Royal New Zealand Air Force

[RegR]

Surely for pure multi role options v cost per unit the CN235 will win out on the day, costs alot less then C27 and has the rear cargo ramp a Q/ATR type does'nt, not sure how much(if even possible) a rear ramp would cost to retrofit but why go through the hassle anyway opposed to one already designed and built with initially.
The commonality with possible future C130J is a bonus and C27 would be a great asset to have but is it really needed. Our closest neighbour operating CN235s is the frenchies on Noumea and they are regular visitors here with them for Skytrain exs and para courses so at least we could have operational experiences with them.
I still beleive the numbers of 3 initially are too small unless maybe the king airs are going to be withdrawn gradually on at least a 1 for 1 basis and not 3 new A/C for 5 kingairs due to the added responsibilities envisaged by govt.

 

[Gibbo]

Surely for pure multi role options v cost per unit the CN235 will win out on the day, costs alot less then C27 and has the rear cargo ramp a Q/ATR type does'nt, not sure how much(if even possible) a rear ramp would cost to retrofit but why go through the hassle anyway opposed to one already designed and built with initially.
The commonality with possible future C130J is a bonus and C27 would be a great asset to have but is it really needed. Our closest neighbour operating CN235s is the frenchies on Noumea and they are regular visitors here with them for Skytrain exs and para courses so at least we could have operational experiences with them.
I still beleive the numbers of 3 initially are too small unless maybe the king airs are going to be withdrawn gradually on at least a 1 for 1 basis and not 3 new A/C for 5 kingairs due to the added responsibilities envisaged by govt.

Yes CN235 would be my pick - better freight capability & likely to be a little more 'rugged' than the Q300 (which is also a personal favourite!). Hopefully longer term we'll see a few more as suggested & eventually see 3 attached to 40Sqn for transport & 2-3 attached to 5 Sqn as short-range SAR/MPA. Surely more efficient to have just 1 each transport & MPA Sqn!?! A 2nd batch being acquired which will depend on how much the CN235 or Q300 will be used - and they'll be used extensively!

I've always adamantly maintained that we won't see the ACF return (& still stand by that!), and I've always said the same about the Macchis. But now I'm starting to think differently about the Macchis.

The 'Flight Intl' article would suggest the 3 x CN235 or Q300 will not be primarily tasked with the advanced training - and now I'm starting to think that maybe the Macchis could return to the advanced training role. Likely to be limited numbers (half serviceable + rest as spares!?!) .

We've heard many comments about Army & Navy realising they're missing the fast jets - although remember Navy used commercial jets even before the ACF was shot down & still do! I'm starting to think the B200 replacement which had progressed quite a way only to be put on hold could mean there's other plans!

I tended myself to forget the Macchis role wasn't just lead-in the the A4's - they also did all the advanced training even for rotary & the 'heavies'!

There's another reason I think there could a surprise in the review such as the Macchis return! That's this 'value for money' review. It always struck me as weird that the defence review was weeks from completion when all of sudden (it seems to me) from left-field comes this 'value for money' review!

I'm starting to think that Mapp may be looking to get the Macchis flying again but to make it publicly palatable, Key & English have told him to find $50M to pump into the 'frontline' to justify the cost of re-activation.

Then again maybe I'm just delirious! :wah

 

[recce.k1]

Also the CN235 has the better range over the Q300 (the Q300 appears as though it would barely make NZ-Fiji without external fuel tanks), which is important for transiting to the Pacific for inshore maritime patrol or cargo/transport duties.

The Q300 would make a comfortable VIP (& SATS) aircraft though, for duties within NZ itself. (Imagine being a VIP inside a CN235 cargo aircraft, must be like travelling in a C130 in the cargo hold etc).

Buy both types for the different roles then.

(Or in an ideal world, better still buy the CN235 for MPA/transport and later when funding allows some small business jets eg Falcon etc, for VIP/STATS, with the range to travel abroad .....and give those reactivated Macchi pilots another reason for being i.e. to transition to)

(I may be wrong but as well as no mention that the Q300/CN235 will be tasked with the advanced training nor it appears is there any mention of VIP tasks ... so something else must be cooking on those fronts - probably not Falcons though)!

 

[MrConservative]

Also the CN235 has the better range over the Q300 (the Q300 appears as though it would barely make NZ-Fiji without external fuel tanks), which is important for transiting to the Pacific for inshore maritime patrol or cargo/transport duties.

The Q300 would make a comfortable VIP (& SATS) aircraft though, for duties within NZ itself. (Imagine being a VIP inside a CN235 cargo aircraft, must be like travelling in a C130 in the cargo hold etc).

Buy both types for the different roles then.

(Or in an ideal world, better still buy the CN235 for MPA/transport and later when funding allows some small business jets eg Falcon etc, for VIP/STATS, with the range to travel abroad .....and give those reactivated Macchi pilots another reason for being i.e. to transition to)

(I may be wrong but as well as no mention that the Q300/CN235 will be tasked with the advanced training nor it appears is there any mention of VIP tasks ... so something else must be cooking on those fronts - probably not Falcons though)!

Everybody is on top form lately!!

It is a real juggling act isn't it gentleman. What roles to be covered by what aircraft.
Taking a look at the roles. This is what I would like to see. Not that it would happen mind you.

But in an ideal world.... mixed with a little bit of nostalgia ....

Domestic VIP for PM and GG. We now have coming a fast, modern and proven helicopter fleet. They can be rapidly changed into VIP mode with a piece of shag pile carpet and a couple of sheepskin seat covers. In the back Good as Gold Kiwi style. Can go basically anywhere. Boosting the numbers to 8 AW-109's and 8 NH-90's should have this occassional role covered. The 8 LUH's could be reformed as 14 Sqd for old times sake.

Pacific and International VIP. Its Air New Zealand I'm afraid for anyone else other than the GG or PM. If their is an emergency well the FM and his his advisors from MFAT will have to rough it on something else if they can't get a flight. When the PM goes on what really is only an annual visit to the Pacific there is usually half a plane load of Sir Humpreys and Press at least so that means the B757's.

Light-Medium Transport. The CN-295M not the 235. Ticks all the boxes. Cheaper than the C-27 by some margin. Three now with three more later. With six C-295M's we could probably need only 4 C-130J-30's. At that stage you could probably take the C-295's out of 40 Sqd and reform it as 2 Sqd.
Short-Medium Range Coastal Patrol. The Q300 with MPS and be the prime multi-engine conversion aircraft. Can be looked after under contract with Air NZ. Basically the RNZAF gas them up and fly them. Can be used for the odd VIP trip to Northland and Southland with a dozen or so seats down the back - but realistically how often does that happen. Again three now and three more later. They go to 42 - Sqd.

Advanced Training / NZDF Training Support. The Macchi upgraded to Batch II. End of story. Upgrade ten to always have at least eight operational.

And of course call it ... you guessed it .... 75 Sqd.

 

[dave_kiwi]

Short-Medium Range Coastal Patrol. The Q300 with MPS and be the prime multi-engine conversion aircraft. Can be looked after under contract with Air NZ. Basically the RNZAF gas them up and fly them. Can be used for the odd VIP trip to Northland and Southland with a dozen or so seats down the back - but realistically how often does that happen. Again three now and three more later. They go to 42 - Sqd.

)

Hmmm this sounds like "didn't we have this before ???" moment, except slightly updated.

When NATTS existed - the 3 X F.27 used to be tasked:

1. Nav Training
2. Domestic SAR / Maritime Patrol / Medivac --> prem babies being a speciality
3. Occasional V.I.P --> into the Pacific

I went on one V.I.P trip as a ground tech -- ticky tour through the South Pacific. Add a couple of drop tanks & ya cooking with gas.

 

[Lucasnz]

Hmmm this sounds like "didn't we have this before ???" moment, except slightly updated.

When NATTS existed - the 3 X F.27 used to be tasked:

1. Nav Training
2. Domestic SAR / Maritime Patrol / Medivac --> prem babies being a speciality
3. Occasional V.I.P --> into the Pacific

I went on one V.I.P trip as a ground tech -- ticky tour through the South Pacific. Add a couple of drop tanks & ya cooking with gas.

I travelled a couple of times on a freindship as a special stats fight domestically. Given the roles the government wants performed in terms of MPA / Cargo I don't think the Q-300 rates. The best option in my view, considering the comments on cost vs range, is the CN235/295. While the C-27 would be a nice fit if NZ were to be the C-130J I think we need to keep the doors open in regards to the A400 or even a herc replacement.

 

[Twickiwi]

Singapore goes with Aermacchi

It seems hopes of a LM T-50 deal with Singapore bringing fast jets to NZ have been dashed, and along with them any hope of a piggyback deal to get NZ F/A-50 capability on the ultra cheap. Source: Singapore chooses Italy's M-346 Trainer Jet - Defense News

Oh well, it was a nice thought. It leaves only the rumours of a reactivation of the mothballed Aermacchi. Uncle Sam might still throw us a bone.

 

[Todjaeger]

It seems hopes of a LM T-50 deal with Singapore bringing fast jets to NZ have been dashed, and along with them any hope of a piggyback deal to get NZ F/A-50 capability on the ultra cheap. Source: Singapore chooses Italy's M-346 Trainer Jet - Defense News

Oh well, it was a nice thought. It leaves only the rumours of a reactivation of the mothballed Aermacchi. Uncle Sam might still throw us a bone.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Having read the article, it is apparently citing industry sources in Seoul, based upon what (rumors) they have heard. No official confirmation from any of the involved parties has been made yet, which means that the sources could have it wrong, or Singapore could change its mind. The article also mentioned that an official announcement could come in the next few weeks, or might not be made until October.

At the point, is seems to be more rumour than fact, though time will tell whether or not it is accurate.

-Cheers

 

[Gibbo]

What a shambles...

Pressure on planes - National - NZ Herald News

Hercules grounding delays trip to meet Pacific leaders - National - NZ Herald News

Aircraft 'reliable' despite three breakdowns - National - NZ Herald News

Embarrasing really - so we pull our weight in the region eh? Hah! nfloorl:

Hopefully the defence review will get serious about resolving this mess.

Why did Labour ever let so many 40 sqn aircraft be under refit at the same time!?! :dunce

 

[MrConservative]

Pressure on planes - National - NZ Herald News

Hercules grounding delays trip to meet Pacific leaders - National - NZ Herald News

Aircraft 'reliable' despite three breakdowns - National - NZ Herald News

Embarrasing really - so we pull our weight in the region eh? Hah! nfloorl:

Hopefully the defence review will get serious about resolving this mess.

Why did Labour ever let so many 40 sqn aircraft be under refit at the same time!?! :dunce

Absolutely!! This is becoming a farce and getting beyond a joke. What confidence can SP nations have in New Zealand and that we can deliver. Dont these bozo's realise that there are emerging powerful nations to the North East with a history of checkbook influence ready to upsurp us and downgrade our influence and contributions in the region.

Lets not bugger around anymore with this. Order 4 not a penny pinching 3 CN-235's now - in fact make them C-295's which offer better utility. Frankly its not going to break the bank. If Key can't get Bill English to agree show him the door.

I'm getting very tired of this. I bet you all are too!

 

[recce.k1]

You can say that again!

But seriously there's some good stuff in there.

Regarding the 2nd link, the Herc breakdown resulting in next week's trip to the Pacific being cancelled has meant the Island leaders have been spared listening to this oddity of a European to them called the Greens foreign affairs and defence spokesperson (and putting up with his renditions of kumbayah my Lord when the kava comes out at night)! (Surely they can substitute with video conference links until a trip can be rescheduled later)?

Regarding the 3rd link, Lieutenant Colonel Todd Hart did a superb job explaining to those reporters with short memories that breakdowns are quite common but there were backup contingencies etc (granted razor thin though due to numbers/upgrade delays .... perhaps those reporters could think a little bit more and ask the pollies why the RNZAF has had its airlift fleet chopped in previous times and why is it taking so long to rectify that)?!

 

[dave_kiwi]

Pressure on planes - National - NZ Herald News

Hercules grounding delays trip to meet Pacific leaders - National - NZ Herald News

Aircraft 'reliable' despite three breakdowns - National - NZ Herald News

Embarrasing really - so we pull our weight in the region eh? Hah! nfloorl:

Hopefully the defence review will get serious about resolving this mess.

Why did Labour ever let so many 40 sqn aircraft be under refit at the same time!?! :dunce

Yeah, well remember the Herks are getting on - and depending which ones got slated for the upgrade, some are older than me, some slightly younger. I will be 45 later this year . Not sure what hours they are doing, but must assume they are getting thrashed somewhat. A trip up to the 'Gan must be a reasonable effort. So i wouldn't be surprised .... though I am surprised by the B757 ... wonder if part of the issue is that they are NOT being used enough ???? (There was an issue with the engines at one stage where there were definite side effects from not being flown enough).
Any way, the much "maligned" Canterbury is pulling her weight which is good to see

 

[Sea Toby]

Does New Zealand have an air force? The answer from defense personnel is "potentially possibly".

That is not the right answer. Nor should it ever be...

I hate to admit this, but if new aircraft to replace Hercules and Orions are not apart of the Defense White Paper, the NZDF should stage a military coup... Maybe such action will AWAKE the New Zealand politicians.

If new Hercules are too expensive, than buy new C-295s. If Orions are too expensive, than buy new C-235s. If you can't keep four prop airplanes in the air, settle for two prop airplanes...

 

[RegR]

I suppose these problems are all solveable, its just dependant on how much effort the governments willing to put in. If they were avonics issues then the upgrade may help alleviate, mechanical issues not so much, structural hmmm maybe. Plug away with a possible short term fix or crack into a definite replacement solution.
Its time for the bean counters to wake up, trying to turn 45 years into 55 just isnt a good idea, bite the bullet and buy new, spend now to save in the long term and save our already slim Air Force notion before the embarresments turn to tragedy.
Even the 757s are starting to feel the hurt, may not be under use but more like the extra taskings that are wearing them down now that they are cargo capable as well.
5 new extended Js are my vote + the short range transports, come on John look under the mattress and come up with the goods.

 

[dadof2]

Does New Zealand have an air force? The answer from defense personnel is "potentially possibly".

That is not the right answer. Nor should it ever be...

I hate to admit this, but if new aircraft to replace Hercules and Orions are not apart of the Defense White Paper, the NZDF should stage a military coup... Maybe such action will AWAKE the New Zealand politicians.

If new Hercules are too expensive, than buy new C-295s. If Orions are too expensive, than buy new C-235s. If you can't keep four prop airplanes in the air, settle for two prop airplanes...

i don't think down sizing is the answer purely to save money.You have to base it on operational requirements and then buy an aircraft to suit those requirements.It's not a big deal that a herc broke down it happens even to new gear but it is crazy not to have a spare.It shows you how under resourced and overworked the exsisting aircraft are.Our governments seem to want to sign up to every treaty going and lift the workload of our forces but it shows we do not have enough equipment or manpower to go around.Our forces are doing excellent work overseas at the request of our trading partners,if our government was to stop that work how long would those trade doors stay open,not very long.Our military is crucial to our economy.Spend the money and get some descent gear C 130J's at minimium.We have been underfunding our forces for a long time now.Nationals history on spending for the armed forces is pretty poor,i hope this changes with the white paper.

 

[MrConservative]

In the last 24 hours I have moved over to support the Kawasaki C-2 as my preferred option for the C-130H replacement. The C-130J is a fine aircraft and would seem to be the prefered choice but!!!

I had the pleasure of seeing a C-2 take off and land at JASDF Base Gifu late yesterday afternoon. It was a very impressive aircraft. It seems to me that we could do with / need something with a bit more capability than a C-130J, but also something that is a bit smaller and cheaper than a C-17. Also something made by a company who knows how to design and build quality systems and has experience in the aerospace sector, a country that is very much on our reciprocal FTA radar and a country that is part of the ASEAN region. Japan and Kawasaki tick the boxes in that regard.

What is interesting is that last year the Japanese Government indicated that they will revise the interpretation of foreign military sales. This was stated by the then DefMin Kitazawa at the unveiling ceremony of the C-2 (C-X) and reported in the Japanese media. This is actuallly to suit the local aerospace and engineering industry, which has to cope with reduced production numbers as the JSDF goes through a period of restraint. It is not just the civilian market but to foreign governments. The C-2 is part of the drive to initially provide for the sale of non lethal / self defence orientated products that can sold to foreigners as it is recoginised that such aircraft are used in Humanitarian support mission or actions under a UN mandate. It does make sense as the Japanese over the last 15 years have become quite flexibile in their interpretation of Art 9. The JMSDF tanker deployment into the Gulf and a comapny group in Timor are examples of this pragmatism. Japan also realises that it needs to widen its tech-engineering sales base and defence equipment fits right into this. They have come to dominate a number of industrial sectors and have been a self imposed second teir player in the military technology business. That could ramp up and ramp quickly.

Of course I do have to announce my bias. I live here, Mrs C is a Nagoya local and a red 1982 Kawasaki GPZ550 was my transport of choice a long time ago. Nevertheless an eventual mix of four C-2's with four C-295's would look good with the 40Sqd insignia on the tail and would give us that extra tasking flexibility we need. One thing I should note is that the C-2 was designed to be able to get in an out of some fairly short and seldom used runways on the various islands throughout the Japanese archipalego. Strips that have beed used by the C-1 and C-130H. These are not unlike some of the strips around other areas of the Pacific where the RNZAF visits. Also by using current OTS parts systems such as the GE CF-6-80 as well as the whole host of things Kawasaki manufactures as a tier 1 suppliers to Boeing and Embraer, the fuselage is essentially the only area where the development cost possibily may be past on to buyers. Thus the C-2 is seemingly very price competitive for the capability it delivers. We could then eventually do away with the B757's when the last of the four C-2's arrive and get a used B737-900 for Government work.

As for affording things. Money is not the issue. The NZ economy is not a basket case unlike many western nations. GDP debt is comparitively low by world standards. Exports are moving ahead strongly. Future finacial prospects and resource advantages put us in the box seat. It is essentially the narrow fiscal mindset when it comes to defence. Very much a third class citizen in that regard.

 

[chrishorne]

Agreed, the C-2 is a fine aircraft. While the C-130J is the most likely to replace the C-130Hs its just seems that mix is wrong with a C-130J - something even a bit bigger would be incredibly useful - ie C-2, A400M or even if they get it into production the An-70. I know all three are unlikely but maybe they will force a bigger (wider and more powerful) C-130 to become available.

Also agree the cn-295 would be more useful than a cn-235 in the longer run. A C-27J would be completely overkill for NZ I think. I'd love to see a cn-235 or cn-295 and A400m mix - think that would actually work quite well for nz. I think I must be one of the few that things nz should have at least one vip plane to ship the PM and other VIPs) around in - ejet 190, 737 or A319. The 757s nice combo aircraft but just don't make a good image, Imagine the PM stepping out of the aircraft at Heathrow, camera zooms backs and shows the VIP aircraft in Black with a silver fern with a WC 2011 logo on it. Something that at least makes it look like NZ is a first world country, image internationally is important.

 

[Sea Toby]

I like the Embraer KC-390 as a C-130 replacement. She won't fly until 2013, but should be available for delivery in 2015 or later...

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD2jgWH75sM[/nomedia]

 

[Sea Toby]

I like the Embraer KC-390. She won't fly until 2013, but should be available for delivery after 2015.

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD2jgWH75sM[/nomedia]

 

[MrConservative]

This is what you should be after Toby.

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq_wjJXQpsE[/nomedia]

Enjoy.

And it is tens of millions cheaper than A-400M and not much more than a C-130J-30.

And it actually flies.