The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

riksavage

Banned Member
The following link provides a digital version of Navy News, which includes a couple of excellent cut away diagrams of the QE class in great detail. There is also a nice comparison to the old Ark Royal.

Should the RN pursue the EMCAT route then the proposed flat-top design minus ski jump should not require too much redesign. The increased size of the flight deck compared to the old Ark is very noticeable. One thing that looks deceptive is the amount of hanger space below deck, looks quite small due to the amount of bunkerage space eaten up by crew/office/ tech space fore. aft, starboard and port.

I also noted the aft control tower has an emergency conning tower (10), is this a built in redundancy feature in the event the forward control tower is damaged allowing the ship to be controlled from a secondary position?

Navy News
 
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Palnatoke

Banned Member
As for other comments implying that Europe would be better pooling it's Military Industrial base (mainly the shipbuilding aspects), I think that's a complete folly.

Previous 'experiments' have been astronomically expensive, wrapped up in metres of red tape & been overbudget & late.

What makes anyone think it would be any different this time ??

SA
Folly?

As I mentioned the fact is that much larger and more complex public investments are being done in open and fair competition across the entire European common market - to the great advantage of european busnesses (and customers) .
Defense is the last salient, where the rules of the common market doesn't apply.

For the record, I don't suggest a remake of the Horizon project, that died exactly because of non-buisness relevant arguments concerning which politically favoured yards/industries should do what (and we know how bad that went).

I am suggesting that goverments offer the contracts in open competition just like they do with all other large projects like motorways, bridges, hospitals etc.
And nobody in their right mind question the great advantages of this arrangement.

It's folly to belive that the UK with it's limited means can maintain a competiative defense industry by national centric plan economy - it won't work. Europe will loose it's defense industry if we don't get this right; So far we have been content by being number second after the US - will we be contend when we sink further down the list?
 
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riksavage

Banned Member
Because countries can no longer (with the exception of the US) afford expensive proprietary programmes the onus is falling more and more on the private sector to come up with workable solutions. Take a company like BAE, it owns South African, US, Nordic and UK land systems manufacturers, they can, on face value, appear to be supporting local industry, and yet spread the burden of R&D costs across international boundries throughout the group. For example the next US AFV may be branded United Defence and appear 100% US on the outside, but under the skin the drive train could have been developed by a different BAE brand in a different country for a completely different programme under seperate funding.

Russia by buying two French Mistral is circumventing years of expensive design and R&D. Whilst giving French shipyards hard cash in the short-term it will end up with the designs, machine tools and technical ability to make copy-cat vessels, which it can then sell-on at a much cheaper cost.

With the UK Government pushing a COTS approach, the old policy of building ships to meet unique RN specs will have to adapt and become more flexible, what is required to do the job, not what we desire. Lessons learnt through the UOR approach whereby weapons have been bought off the shelf then adapted (additional armour, bowman, and weapons) makes more sense, and saves on development, deployment time and money.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Should the RN pursue the EMCAT route then the proposed flat-top design minus ski jump should not require too much redesign.
One of the advantages of an EMCAT is that it is compatible with a ski-jump. No need to remove the ski-jump, unless the aircraft you wish to launch can't cope with it.

As alternatives to a full-power catapult, one could fit a small EMCAT for launching UAVs, or maybe one to boost ski-jump launched aircraft.

I also noted the aft control tower has an emergency conning tower (10), is this a built in redundancy feature in the event the forward control tower is damaged allowing the ship to be controlled from a secondary position?.
I believe so. Redundancy was stated to be a useful feature of the twin-island design.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
Because countries can no longer (with the exception of the US) afford expensive proprietary programmes the onus is falling more and more on the private sector to come up with workable solutions.
I agree. I add that it's not just that they can't afford it. It's also bad value for money, which given a fixed budget translates into less equipment for the fighting forces.
Though I also add that for the private sector to work, it has to have conditions under which it can thrive.
That is, it has to have a market. And we know from all experience that the bigger the market, the more surpliers, the more customers, the better the market and the better the industry.
It is important to understand, that what ever the volumne of the market, if the market is unhealthy, f.ex. by lack of competition, the companies WILL grow unhealthy (or inefficient).
The case exapmle par exellence is the USSR. Somewhere in Moscow they decided that all russians needed a pair of shoes. So the state set up factories to produce the necessary amount of shoes in the necessary different sizes.
And things worked like clock work. Factory "number 149" produced it's share of the work load. The shoes where delivered in timely fachion to the shops and the Russians bougt their pair of shoes. IT WORKED!
Some Russians might have wished for a different colour than the standard "Black", but they too bought the black ones, because they too needed a pair of shoes.
See, the problem here is not that the girls couldn't get their favorite pink shoe. The problem is that "Factory 149" didn't change, didn't improve it self. Because as long as it produced it's share of shoes,the shoes were bought by customers and everything was good - and why spend ressources on changing a winning team?
Ofcourse when the damn broke, and the system collapsed. "Factory 149" also collapsed, because foreign shoe makers could not only produce shoes in all colours, but they could do it at a fraction of the cost of factory 149, because they had spend the last 50 years on improving their products and means of production, and the reason why they had done that, was because the competition of the free market, a market with many surpliers and many customers had forced them to improve or die.

It doesn't matter whether it's shoes, tanks, cars or ships. The above applies.

If we doesn't give our defense industry a market, that is as good as the markets of foreign competitors, our defense industry will (with certainty) grow (relatively) inefficient.




Take a company like BAE, it owns South African, US, Nordic and UK land systems manufacturers, they can, on face value, appear to be supporting local industry, and yet spread the burden of R&D costs across international boundries throughout the group. For example the next US AFV may be branded United Defence and appear 100% US on the outside, but under the skin the drive train could have been developed by a different BAE brand in a different country for a completely different programme under seperate funding.
And that is good. Though if BAe or parts thereof operate on unhealthy markets the above problems apply (or if BAe somehow stays efficient through it's international presence, the customers on unhealthy markets pay the price as BAe optimizes profits)

Russia by buying two French Mistral is circumventing years of expensive design and R&D. Whilst giving French shipyards hard cash in the short-term it will end up with the designs, machine tools and technical ability to make copy-cat vessels, which it can then sell-on at a much cheaper cost.
If the price was right, this is a win-win situation. One could mistakenly think that Russia holds an advantage over the french by being able to "copy cat" french tech. But from an industrial point of view Russia has (if the price was right) co-financed french R&D efforts. Those engineers and proffesionals will now continue work so that the french can once more provide the better alternative when the Russian Mistrals needs replacement in the future.
Russia gets a better ship than they could produce themself, and they get some skill in building like the better french does.

With the UK Government pushing a COTS approach, the old policy of building ships to meet unique RN specs will have to adapt and become more flexible, what is required to do the job, not what we desire. Lessons learnt through the UOR approach whereby weapons have been bought off the shelf then adapted (additional armour, bowman, and weapons) makes more sense, and saves on development, deployment time and money.
Agree.
 
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Palnatoke

Banned Member
riksavage

Put in another way;

Let's say that You are BAe, and I present you with two buisness oppertunities:

A) In this oppertunity you are sure to win the contracts as long as the customer can't prove that you are profiteering on your dominant position.
Furthermore: "Delivery delays" are "understandable", and "Overbudget" means that the customer pays you more money.

The second buisness oppertunity is
B) In this oppertunity you will only win the contract if your bid is better than 25 other bids by contractors similar to you.
Furthermore: "Delivery delays" means "Fines", and "Overbudget" means "Bankruptcy"

I ask you, in which buisness oppertunity do you think that you will make the hardest effort?
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
...I did wonder if you could help me with a brief explanation or a link to a breakdown/explanation of cost for SAMPSON as opposed to a cheaper less capable set i.e. ARTISAN.
Firstly, stating the obvious here, Artisan is 'less capable' as it does a different job from Sampson. A good analagy would be like comparing a Bugatti Veron & an original 1960's Mini Cooper. Yes they are both cars, have 4 wheels, an engine & can get ya from A to B, but one costs a million quid (well more like 1.2M) & the other can be bought on e-bay for less than £1k. (some would say apples & oranges, i.e. they aren't the same)

That aside, here are some links for info, sourced from t'internet....

House of Commons - Defence - Minutes of Evidence

Navy Matters | Type 45 Section

BAE Systems Extends Royal Navy's Medium Range Radar Capability - BAE Systems

There's plenty of reading in there, & though it may not be an excel spreadsheet with full unit item cost breakdowns, it should give you enough 'food for thought'.

Hope this helps...

SA
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
Firstly, stating the obvious here, Artisan is 'less capable' as it does a different job from Sampson. A good analagy would be like comparing a Bugatti Veron & an original 1960's Mini Cooper. Yes they are both cars, have 4 wheels, an engine & can get ya from A to B, but one costs a million quid (well more like 1.2M) & the other can be bought on e-bay for less than £1k. (some would say apples & oranges, i.e. they aren't the same)

That aside, here are some links for info, sourced from t'internet....

House of Commons - Defence - Minutes of Evidence

Navy Matters | Type 45 Section

BAE Systems Extends Royal Navy's Medium Range Radar Capability - BAE Systems

There's plenty of reading in there, & though it may not be an excel spreadsheet with full unit item cost breakdowns, it should give you enough 'food for thought'.

Hope this helps...

SA
Tkz for some interesting links.


Notice the complete absence of knowledge on Radars on behalf of the guy (I quess a member of parliament) that puts the questions:

(Sir Robert Walmsley) (...) I do not want to make the answer too technical because I do not want to suggest that I am an electronics expert in detail, but SAMPSON is what is called an active radar and EMPAR is what is called a passive phased array radar. I am always searching for explanations for that but if you think about a light switch, you switch on electricity at the door and the light comes on at the ceiling via a light bulb. If you can imagine that the switch at the door removes a shutter from a tube and the light travels all the way down the tube and comes out in the ceiling, you would have the difference between an active one, which is the light bulb with electricity, which is SAMPSON, and the much more complicated piping arrangement to pipe electromagnetic energy up the mast through an extraordinarily complex rotating joint through which you pump cooling water and electromagnetic radiation as well as taking a received signal back. Whereas we are pumping electricity up the mast, it is that type of technology which we believe has a far more secure growth path for the future. But we were of course taking our decision later than the French and the Italians. That is why we prefer SAMPSON, and there are many more reasons.

24. The passive systems do have a inherent strategic pay-off though which active systems do not, do they? They are less vulnerable.
(Sir Robert Walmsley) No. I think I would want to be careful. A passive system normally is a sonar which is just listening, or an electronic warfare system which is just listening. A passive phased array radar still transmits but it is the little radiating elements in the mast, in the aerial, which are passive. They do not turn electricity into electromagnetic radiation. They just pass electromagnetic radiation which is pumped up the mast through a waveguide, so they are passive in that sense. They either let it out or they keep it in.

25. They are not detectable in the same way?
(Sir Robert Walmsley) Oh yes, they are detectable. They are still letting electromagnetic radiation out of the aerial. The active one is switched on by electricity and does all this clever stuff of making the radar signal up at the top of the mast. It is much easier. You just put energy up the mast, electrical energy, not radiation.
I think it's reassuring to know that the guys we intrust the political leadership of our countries has such detailed knowledge of the problems at hand.:eek:hwell
 

1805

New Member
[I think that what we really need here is to somehow have british shipbuilding re-enter prefferably the commercial shipbuilding market or as a second choice, gain access to a wider defense market.

The reaon for that, is that we have to give volumne to the industry, so that the industry by doing healthy buisness can stay modern/competiative etc.

Now, imo, we can might as well give up on trying to compete on the large container/bulk ship market. Certain countries have huge comparative advantages in that. Though in building Complex/Special ships the playing field is more equal. The main problem here is that, that market is probably mature and the germans, dutch and french are strong on that market, so it will probably be difficult to beat them (and make money at the same time). Though as they say: If you can't beat them, you could join them?
A sub segment of this "Special ship market" is warships. They are the most complex ships builded. And clearly we should have a good chance on that market.
BUT as it is, there is frankly not a market. Rather the British, French,spainsh etc, goverment orders warships from their own (some times owned) yards. And it has nothing at all to do with which yard is best, but simply because the national goverment orders from national yards.
And that is no way of maintaining a healthy shipbuilding industry.
There is a small export market, though in the extend that british shipbuilding isn't on the commercial market in any significant degree, it will most likely loose out to f.ex. the germans, Spanish or french who all have yards that operate on the commercial market and in any case the export market won't be enough to sustain british shipbuilding as the export market is..

So if britain wants to maintain a healthy shipbuilding industry, I see two options;
A) A difficult, perhaps impossible, re-intry on the commercial market
B) Create a defense market large enough, for british yards to operate on in open competition with other yards.

In my oppinion the obvious answer to B is a common european defense market. If we can get the americans on the boat, it would be even greater.[/QUOTE]


In general I do agree with the need for a degree of consolidation in the defence industry and in fairness there has been a lot of moves in that direction. The current problems with Governmental finances across Europe are bound to accelerate this trend. However where I would disagree is around warships; the UK should be by far the largest operators and so longer production runs, this with the RN reputation past connections and relationships, should mean we enjoy a competitive advantage in the export market.

There have been private designs exported, but if the home country does not buy the design does this hinder exports?

The question is why have we failed to sell RN designs? When you look at them; T22, T23, T45, Ocean, Albion, Waves (we are obviously not in the SS & FAC markets), they are maybe not exceptional but not bad designs, why have they not attracted orders? Were they expensive, over engineers or just late on the market?

Is the T26 the first real recognition that exports are important?
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
So sad

45. 45. Who will the potential contenders be?
(Sir Robert Walmsley) Three obvious shipyards could do it: Yarrows on the Clyde, and we still hold an undertaking signed by Lord Weinstock that he would keep that yard to construct the first of class of Horizon; the Vickers yard at Barrow-in-Furness, technically and in every other way competent to construct these ships; and Vospers on the south coast who have looked very carefully at the proposed design, who have been involved in the United Kingdom shareholder, who we have taken great care to keep informed of the progress, and who are satisfied that they can so to speak re-live the experience of constructing HMS Gloucester, one of the last Type 42 destroyers which they undertook. They can enlarge their facilities and they could build this ship at Woolston. It is our intention to make sure that they are able to be a credible competitor.

Mr Brazier

46. Could I come in very quickly on that last answer? Correct me if I am wrong. Barrow-in-Furness and Yarrow both now have the same ultimate shareholder, do they not?
(Sir Robert Walmsley) Yes.

47. Could I ask you to expand on your last answer a little? The position we allegedly faced last time and the last major order, and of course certainly if Vosper are still credible will certainly face this time will be of course that if Vosper do not get part of the act we will effectively have a warship building monopoly. Is that not the case?
(Sir Robert Walmsley) Vospers have not constructed a steel-hulled warship for the Royal Navy since I think HMS Gloucester, which is a very long time ago now..
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Why so sad ?

Look back at the politics of the last 12 years.

The govt decided that it wasn't fair that the UK shipbuilding Industry was going down the pan, with 1 manufacturer getting work, while others struggled, then switching manufacturer when the next order came in, moving the problem.

The govt saw an 'ideal' by bringing every one together under the umbrella of the DIS, so that the shipbuilders acted as one group, sharing work.

The downside was 3 fold...

#1. CERTAIN shipbuilders had already went to the wall, due to the previous boom & bust approach, limiting the effectiveness of the DIS.

#2. CERTAIN shipbuilders hadn't built a steel hulled ship, of high Military content in over 15 years. Hadn't built a contract showing profit & hadn't completed a contract without 'playing games' in the bidding process, to undercut competitors, ensuring they won the bid.

#3. CERTAIN shipbuilders didn't see a shipbuilding Industry in the UK as a way to make money & were prepared to sell their shipbuilding assets, to whomever wanted them. US bidders were welcomed !

(I'm not giving names of who did what, but the list includes ALL of the 5 biggest UK shipyards that were operational in 1999 & having worked in all these yards at some point in time over the last 15 years, I do have some understanding of what i'm stating).

So, the govt forces thru the DIS, to help keep an Industrial icon & symbol of national pride going, by detailing how many ships they want to build & how they want it done, ensuring that ALL the shipbuilders involved would get at least a share of the pot & have to work together to get the job done.

The DIS was both a godsend & a curse, by providing a lifeline to the Industry, but flagging up (to their competitors) who was good / bad at the job.

So, we're half way thru 2010, 8 years after all the anouncements about the DIS, & we have still got a UK shipbuilding Industry, that is building state of the art weapons platforms for the 21st century.

I wouldn't call that SAD, I'd call it a miracle !

The good news (if we can call it that), is that the industry will continue to be at the forefront of technology, as long as we get passed the metal bashing mentality & look at the technical ability and how we should continue to grow this by investing in it & it's future.

If we don't start serious development of training opportunities in the form of apprenticeships in 'traditional' trades, we can kiss our countires manufacturing ability goodbye.

If we don't 'protect' the industry by ensuring that ANY UK order for a ship for the Military & it's support structures, is actually built, or at least fitted out in the UK, we can kiss our capability & heritage goodbye.

&, if we don't start exporting our technological advantage, selling 'UK PLC', we won't have the funds to invest in the future of the country, & can kiss any peer 'pulling power' goodbye.

Now, that WOULD be sad !


(rant over)

SA
 

deepsixteen

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Why so sad ?

Look back at the politics of the last 12 years.

The govt decided that it wasn't fair that the UK shipbuilding Industry was going down the pan, with 1 manufacturer getting work, while others struggled, then switching manufacturer when the next order came in, moving the problem.

The govt saw an 'ideal' by bringing every one together under the umbrella of the DIS, so that the shipbuilders acted as one group, sharing work.

The downside was 3 fold...

#1. CERTAIN shipbuilders had already went to the wall, due to the previous boom & bust approach, limiting the effectiveness of the DIS.

#2. CERTAIN shipbuilders hadn't built a steel hulled ship, of high Military content in over 15 years. Hadn't built a contract showing profit & hadn't completed a contract without 'playing games' in the bidding process, to undercut competitors, ensuring they won the bid.

#3. CERTAIN shipbuilders didn't see a shipbuilding Industry in the UK as a way to make money & were prepared to sell their shipbuilding assets, to whomever wanted them. US bidders were welcomed !

(I'm not giving names of who did what, but the list includes ALL of the 5 biggest UK shipyards that were operational in 1999 & having worked in all these yards at some point in time over the last 15 years, I do have some understanding of what i'm stating).

So, the govt forces thru the DIS, to help keep an Industrial icon & symbol of national pride going, by detailing how many ships they want to build & how they want it done, ensuring that ALL the shipbuilders involved would get at least a share of the pot & have to work together to get the job done.

The DIS was both a godsend & a curse, by providing a lifeline to the Industry, but flagging up (to their competitors) who was good / bad at the job.

So, we're half way thru 2010, 8 years after all the anouncements about the DIS, & we have still got a UK shipbuilding Industry, that is building state of the art weapons platforms for the 21st century.

I wouldn't call that SAD, I'd call it a miracle !

The good news (if we can call it that), is that the industry will continue to be at the forefront of technology, as long as we get passed the metal bashing mentality & look at the technical ability and how we should continue to grow this by investing in it & it's future.

If we don't start serious development of training opportunities in the form of apprenticeships in 'traditional' trades, we can kiss our countires manufacturing ability goodbye.

If we don't 'protect' the industry by ensuring that ANY UK order for a ship for the Military & it's support structures, is actually built, or at least fitted out in the UK, we can kiss our capability & heritage goodbye.

&, if we don't start exporting our technological advantage, selling 'UK PLC', we won't have the funds to invest in the future of the country, & can kiss any peer 'pulling power' goodbye.

Now, that WOULD be sad !


(rant over)

SA
Thanks for the links in your earlier post had read all but the minutes LOL.:rotfl

Get your point re apples and oranges but really looking for an idea of physical costs of comparable components have a good understanding re subsurface equipment fits but not surface kit after early eighties.
Fully understand that tech costs but usually in the civil market last years expensive high end is this years cost efficient best value, really looking to understand why SAMPSON remains so expensive that we cannot fit it fleet wide (at least as a single panel set) given development cost is now out of the equation and the potential economies of scale of such a large order. Is it reall a good idea to opt for a second best RADAR fit I would not be happy with a second best SONAR.:(

Would a single array SAMPSON solve some or all of the problems being raised regarding CAAM guidance?

Completely agree with your rant by the way.
:D
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
@Systems Adict

I think it's sad, that the UK got 2+1/2 yard left that can build frigates, and that the 2 are owned by BAe. Don't take my word for it, Sir Robert Walmsley himself underlines the importance of competition and aparently the 1/2 yard (vospers) is the competition to BAe, and that is truly sad.

What you call DIS, I call expensive plan-economic life surport to a strategical industry that has failed due to wrong industrial policies.

From a certain point of view, It's even worse than in the USSR they had the wit to make sure that the goverment owned the industries that the goverment paid for.
In this case the goverment pays to private stockholders. Kinda like the unemployed people who recives a goverment welfare check. Only difference is that classic welfare recipients don't live in expensive neighbourhoods.

If we salute plan economy and perhaps it's necessary when we insists that we have to be able to build our own ships from scratch - regardless of the cost, the goverment should at least secure it self by nationalizing (or controling) the industry in question.
Look at France for inspiration. They have some succes in that.

Though, I suggest that the UK embraces and promotes the free market to create a sustainable and healthy yard industry that can surply the Royal Navy with state of the art ships, on time, on budget and at the right price.
It's not impossible; Germany, France, Holland, Finland and Denmark (though now ending) have all competiative large yards. If they can do it, So can the UK,
 

riksavage

Banned Member
BAE have so much riding on UK long term defense projects they are beholden to the Government and therefore can be put under pressure to produce better deals/results. They are joined at the hip, the recent Cameron visit to India and the Hawk deal is evidence of that.

The UK carrier programme for one has been modelled infinitum to ensure the finished article is on time and on budget. The Astute programme suffered from a number of issues in the design/build stage, not all BAE's fault. Critically design changes were made following the end of the cold war (increased sail design and internal changes) coupled with changes in constriction methodology (horizontal to vertical) all contributed to the delay. The Astute trials programme has gone off without a hitch and it will be handed over to the RN next month as planned now the deep dive, speed trials are over.

I don't have an issue with a single yard, BAE are the only company in the UK with the critical mass to produce Nuclear submarines, fast jets, UCAV's and high-tech warships. They have R&D expertise in land, air and sea systems, which can cross pollinate ideas. Very few countries outside of the US can match their range of capabilities. We all love to knock BAE, but they didn't become the largest defence contractor in 2009 based on stupidity. Their expertise is spreading far and wide exemplified by the following example:

BAE Systems, Inc., a leading U.S. non-nuclear ship repair, modernization, and conversion company, will modernize 11 Arleigh Burke (DDG 51) class guided missile destroyers under a contract with the U.S. Navy with a potential value of $365 million. This work, along with the recent acquisition of Atlantic Marine, reflects BAE Systems' efforts to support new-era requirements of customers for the readiness and sustainment of equipment and systems.

I'm hoping the RN sees sense and fits a low risk version of EMCAT to the first QE class, it can then be used to launch Watchkeeper / Predator without compromising F35B operations.
 
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AndrewMI

New Member
EMCAT seems to me to be a very sensible system to install on the QE's. Aside from allowing a wider variety of aircraft to be flown, could it also not launch F-35's from either a shorter run, or with a very heavy load? That would be very useful.

Could it allow a Hawkeye to be flown - i assume this would still require arrestor wires (or some equivalent) but i am not sure.


IMO - DIS is a godsend, provided the orders come through, are steady and for appropriate numbers.


I hope the mistakes of Astute and T-45 are never repeated, but you can see it happening again. The SDR will provide much food for thought. Esp on the Trident replacement - the Liberals gaining a degree of controll over the treasury could end up being a round about way of blocking the deterrent.

It would be interesting to see if, should they decide that trident has to come out of the MoD budget, if this is then increased to cover the costs....
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
BAE have so much riding on UK long term defense projects they are beholden to the Government and therefore can be put under pressure to produce better deals/results. They are joined at the hip, the recent Cameron visit to India and the Hawk deal is evidence of that.

The UK carrier programme for one has been modelled infinitum to ensure the finished article is on time and on budget. The Astute programme suffered from a number of issues in the design/build stage, not all BAE's fault. Critically design changes were made following the end of the cold war (increased sail design and internal changes) coupled with changes in constriction methodology (horizontal to vertical) all contributed to the delay. The Astute trials programme has gone off without a hitch and it will be handed over to the RN next month as planned now the deep dive, speed trials are over.

I don't have an issue with a single yard, BAE are the only company in the UK with the critical mass to produce Nuclear submarines, fast jets, UCAV's and high-tech warships. They have R&D expertise in land, air and sea systems, which can cross pollinate ideas. Very few countries outside of the US can match their range of capabilities. We all love to knock BAE, but they didn't become the largest defence contractor in 2009 based on stupidity. Their expertise is spreading far and wide exemplified by the following example:

BAE Systems, Inc., a leading U.S. non-nuclear ship repair, modernization, and conversion company, will modernize 11 Arleigh Burke (DDG 51) class guided missile destroyers under a contract with the U.S. Navy with a potential value of $365 million. This work, along with the recent acquisition of Atlantic Marine, reflects BAE Systems' efforts to support new-era requirements of customers for the readiness and sustainment of equipment and systems.

I'm hoping the RN sees sense and fits a low risk version of EMCAT to the first QE class, it can then be used to launch Watchkeeper / Predator without compromising F35B operations.
I don't at all have a problem with BAe, I welcome large european defense companies as a necessity for european independence.

Though I think that people are making some mistakes in attaching nationality to a multinational company. In my book, the parts of BAe operating in Britain is a part of british industry, subject to british law. The Parts of BAe operating in sweden is swedish industry subject to swedish law. etc. That "BAe" is, or is not, good at doing transactions within the different parts of the (international) company is the interest of the owners of BAe and doesn't really concern us.
Just like the operations of Coca Cola in Norway is of little interest to the average american.

Anyway, the singleton relationship between one customer and one surplier is bad. And this is, or should be, the concern of the British goverment and people since this is a question of a strategically important british industry (yards in this case).
Based on huge emperical evidence, we know that, that kind of singleton relationships ALLWAYS ends up in inefficient compaines and bad value for money for the customer (Look at the USSR! there is a reason why they aren't around anylonger).
In theory, it is prudent to dissolve that kind of singleton relationships by the customer buying up the surplier. Because that decreases the amount of economical transactions (which has a cost). That is also true if the customer is a goverment.

In the not so distant future, if you don't wanna buy your next frigates in Asia, but still want to have the most value for money as possible (given such political constraints) You have two options:

A) Nationalize yard industry.
B) Create a market for british yards to operate on, which is healthy.

Add B. The most likely candidate for that market is, imho, the European defense market. So Britain should work for a defense market in which f.ex. a british yard can bid on an Italien contract in fair and equal competition and a german yard can bid on a british contract in fair and equal competition.
And ofcourse there can be no goverment subsidies in such a market (disrespecting the subsidy that consist in european goverments buying on a european market, which probably is more expensive than the world market (read Asia)).

Now people will probably think; "Ohh no, in that arrangement we will loose british yard industry all together because the dutch will out-compete "our" yards and "steal" british contracts (that could have been shuffled down the throat of the rich guys that own BAe)".
I admit that, that is a very likely risc. Though the british goverment could embark on an offensive, but sound, industrial policy aimed at surporting British yard industry.
As an example, consider this; The Lindø yard of Odense, Denmark is (though now it has given up and is closing), to my knowledge, the last privately owned european yard that competed openly on the market for large containerships and didn't recive goverment subsidies.
That is a yard in a country that frankly got no heavy industry, no relevant natural ressources, some of the world's highest wages and highest tax etc. A lot of really bad conditions for heavy industry.
But the goverment had an offensive industrial policy concerning danish yard industry. That's f.ex. why the local public university in Odense is really good at industrial automatisation, the technical university of Denmark got a large and very good institute of ship-technology etc. Publically funded ressearch that, amoung other things, provided the danish yard industry with a world leading expertize in industrial shipbuilding.

Britain could do things like that, though it requires a large healthy market, for the yards to do buisness on. And there is always the risc that "other people" cheat. F.ex. Lindø, the grown juvel of danish shipbuilding, died because (and I do consider this as a fact, though I might be biased) it was in direct competition with the South Korean State, that brands itself "Hyundai" when it builds ships (Same fate befell Krockums of sweden).
Though on the european market "we" have shown that we can combat "cheaters" (and we could also combat the spanish and italien yards that for the moment are cheating (though not as much as the Koreans).
 

swerve

Super Moderator
@Systems Adict

I think it's sad, that the UK got 2+1/2 yard left that can build frigates, and that the 2 are owned by BAe. Don't take my word for it, Sir Robert Walmsley himself underlines the importance of competition and aparently the 1/2 yard (vospers) is the competition to BAe, and that is truly sad.
Vospers & BAe merged their shipbuilding businesses in 2008. Then Vospers sold their share of the merged business to BAe, in early 2009.
 

Sampanviking

Banned Member
I don't know if anyone here read reported comments from defence secretary Fox on the forthcoming Defence Review last weekend? I read it in Peoples Daily based on an Interview given to the Guardian, neither if which I would assume to be on the regular reading list of the majority of active members here.

Britain can no longer afford all-round defense: defense secretary - People's Daily Online

Britain can no longer afford all-round defense: defense secretary

The article touched on a number of areas, but this comment on the Navy is I think most striking

"If I had a criticism of the navy it is that it's been too centered on a high specification end and not had sufficient platform numbers (ships) in a world that requires presence," he said.
I don't think you can read this without thinking of the Carriers and to my ears it just lends weight to the notion of commissioning them to a far lower operational spec than originally intended, until such time as economic conditions allow to upgrade back to that original spec. Personally I wonder if it will simply mean operating a larger version of the Invincible Class without the "Strike" Capability and allowing the money saved (where retained) in Electronics and Aircraft + manning and Running costs to allow more smaller surface combatants instead.
 

1805

New Member
I don't know if anyone here read reported comments from defence secretary Fox on the forthcoming Defence Review last weekend? I read it in Peoples Daily based on an Interview given to the Guardian, neither if which I would assume to be on the regular reading list of the majority of active members here.

Britain can no longer afford all-round defense: defense secretary - People's Daily Online

Britain can no longer afford all-round defense: defense secretary

The article touched on a number of areas, but this comment on the Navy is I think most striking



I don't think you can read this without thinking of the Carriers and to my ears it just lends weight to the notion of commissioning them to a far lower operational spec than originally intended, until such time as economic conditions allow to upgrade back to that original spec. Personally I wonder if it will simply mean operating a larger version of the Invincible Class without the "Strike" Capability and allowing the money saved (where retained) in Electronics and Aircraft + manning and Running costs to allow more smaller surface combatants instead.
A 7000t land attack frigate will really help the numbers game.....but then this has been debated to death here. I would also say there surely is a happy compromise between a 65,000 30knot carrier and an Invincible or even Ocean sized platform. Fox is just stating the obvious, let hope he is more successful at challenging the MOD/RN establishment before they wreck the balance of the fleet.
 
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