The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

AndrewMI

New Member
Most journalists are lazy, its the Admirals that are the idiots
It is never as simple as that...

For example, if you are an Admiral, and an outgoing Labour Government promised you the go-ahead on a new combat ship that has great capability, and will be produced in decent numbers (say 10-12) would you say no?

The same thing applies to Astute, T45, CVF etc. Political times change. The carriers are creatures of 1997/8 whe they would have had significant use.

You have to realise that there is a significant gestation period between the time decisions on policy, implementation and procurement are made, and when they are actually delivered. During this time, political and economic conditions change.

Despite a massive economic crisis - the two carriers may well be operational in 10 years. If there is a misjudgement (and there clearly has been somewhere) it may or may not have been from Admirals, it may be at the MoD, the Government. Who knows. But the result is not as catastrophic as is being made out.
 

jaffo4011

New Member
of course what we need is a good old threat,preferably by sea to sharpen a few minds in the govt....

it worked last time..........without the falklands we would be without carriers already.
 

1805

New Member
It is never as simple as that...

For example, if you are an Admiral, and an outgoing Labour Government promised you the go-ahead on a new combat ship that has great capability, and will be produced in decent numbers (say 10-12) would you say no?

The same thing applies to Astute, T45, CVF etc. Political times change. The carriers are creatures of 1997/8 whe they would have had significant use.

You have to realise that there is a significant gestation period between the time decisions on policy, implementation and procurement are made, and when they are actually delivered. During this time, political and economic conditions change.

Despite a massive economic crisis - the two carriers may well be operational in 10 years. If there is a misjudgement (and there clearly has been somewhere) it may or may not have been from Admirals, it may be at the MoD, the Government. Who knows. But the result is not as catastrophic as is being made out.
The argument about length of development is relevant in some areas, more about numbers of platforms rather than types of ships and certainly not the Carriers. If you want an independent capability then you need carriers.

The Admirals must take some responsibility for ensuring, what they ask for is within the available budget. I don't think they could have done that with Astute, T45 or CVF.

Why do we need a continuous at sea nuclear deterrent when we are prepared to accept a 14 year gap in carrier projection? Let’s face it the likelihood of the POW ever operating fixed wing aircraft is far from certain. The RN needs to go back to basics and see how it can become relevant (useful) to the British people again. It needs to radically look at how is projects power (if it is going to?), and it needs to become the model of efficiency.

There is a real danger that it will become a laughing stock over these carriers, in a similar way Suez made them look weapons of an aggressive imperial power. Incidents like HMS Cornwall and the Chandlers do not help.

They need to think the unthinkable, and come up with solutions.
 

spsun100001

New Member
So now we know......

...whoever it is who puts forward the RAF case needs to be get themselves a job as a defence lawyer. With their spin skills they could get Jack the Ripper aquitted.

Meawhile the poor old RN gets it again.

The good news as I see it:

1) We get one carrier with a proper CTOL capability.
2) We get all 7 Astute SSN's - a truly world class capability second only to the US
3) The reduction of 2 MCM's, while unwelcome, still leaves us with a highly capable MCM force which is a world leader
4) We still get the Wildcat helicopter (I suppose this is good news from a capability point of view even though the helicopter itself is of debatable value for money).

The bad news

1) We only get one carrier. If you think a carrier is a national asset you require then you need two in order to ensure one is always available. I'd hoped we'd see them rotated in and out of service maintaining an ever present capability. As it seems the cost of CTOL conversion is £500m then for the sake of the price of 6 Typhoon's we're going to mothball and dispose of the QE rather than turning her into a second CTOL platform.
2) The CV's will routinely only carry 12 jets. I wonder how helpful the RAF will be at providing more when needed. I think we can guess the answer.
3) We will be without carrier air capability for at least 10 years. Shameful.
4) We lose 4 Type 22 batch 3 frigates. Arguably the most balanced capabiity ships in the RN
5) The Type 26 appears as if it will be less capable than originally planned and therefore we might get a replacement for the Type 23 that can do less then the ships it is replacing.
6) We lose either of Illustrious or Ocean. Along with the disposal of one of the Bay's this reduces our amphibious capability.
7) The loss of the Nimrod reduces our maritime patrol, search and rescue and SSBN protection capability

The 'remains to be clarified' news

1) A reduction in the size of the RFA is hinted at though not explicity detailed.
2) Nothing is said about airborne AEW. One would hope the move to CTOL would enable the E2 to be procured but nothing is said and I'n not hopeful.

The other thing we must do in this new scenario is balance the capabilities of the Type 45. They will have no carriers to escort for 10 years and will have to undertake general tasking since they will constitute 30% of the escort force. They need to be fitted with an SSM urgently so that they can excercise sea control around themselves over other vessels and carry the more capable Merlin helicopter rather than using the Lynx which is done so that it's Sea Skua ASM provies some limited ASM capability.

What a sad day for the Navy. Well and truly mugged by the RAF so that they can perpetuate a low altitude bomber which has little relevance to our defence needs, which proved through the loss of planes in GW1 the folly of the low altutude concept and now that PGM's have rendered low altitude largely irrelevant can't operate effectively at a high altitude to deploy its PGM capability.

Completely short sighted. The Tories prove they have no more clue about defence than Labour and the RAF act in their own interest rather than the nations. Given it was the Tories under Nott who nearly dismanteld the Navy before and the RAF moved Australia to sabotage the RN I guess this should come as no suprise at all.
 

1805

New Member
...whoever it is who puts forward the RAF case needs to be get themselves a job as a defence lawyer. With their spin skills they could get Jack the Ripper aquitted.

Meawhile the poor old RN gets it again.

The good news as I see it:

1) We get one carrier with a proper CTOL capability.
2) We get all 7 Astute SSN's - a truly world class capability second only to the US
3) The reduction of 2 MCM's, while unwelcome, still leaves us with a highly capable MCM force which is a world leader
4) We still get the Wildcat helicopter (I suppose this is good news from a capability point of view even though the helicopter itself is of debatable value for money).

The bad news

1) We only get one carrier. If you think a carrier is a national asset you require then you need two in order to ensure one is always available. I'd hoped we'd see them rotated in and out of service maintaining an ever present capability. As it seems the cost of CTOL conversion is £500m then for the sake of the price of 6 Typhoon's we're going to mothball and dispose of the QE rather than turning her into a second CTOL platform.
2) The CV's will routinely only carry 12 jets. I wonder how helpful the RAF will be at providing more when needed. I think we can guess the answer.
3) We will be without carrier air capability for at least 10 years. Shameful.
4) We lose 4 Type 22 batch 3 frigates. Arguably the most balanced capabiity ships in the RN
5) The Type 26 appears as if it will be less capable than originally planned and therefore we might get a replacement for the Type 23 that can do less then the ships it is replacing.
6) We lose either of Illustrious or Ocean. Along with the disposal of one of the Bay's this reduces our amphibious capability.
7) The loss of the Nimrod reduces our maritime patrol, search and rescue and SSBN protection capability

The 'remains to be clarified' news

1) A reduction in the size of the RFA is hinted at though not explicity detailed.
2) Nothing is said about airborne AEW. One would hope the move to CTOL would enable the E2 to be procured but nothing is said and I'n not hopeful.

The other thing we must do in this new scenario is balance the capabilities of the Type 45. They will have no carriers to escort for 10 years and will have to undertake general tasking since they will constitute 30% of the escort force. They need to be fitted with an SSM urgently so that they can excercise sea control around themselves over other vessels and carry the more capable Merlin helicopter rather than using the Lynx which is done so that it's Sea Skua ASM provies some limited ASM capability.

What a sad day for the Navy. Well and truly mugged by the RAF so that they can perpetuate a low altitude bomber which has little relevance to our defence needs, which proved through the loss of planes in GW1 the folly of the low altutude concept and now that PGM's have rendered low altitude largely irrelevant can't operate effectively at a high altitude to deploy its PGM capability.

Completely short sighted. The Tories prove they have no more clue about defence than Labour and the RAF act in their own interest rather than the nations. Given it was the Tories under Nott who nearly dismanteld the Navy before and the RAF moved Australia to sabotage the RN I guess this should come as no suprise at all.
But when you have a know back stabber like the RAF on the loose, why did the RN expose itself by giving up the FA2. For the RAF its like stealing candy from a baby.

The T26 needs to be abandoned and something much more useful built, like 6 Absalon/T45 combinations, and then for ASW a small cheap effective FS2000 off the shelf design that can maintain a presence around the World and help with exports.

On the plus side the Tornado when it finally dies will have no replacement. The savings of exiting T26 could be used to buy a light attack aircraft for the CVF. If the RN can deliver the savings required and find money to build the capability they may just get away with it. A Goshawk/Hawk 200 (ok need more range) or Sea Gripen.

Could Sea Gripen fly from QE without catapults.
 

WillS

Member
The bad news

1) We only get one carrier.
Well, is that the long term case? Remember that this is a five year review process and by the time of the next one QE will be closer to completion (catobar) PoW will still be being built, we'll be out of our Afghan obligations and the budget deficit might not be as bad as it currently is.

Hopefully (I know!) the end of the Afghan deployment's malign effect on defence planning will encourage politicians to realise that the extra money to catobar carrier 2 isn't that bad a deal. We also might be further into the F35C production run, later units are cheaper.

Those of us interested in power projection (without the RAF pretending they can get overflights for controversial bombing runs) should probably concentrate our efforts on lobbying to influence thinking for the 2015 review. The battle is lost, not the war.

3) We will be without carrier air capability for at least 10 years. Shameful.
4) We lose 4 Type 22 batch 3 frigates. Arguably the most balanced capabiity ships in the RN
I'm not sure it's going to be 10 years, probably more like 7 (2011-2018) there are already rumours flying around that USN F18s will be leased from 2017 to help the RN regenerate skills. I know they're only rumours but the one's we've heard recently about the RN haven't proven to be that inaccurate.

The Type 22s were always going to be first casualties. Shame, but they're expensive to run so off they go.

As for your other points, yes its a shame about the amphib reductions, although I think one of the Bays is already in 'extended readiness' and I suspect that when it's disposed of its place will be taken by one of the Albions (in extended readiness I mean). I have no love for Nimrod although we'll miss the capability.

Reading through the published doc, one things strikes me as a poster child for the incredibly malign impact our current deployment is having, which I haven't seen picked up by many yet. Namely the fate of the Sentinal aircraft. These aircraft were rushed into operation specifically to fill a gap in cover for Afghanistan and are now going to be disposed of as soon as they are no longer needed there (although the doc does also confirm Rivet Joint as the 'new' SigInt asset). This one item says to me that this review is *all* about that current mess and that after we declare victory and scarper in 2015, it's blank sheet time again.

Will.
 

stuuu28

New Member
They did what!

A couple of points.

1: nimord mra4 is cancelled and it's capability to be replaced with existing units, is this the 4 type 22's they are scraping or the search and rescue contract they binned after the election?

2: as mentioned above sentinel r1 to be scraped after afaganistan because the radar in the f35 is really good, but we are buying less of them and later?

Mind you the last lot did it as well selling off the type 23's saying that they didn't need as many because we where getting CEC then cancelling it after the sale?
 
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ASFC

New Member
Any other Brits out there want to have a whinge at me the messenger? .
Yes, 13 Type 23s not 11. I wouldn't call a Type 23 a 'Yard Barge'.....:p:

Anybody who thinks the RAF somehow 'mugged' the RN is in denial. The RN set itself up for the fall when it committed itself to 2 CVF, 12 T45 and F-35B when the finance wasn't in place to pay for it! As 1805 rightly says, the Admirals have something to answer for........
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, 13 Type 23s not 11. I wouldn't call a Type 23 a 'Yard Barge'.....:p:
So do your amazing powers of whinginess allow me to go back in time to BEFORE the SDR was released and know that the media leaks would be off by two Type 23s?
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I've not been able to determine what will happen to the PAAMS test and evaluation rig currently fixed to the barge off France. I'd assumed this would be used for hull number six, yet can't find any confirmation?
I CAN CONFIRM that the Lonbow test barge is currently tied up in Portsmouth Naval base & is being stripped of the relevant parts that are required for HMS Duncan. (Seen it in passing during a brief vist to an RN Ship. The barge has been there since about early Sept).

SA :cool:
 

ASFC

New Member
So do your amazing powers of whinginess allow me to go back in time to BEFORE the SDR was released and know that the media leaks would be off by two Type 23s?
Do you think I would have included a smilie icon if I was being serious??

Of course i'm not expecting you to know that the leaks are wrong!
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...
1) We only get one carrier. If you think a carrier is a national asset you require then you need two in order to ensure one is always available. I'd hoped we'd see them rotated in and out of service maintaining an ever present capability. As it seems the cost of CTOL conversion is £500m then for the sake of the price of 6 Typhoon's we're going to mothball and dispose of the QE rather than turning her into a second CTOL platform.
Not what the SDSR says. Read page 23.

our current plan is to hold one of the two new carriers at extended readiness. That leaves open options to rotate them, to ensure a continuous UK carrier-strike capability; or to re-generate more quickly a two-carrier strike capability. Alternatively, we might sell one of the carriers, relying on cooperation with a close ally to provide continuous carrier-strike capability. The next strategic defence and security review in 2015 will provide an opportunity to review these options
And since QE is being held back in construction to enable catapults to be fitted, it's almost certainly PoW which is going to go straight into 'extended readiness' when completed.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
While I appreciate the effort that has went into these two PDF's, they don't have an easy to digest breakdown of the numbers, etc.

However, from the same site I found this link.

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Defence Policy and Business | Strategic Defence and Security Review published

As a continuation of today's news & as a UK paying taxpayer, who has funded some of the projects that have been 'thrown into the bin by the signature of an egotistical mainiac', I am truely gutted that Nimrod is being canned.

I'm notthat fussed for the company who is/was building them & only has 1 or 2 left to finish of the nine. Nor for the employees of the company, or the RAF staff who have had the rug pulled from under them. I am gutted that we've spent all that money on a world class product that has gone the way of TSR-2 or CVA.

It sickens me that I watched the stipped down shells & wings of 2 them being loaded into an Antonov 225, then watched in disbelief as it eventually lumbered into the sky in 2001.

It pains me that I visited the factory where they were being rebuilt outside Manchester & stood in awe at this yellow ochre Hulk towering above me, tethered to the ground & a generator, being pre-warmed & pre-flighted, prior to its ground runs in 2005.

& It saddens me that I've been on an RN warship in the western approaches, as one flew overhead on a training mission in 2007.

Many will never understand the capability that we'll never have, just because some infantile, Eaton attending wretch thinks that culling this project now will save us any money.

The reality is that we're gonna have to buy American aircraft to replace it, & spend more money training the crews to operate them, putting our Nations future Engineering capability deeper into the Abyss of non-existance, while thrusting us into the Arms of, & reliance on the US & it's 'Global war on everyone else'.

SA

:nutkick
 
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recce.k1

Well-Known Member
After reading/scan-reading the two docs, personally I thought the new UK Coalition Govt appears to have done a comprehensive job in assessing the current state and near-future state of a very wide range of state/non-state security issues that will impact on the UK and its wider global and economic interests.

And is addressing the need for the UK's armed forces (and intelligence and police services) to be better equipped to deal with these various threats by providing a range of resources that offers better mobility, protection, are networked, are more interoperable with its allies and partners, but still retains (albiet in reduced numbers) traditional warfighting capabilities for state-on-state conflict.

Clearly something had to give. Especially post Cold War in the absence of any credible near future major power conflict situation, a previous Labour Govt/MoD aquisition programme appearing to be stuck in a Cold War mentality involving costly and 'fat' equipment (I'm thinking heaps and heaps of Typhoons and F35's, 12x T45's, 2x CVF's versus say 4-5 smaller and versitile types possibly etc). To me the new Govt is balancing the current and future needs and is being more realistic under the current (and near future) economic circumstances.

Eg The SDSR doc:

Pg 16
Globalisation increases the likelihood of conflict involving non-state and failed-state actors. Stateon-state conflict will not disappear, but its character is already changing. Asymmetric tactics such as economic, cyber and proxy actions instead of direct military confrontation will play an increasing part, as both state and non-state adversaries seek an edge over those who overmatch them in conventional military capability. As a result, the differences between state-on-state warfare and irregular conflict are dramatically reducing.
China is not/will not be the same threat as the previous USSR was. Unlike the inward looking and paranoid Soviets (whom were ready to achieve MAD if push came to shove), China is embracing globalisation, trade and technology cooperation. They won't want to risk all this (and the instability of their billion plus population) with a conflict with the major powers including the UK (in fact why would China even want to attack the UK)?

Granted China has their agenda and aren't always playing by the rules and norms of western societies and govts etc. Hence the UK Govt's efforts to bolster against cyber espionage and cyber terrorism, have flexible and deployable armed forces, ISR, ISTAR, etc, is a very good move. Especially if they can help shore up her "interests" in Asia (ie with allied nations etc).

Incidentally my only criticism would be in relation to Part 5 Alliances, there is no mention of the UK's FPDA committments and the need (IMO) for a more visible UK presence in those parts again, to bolster the UK's trade, economic, defence and diplomatic presence with her friendly allied ASEAN nations there (I suppose that simply comes under the broad "Commonwealth" umbrella). Which means the US in particular, is still seen as the security guarantor to alot of ASEAN nations, meaning they are more willing to buy US weaponry and systems (exports). UK needs to step up its presence IMO and for you guys, it ultimately means greater need for UK assets to project power (like the Falklands etc).

Ok this is a Navy thead, I'll get on topic. The Carriers. It's not quite all gloom and doom. Ok, the UK has the CVF's coming but at least there is no plan to immediately axe one or both of them. Anything could happen over the next several years that might cause a rethink on the current plans to only operate one.

Eg Pg 23
This new carrier-strike policy is consistent with the Strategic Defence and Security Review’s overall approach of holding defence capabilities at different levels of readiness appropriate to the strategic context. It makes strategic sense to focus on developing a more effective and appropriate carrier-strike capability to deal with the uncertain evolution in type and scale of potential threats from various states in the next decade and beyond. To provide further insurance against unpredictable changes in that strategic environment, our current plan is to hold one of the two new carriers at extended readiness. That leaves open options to rotate them, to ensure a continuous UK carrier-strike capability; or to re-generate more quickly a two-carrier strike capability. Alternatively, we might sell one of the carriers, relying on cooperation with a close ally to provide continuous carrier-strike capability. The next strategic defence and security review in 2015 will provide an opportunity to review these options as the future strategic environment develops. Retaining this flexibility of choice is at the core of the Government’s adaptable approach.
There, all hope is not lost!

There is mention of the T26 needing to be more affordable and flexible (which leads to exportable). If this can be achieved and manning costs reduced (eg over the T22 and possibly better than the T23) then the future suggests the possibility is there for more T26's than the current 13x T23's. (It is a pity 3x T23's were sold a few years ago and instead possibly the T22's .... as I suspect this Govt would have kept the 16x T23's due to their lower running costs over the T22's).

The RN, with its other strategic assets is still a major player. All is needed is to build upon a future fleet more suited to the current world situation.

Edit: must have took me an hour to type this, I now see Swerve has covered the Carrier situation above.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Untrue. You've included RAN amphibious ships, but not RN.
Uhhh…

As I said BEFORE the LHDs are included because they can carry and operate fixed wing aircraft. I also did not include the full fleet of RAN amphibious ships by 2020 and so on.

I understand things are a bit tender in the UK at the moment. But this kind of harassment over a simple tallied list is going too far. The boors and louts are those that can’t read that simple comparison and ponder the implications of the massive cuts to the RN and instead spark up and take it as some kind of personal assault on their fragile egos.

Does this list make everyone feel better:

RN: 1 Queen Elizabeth CVA, 1 Albion LPD, 6 Daring DDG, 13 Duke FF, 14 FMHPV OPV

RAN: 2 Canberra LHD, 3 Hobart DDG, 4 Adelaide FFG, 8 Anzac FFG, 20 SEA 1180 OPV

It doesn’t look that much better for RN… Especially taking into account the qualitative edge the RAN will have with the destroyer/frigates over the RN.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Uhhh…


RAN: 2 Canberra LHD, 3 Hobart DDG, 4 Adelaide FFG, 8 Anzac FFG, 20 SEA 1180 OPV

It doesn’t look that much better for RN… Especially taking into account the qualitative edge the RAN will have with the destroyer/frigates over the RN.

The RAN is very unlikely to ever operate 3 AWDs and 4 FFGs simulatenously; and certainly by the time any product from SEA 1180 comes along the FFGs will be long gone.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Alright, lets stop this idiotic comparison of the near future RN to the near future RAN right now.
 
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