rely on helicopters for the AEW role.

Now to the what if part, what if the RN can have the best of both worlds of long range and VTOL/STOVL AEW in a turbo prop aircraft .if it was possible could a V-22 osprey be converted to AEW asset?

The cost burden would be huge but i would imagine once both carriers were equipped with their complement of F35B the RN would be looking at about 6 to 8 aircraft and possibly the Americans might be interested in doing the same for the 8 WASP/America class LHD force so the potential number of aircraft converted could be as high as 40 aircraft between the RN/USMC.

With the range speed and persistence advantage compared to a helicopter AEW asset would it justify the expense of building such a hybrid aircraft, or has this already been looked at and found not feasible with the oversize rotors in front and moving positions going from level flight to vertical.

 

[Twickiwi]

This might sound silly but is a what if discussion,

At the moment only helicopters can work in the AEW role for the RN carriers both past and present if the RN stays with STOVL carriers for the Queen Elizabeth class the RN will still rely on helicopters for the AEW role.

Now to the what if part, what if the RN can have the best of both worlds of long range and VTOL/STOVL AEW in a turbo prop aircraft .if it was possible could a V-22 osprey be converted to AEW asset?

The cost burden would be huge but i would imagine once both carriers were equipped with their complement of F35B the RN would be looking at about 6 to 8 aircraft and possibly the Americans might be interested in doing the same for the 8 WASP/America class LHD force so the potential number of aircraft converted could be as high as 40 aircraft between the RN/USMC.

With the range speed and persistence advantage compared to a helicopter AEW asset would it justify the expense of building such a hybrid aircraft, or has this already been looked at and found not feasible with the oversize rotors in front and moving positions going from level flight to vertical.

I've read that V-22 Osprey was considered for MASC.

Technically speaking the V-22 is an unpressurised airframe, so it would have to be converted to act like a E-2.

 

[1805]

With thanks to Systems addict for point me to a helpful site in another post found this snippet of possible saving of a cat trap set up QE over STOVL, sound good but not sure if he is right.

Grand Logistics: Why Catapults Are Cheaper

I am not sure I follow the costings on catapults either, but its actually a great website and quite amusing, its views on aircraft are very telling:

Grand Logistics: British Combat Aircraft Procurement

 

[1805]

Excellent post on the intentions of some within the RAF:

BRITAIN’S FAST JET FORCES – NATIONAL INTEREST VERSUS VESTED INTEREST. « The Phoenix Think Tank

 

[riksavage]

I've read that V-22 Osprey was considered for MASC.

Technically speaking the V-22 is an unpressurised airframe, so it would have to be converted to act like a E-2.

The real issue in my view is will a Merlin based AEW system provide adequate coverage when dovetailed with other new assets coming on-line (T45)? Not the best available (fixed wing the preferred option), but adequate for role considering the current threat level. Plus the pallet mounted AEW system planned for Merlin can be switched between airframes very quickly, can also be operated from a wide range of RN ships and has the added advantage of being useful as a land based asset (SeaKking AEW Afghanistan deployments supporting ground forces proved a great succes).

The fixed wing alternative has much greater range and ceiling, but is no way near as flexible, and if grounded due to mechanical failure the critical AEW technology cannot b transferred to a spare airframe whilst at sea.

With current budgetry constraints I believe cash could be invested elsewhere once the Merlin/AEW solution is up and running - not a Rolls Royce option, but a perfectly adequate four door saloon!

Having read the above post, I do hope the powers that be retain the GR9's over Tornado. With 160 Typhoon airframes now confirmed the GR9's can soldier on in the CAS role until the first batch of 40 F35B's arrive. Depending on what PW's final configeration looks like a second batch of F35B or C could then be ordered to tie in with ongoing EMCAT developments.

 

[stuuu28]

Could it be any worse?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/18/david-cameron-delay-trident-replacemen

Navy aircraft carrier will be sold after three years - and never carry jets - Telegraph

If this is true why mothball the QE in 2020 when if we believe the current government that the recovery should be well on its way?

Same with delaying main gate on the trident replacement looks like we save a we bit of money now and will end up paying a fortune later.

Seems like the Tory's will 30 later than planed kill off the Fleet Arm, step up Argentina in a couple of years time .

Finally if they think that defence against Cyber Attacks is a priority then this should be the first thing to be addressed. it was criminal that this was allowed to happen in the first place.
Spy chiefs fear Chinese cyber attack - Times Online

I don't post on here a lot. but the news i have been hearing tonight has wound me up more than anything has in a long time.

 

[1805]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/18/david-cameron-delay-trident-replacemen

Navy aircraft carrier will be sold after three years - and never carry jets - Telegraph

If this is true why mothball the QE in 2020 when if we believe the current government that the recovery should be well on its way?

Same with delaying main gate on the trident replacement looks like we save a we bit of money now and will end up paying a fortune later.

Seems like the Tory's will 30 later than planed kill off the Fleet Arm, step up Argentina in a couple of years time .

Finally if they think that defence against Cyber Attacks is a priority then this should be the first thing to be addressed. it was criminal that this was allowed to happen in the first place.
Spy chiefs fear Chinese cyber attack - Times Online

I don't post on here a lot. but the news i have been hearing tonight has wound me up more than anything has in a long time.

My heart sinks....if true (just seen the same on Newsnight so probably) what is the point in carriers with no aircraft, or a navy with no carriers.

A combination of arrogant RN stupidity, RAF cunning and economics have wrecked the fleet. While the RN put every foot wrong the RAF look like they have played a blinder on the Harrier

 

[Troothsayer]

A lot can happen in 9 years.

At the end of the day, the RN will be getting a CTOL carrier with a F35C airwing regardless of the fate of the other ship. Expect closer ties with France announced in November.
And lets be honest here, having GR.9's is playing at naval air and we have been for a good decade since the retirement of the Sea Harrier. Can't think of many airforces i'd fancy putting our pilots up against with those.

It looks like we've retained more of the surface fleet than first feared and retained most of the Amphibious shipping and the prize at the end for the pain will be a return to CTOL naval air.

 

[1805]

A lot can happen in 9 years.

At the end of the day, the RN will be getting a CTOL carrier with a F35C airwing regardless of the fate of the other ship. Expect closer ties with France announced in November.
And lets be honest here, having GR.9's is playing at naval air and we have been for a good decade since the retirement of the Sea Harrier. Can't think of many airforces i'd fancy putting our pilots up against with those.

It looks like we've retained more of the surface fleet than first feared and retained most of the Amphibious shipping and the prize at the end for the pain will be a return to CTOL naval air.

You're so right a lot can happen in 9 years.....we have been out of the carrier game since the FA2 went, a foolish decision the RN should never have agreed to but drunk on Astutes and T45 programmes it trusted the RAF....how naive can these idots be.

 

[Grand Danois]

I'm having some trouble here wrapping my head around the rumour of a potential catobar solution. Regardless of the possible capex benefits of the latest iteration of catobar vis-a-vis stovl, I have the definite impression that it was the expense of the air wing workup to a catobar conops which was the background for the CVF stovl choice...? Or perhaps it was a sortie generation per plane issue, which is less from a catobar CVF? I.e. a catobar solution is cheaper per plane but not per sortie?

 

[riksavage]

I'm having some trouble here wrapping my head around the rumour of a potential catobar solution. Regardless of the possible capex benefits of the latest iteration of catobar vis-a-vis stovl, I have the definite impression that it was the expense of the air wing workup to a catobar conops which was the background for the CVF stovl choice...? Or perhaps it was a sortie generation per plane issue, which is less from a catobar CVF? I.e. a catobar solution is cheaper per plane but not per sortie?

With the retiring of the Harrier, which will be accompanied by thunderous fist banging about the Argentines invading the Falklands again, I suspect the RAF argued that they will offset the loss of a credible CAS fixed wing fleet air arm by posting additional Typhoons or F3's to Mount Pleasant. At then end of the day reinforcing the Falklands is a damn sight cheaper in blood and treasure than trying to take them back. Losing the islands and handing the Argentines a modern well equipped air base with hard standing for 3-4 full sqns would be disastrous and make the 82 campaign look like a walk in the park by comparison. And lets not kid ourselves the GR9 is NOT a CAP aircraft and would not be taking on enemy fast air.

If the RAF keeps their Tornado fleet, gets 160 Typhoons and also gets to keep the new planned refuelers then they will be smiling. Nimrod I suspect is a dead duck particularly now new concerns over safety are being reported.

Reading between the lines I also think the Navy is becoming more and more nervous about the cost of F35B. By the time PW comes on line EMCAT should be a tried and tested system paving the way for the more capable F35C. Also if the UK ends up with only one carrier it will be much easier to dovetail deployments with the French and cross deck F35C's whilst the PW is in refit. Hopefully QE wil be retained as an oversized OCEAN hosting Wildcat, Merlin, Chinook & Apache if and when required.

We are all Navy fans, but the Army & RAF, plus RUSI were dead against the carriers as prestige projects. Securing the construction of both in very difficult times is a win. If and when the economy improves money can be found to fill them.

I think the recent exchanges undertaken by FAA/RAF pilots to the US to train for carrier operations was a good indicator of things to come. This will now have to be a permanent fixture until F35C arrives.

On the bright side SF will recieve a boost and increse in manning.

 

[MrQuintus]

With the retiring of the Harrier, which will be accompanied by thunderous fist banging about the Argentines invading the Falklands again, I suspect the RAF argued that they will offset the loss of a credible CAS fixed wing fleet air arm by posting additional Typhoons or F3's to Mount Pleasant. At then end of the day reinforcing the Falklands is a damn sight cheaper in blood and treasure than trying to take them back. Losing the islands and handing the Argentines a modern well equipped air base with hard standing for 3-4 full sqns would be disastrous and make the 82 campaign look like a walk in the park by comparison. And lets not kid ourselves the GR9 is NOT a CAP aircraft and would not be taking on enemy fast air.

If the RAF keeps their Tornado fleet, gets 160 Typhoons and also gets to keep the new planned refuelers then they will be smiling. Nimrod I suspect is a dead duck particularly now new concerns over safety are being reported.

Reading between the lines I also think the Navy is becoming more and more nervous about the cost of F35B. By the time PW comes on line EMCAT should be a tried and tested system paving the way for the more capable F35C. Also if the UK ends up with only one carrier it will be much easier to dovetail deployments with the French and cross deck F35C's whilst the PW is in refit. Hopefully QE wil be retained as an oversized OCEAN hosting Wildcat, Merlin, Chinook & Apache if and when required.

We are all Navy fans, but the Army & RAF, plus RUSI were dead against the carriers as prestige projects. Securing the construction of both in very difficult times is a win. If and when the economy improves money can be found to fill them.

I think the recent exchanges undertaken by FAA/RAF pilots to the US to train for carrier operations was a good indicator of things to come. This will now have to be a permanent fixture until F35C arrives.

On the bright side SF will recieve a boost and incresing in manning.

I really don't see how they can bin the nimrod, it's all but paid for, we need an MPA aircraft and biggest of all, David Cameron Bitched and Moaned about the capability gap created by the early retirement of the MR2

 

[Abraham Gubler]

You can forget about the RN ever funding a V-22 AEW&C. They are going to go without a fixed wing carrier force for the next ten years just so they can afford the hulls. The V-22 was considered back in the 90s for AEW&C and Boeing drew up a nice configuration with a triangular, three faced phased array radar above the centre wing box.

However it would appear that the UK is going down the joint carrier path with France. Which would mean since France has E-2s the RN is very unlikely to acquire E-2s as they can cross deck. Since it is most likely the RN will only ever have one fixed wing capable carrier (PoW) and the French only one (CdG) they will probably take it in turns to provide an active carrier group with cross decking of air wings. Which implies to me its likely the French would consider the F-35C in the 2020s to replace the Rafale M.

As to catapults being better or cheaper than STOVL that is total nonsense. Mr Grand Logistics blogger has no idea about the heavy burdens cyclic operations makes on an air wing and that you can’t operate catapult carriers without cyclic operations. STOVL on the other hand allows for casual flight operations. But since the RN will only have a proper carrier air wing at sea one year out of two I guess they will save money in the long term. Via the old fashioned way: massive degradation of capability.

Here’s an interesting comparison. Fleet sizes circa 2020:

RN: 1 Prince of Wales CVA, 6 Daring DDG, 11 Duke FFH
RAN: 2 Canberra LHD, 3 Hobart DDG, 4 Adelaide FFG, 8 Anzac FFH

 

[riksavage]

You can forget about the RN ever funding a V-22 AEW&C. They are going to go without a fixed wing carrier force for the next ten years just so they can afford the hulls. The V-22 was considered back in the 90s for AEW&C and Boeing drew up a nice configuration with a triangular, three faced phased array radar above the centre wing box.

However it would appear that the UK is going down the joint carrier path with France. Which would mean since France has E-2s the RN is very unlikely to acquire E-2s as they can cross deck. Since it is most likely the RN will only ever have one fixed wing capable carrier (PoW) and the French only one (CdG) they will probably take it in turns to provide an active carrier group with cross decking of air wings. Which implies to me its likely the French would consider the F-35C in the 2020s to replace the Rafale M.

As to catapults being better or cheaper than STOVL that is total nonsense. Mr Grand Logistics blogger has no idea about the heavy burdens cyclic operations makes on an air wing and that you can’t operate catapult carriers without cyclic operations. STOVL on the other hand allows for casual flight operations. But since the RN will only have a proper carrier air wing at sea one year out of two I guess they will save money in the long term. Via the old fashioned way: massive degradation of capability.

Here’s an interesting comparison. Fleet sizes circa 2020:

RN: 1 Prince of Wales CVA, 6 Daring DDG, 11 Duke FFH
RAN: 2 Canberra LHD, 3 Hobart DDG, 4 Adelaide FFG, 8 Anzac FFH

You have made the assumption that the Albions and Bays wil go. The only news thus far is the early retirement of Ark. In addition to PW one may also still see two x Albions, and at least 2 x Bays. If the 11 Dukes are fitted with Camm and the they all receive the AsW planned upgrades then let them soldier on. One must assume C3 will be on the cards by then as well. I also note you fail to cover the pitiful state of the Aussie submarine service. How many Astute / T's will be at sea in 2020 vs. what the RAN can/will be able to deploy?

Do the Aussie's plan to buy a rotory AeW&C platform for the Canberra's? If not what will fulfill that function, the Hobarts?

Nimrod was designed to watch for Soviet subs in the North Atlantic. According to RUSI that activity dropped to almost zero in the 90"s and has not recovered to anything near what it was. The project was blighted from day one even though the finished product is probably one of the best MPA's in the world today, it's an easy target for defence critics. The cost savings come from not having to run the things and closing the airbase. The airbase can be re-rolled to host the returning army units from Germany following the super garrison theory, which better supports oversees long term operations in A-Stan.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

You have made the assumption that the Albions and Bays wil go.

No I haven’t even mentioned them. The LHD is capable of fixed wing operations and so on which is why I included it at the top of the list. To include amphibs would also add the RAN’s new sealift and intra theatre capabilities.

I also note you fail to cover the pitiful state of the Aussie submarine service. How many Astute / T's will be at sea in 2020 vs. what the RAN can/will be able to deploy?

Again why should I have? I was just comparing the surface fleet? As to that “pitiful” state that would be four in service and fully upgraded with CCS Mk 2 (far better than any combat system in a RN submarine) and another two undergoing this mid life upgrade. By 2013 all six Collins will be upgraded and by 2020 six will be in service compared to 4-5 Astutes and a Trafalger.

Do the Aussie's plan to buy a rotory AeW&C platform for the Canberra's? If not what will fulfill that function, the Hobarts?

The RAN will operate with a Wedgetail AEW&C overhead providing over the horizon targeting for their SM-6 missiles… Make the Darings and Sea Kings (assuming they are still in service which is unlikely) look rather puny.

This isn’t meant to be chest thumping exercise just an indication as to the decline and fall of the Royal Navy. Its almost en par with the RAN. Who could have thunk that 50 years ago.

 

[riksavage]

Again why should I have? I was just comparing the surface fleet? As to that “pitiful” state that would be four in service and fully upgraded with CCS Mk 2 (far better than any combat system in a RN submarine) and another two undergoing this mid life upgrade. By 2013 all six Collins will be upgraded and by 2020 six will be in service compared to 4-5 Astutes and a Trafalger.

You started the chest thumping.

Your comments on the Collins deployment is ambitious, I was under the impression the RAN was struggling to keep two at sea at any one time due to manning issues. Also ranting on about the Collins Class CCS system makes me laugh when looking at over all capabilities of the two designs - weapons load, advanced sonar system, global reach, SF support capabilities and modern non-hull penetrating surveillance technology fitted to the Astute. Would you rather have seven Astutes or six Collins? I shared an office with a Aussie guy who was part of the investigating team assigned to the Royal Commission which looked into the Collins debacle. Some of the non-clasified information he relayed was simply jaw dropping.

Realistically considering the size of Australia, distance from Allies, total reliance on imports (country makes next to nothing), you should have a Navy twice the size of the RN.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

You started the chest thumping.

LOL. Rik you're a freakin troll. A low down gutter sniping troll. Go home to your bridge and wait for some little girls to pass by, they might be impressed by your behaviour.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Your comments on the Collins deployment is ambitious, I was under the impression the RAN was struggling to keep two at sea at any one time due to manning issues.

There was a problem with generators but was fixed. Not half as bad as when the reactors on all the Trafalgar’s started to glow…

Also ranting on about the Collins Class CCS system makes me laugh when looking at over all capabilities of the two designs - weapons load, advanced sonar system, global reach, SF support capabilities and modern non-hull penetrating surveillance technology fitted to the Astute. Would you rather have seven Astutes or six Collins?

How does that non pentrating persicope help you detect underwater objects in complex environments? The boats are apples and oranges and the Collins is much better for littoral operations.

I shared an office with a Aussie guy who was part of the investigating team assigned to the Royal Commission which looked into the Collins debacle. Some of the non-clasified information he relayed was simply jaw dropping.

That would be the Royal Commission that never existed…

Realistically considering the size of Australia, distance from Allies, total reliance on imports (country makes next to nothing), you should have a Navy twice the size of the RN.

There you are being a dickhead again.

It’s bad enough that you’re a troll but that you’re wrong in every regard makes it even worse. And now please explain to the public just what does all this ranting have to do with the massive cut backs to the Royal Navy? Its not bringing your carrier force back to life or your frigate and submarine force above the numbers possessed by Australia.