The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Troothsayer

New Member
That was interesting, i'd seen the speech but not the Q&A session available on the video.

At 25.45 he was pretty clear in mentioning the Falklands Islands as being an area where we may have to act alone and included the words 'force projection'
 

AndrewMI

New Member
That was interesting, i'd seen the speech but not the Q&A session available on the video.

At 25.45 he was pretty clear in mentioning the Falklands Islands as being an area where we may have to act alone and included the words 'force projection'
Whilst there is clearly a role for some smaller RN vessels to perform such roles as counter piracy, drugs bust etc there is the need for a reasonable size high end warfighting ability.

Looking at the current and projected fleet, the areas that set us apart from most navies are the SSN's, and Large Aircraft Carriers.

These must be protected. SSN's are the modern day equivalent of a battleship and remain in my opinion one of the most useful and deadly pieces of kit available. In the future these will only continue to become more and more useful in an era where it is hard for even a single surface ship to evade satelite tracking. 7 is to few but i suspect it is the most we can hope for. 10 would be the ideal number.

The Carriers will prove to be a useful asset, provided they are equipped properly (F-35, MASC etc) and protected properly. We have already made errors in the T-45 programme, which have led to only 6 produced. Half the number previously wanted and two fewer than the admirals stated were a minimum number required. The ships themselves have seen cut backs, losing the anti-ship missile, and deep strike land attack missile originaly intended and having fewer VLS silos than wanted. CEC is not on them either, and although they will be upgraded in the future, it has been an embarassing programme. I suspect it will not be long before ABM is needed on these ships.

These mistakes can not be made on the T-26, which will be a high end warship with top level anti-sub capability, high end anti-ship capability andhopefully a deep strike capability with TacTom (or equivalent). Hopefully lessons will be learned from Astute and T-45 and the 12 promised will be delivered.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
One shouldn't read too much into some UK pilots flying hornets from a US carrier. Various NATO countries do this. For example the Luftwaffe has a couple of carrier qualified pilots who flew hornets but there is no intention of Germany aquiring a carrier.

So UK pilots flying hornets might very well be plain normal and just looks suspicious because of the new carriers.
 

1805

New Member
One shouldn't read too much into some UK pilots flying hornets from a US carrier. Various NATO countries do this. For example the Luftwaffe has a couple of carrier qualified pilots who flew hornets but there is no intention of Germany aquiring a carrier.

So UK pilots flying hornets might very well be plain normal and just looks suspicious because of the new carriers.
Yes, and I would think most of these pilots will have retired from fast jet service by the time F35s arrive in the RN
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, and I would think most of these pilots will have retired from fast jet service by the time F35s arrive in the RN
not for the test craft which are arrive in a year or so for the first three, It also depends on the age of the crew so they would still have the experiences when the QE is commissioned and F35 squadrons are raised
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
The UK/US are increasing joint carrier activity, the current deployment will see both USMC and UK Harrier assets working together.
Yup

With a quantum leap in size and capacity the QE's will offer an increased tempo of operations never witnessed before in UK maritime aviation, subsequently the UK needs to go through a steep learning curve.
I'd argue that it is an operational temp above that currently existing, but not higher then its ever been before. I'd say the argue was higher then it will be with QE back in the 1940's through to 1960's.

Also as yet it is not 100% confirmed that the F35B's will be purchased, sending fixed wing pilots to fly Hornets could be part of a RN default back-up plan, should cost blowouts make the F35B purchase simply unattainable, then let's go for CATOBAR Hornet and get our pilots training on cat and traps??
I'm fairly sure i've seen it stated on other forums that the LRIP F-35's are coming in massively under budget, I see no reason why that wouldn't follow through to the F-35B's.
 

1805

New Member
One of the 'racing certainties' to emerge from the forthcoming SDR is that the MOD's vast army of civil servants is due for a pretty severe cutback . Now this is widely seen as inevitable and long overdue you could well say but many of these people (contrary to popular opinion) are actually playing some kind of valuable role in our national defence .

In the future in may become much harder than it already is to conceptualize , design and manufacture the increasingly complex weapon systems needed for tomorrows navy . Private industry can (and must increasing do more) to fill the gap but if you lose 50 research scientist posts for instance the immediate effects might not be very noticeable , but in the longer term there will be a price to pay - there always is .

It is difficult to know what value all these civilian, supplier and military personnel are adding to the procurement process, but it does look like it is merely slowing the whole thing down and adding cost. FRES, FSC & T45 all seem to be examples where "less would have been more"

Much of the UK's post WWII military/industrial effort can be seen as a continuous struggle between the competing desires to maintain an adequate defence , provide the services with modern British made equipment , and the ever present requirement to live within our means .

This SDR may mark a decisive turn in this struggle when it becomes perfectly obvious to all that no longer can the MOD/RN afford (or even maintain the capacity to design) the bespoke destroyer , frigate and submarine types specifically made for its needs alone with very little view to their commercial exportability . Initiating major UK only equipment programmes such as the horrendously expensive Spearfish torpedo or Nimrod MRA 4 aircraft will become consigned to history .

There has been a lack of focus on areas we can excel at, and when we have we have often abandoned the next phase to move to a completely new area. There also seems to be a distain withing the military/civil infastructure to consider commerical designs which might be exportable (Before Thatcher got to them the Foreign Office had the same view).

The record shows that 14 Type 42's were replaced by 6 Type 45's , at this rate the 'Darings' will one day be superseded by two or three mega expensive ships at best - ships so few in number and costly that they could hardly be put 'in harms way' where a real warship needs to be in wartime .Looking at the 7000 tonne Type 26 design I have to ask myself is this ship an escort or will it need escorting ? We just can't afford to carry on like this .

The RN is at best a medium sized navy now - it's about time it started to act like one .
What disapoints me is the RN is punching below its weight, we probably have the largest naval budget outside the US and yet in a number of areas we see smaller navies matching or exceeding the RN (T45 v F100).

We need to focus on designing what we can be: best in class AND build in sufficient number (RN orders and exports). Gas turbines are a good example of this. If we can't do both we should sit back and let others enjoy being at the "bleeding edge" of technological development. We can then use our buying power to buy "best of breed" equipment at the best value. Japan and Australia are good examples, we can still insist on some local manufacture assembly.
 

1805

New Member
AndrewMI said: SSN's are the modern day equivalent of a battleship and remain in my opinion one of the most useful and deadly pieces of kit available. In the future these will only continue to become more and more useful in an era where it is hard for even a single surface ship to evade satelite tracking. 7 is to few but i suspect it is the most we can hope for. 10 would be the ideal number.

I guess they are the modern equivalent to a battleship; very expensive and virtually defenceless against air attack.
 

Troothsayer

New Member
There is an interesting article in the Evening Standard yesterday:

Military chiefs told to cut more deeply | News

If true each service has been asked to cut one major capability and the RAF offered up Nimrod, The RN should have suggested the RAF!
Rubbish article. That's the same guy who was at the Q&A with Fox and nothing of the sort has been said. Sounds like a journos artistic license to me.

Can hardly see the RN offering up amphibious capability.
 

Moonstone

New Member
Here are a few thoughts :

> the 2-tier surface combatant idea : as I have written previously, I fear this whole idea is a trap politicians are organizing to replace FFGs with OPVs. To be clear, I have nothing against building and using OPVs or corvettes for easy patrol tasks, but if that means ending up with 8 FFGs in the 2020s instead of today's 16, then the operational effectiveness of the British Navy as a worldwide fighting force is compromised. Besides, the RN had patrol assets such as the Peacocks sold to Ireland and the Philippines. OPVs should replace that type of ship, not a FFG !!

> the FREMM : of course in order to preserve British shipbuilding and defence industries the UK will never order FREMMs... but if we leave aside the economics one second, the RN could get big FFGs with serious AAW (remember FREMM can launch the same Aster 30 as T45 with the EMPAR radar) and even cruise missile capability (Scalp naval which is a modified Storm Shadow after all...) for 150 million pounds per ship. Oh, and the RN could get them around 2014 instead of 2025 :rolleyes:

cheers
Good post . :)

The FREMM's look to be fine ships and ordering an existing design would surely save the UK much time and a small fortune . My only reservation about them is that in my view (but not the MOD's apparently) at 6000 tonnes they look to be right at the very edge of what is an acceptable displacement for an escort . If I were designing a Type 22 & 23 replacement for the RN something more along the lines of the Dutch 'M class' (Karl Doorman) design might be a better starting point .

Comparing these two designs the cost of adding a nice-to-have area defence capability to the FREMM's (Aster/SYLVER) seems to be an almost doubling of the displacement compared to the M class . While steel may be relatively cheap I'm not entirely convinced that's a price worth paying for the RN - especially when our needs are for a ASW orientated ship .
 

1805

New Member
Good post . :)

The FREMM's look to be fine ships and ordering an existing design would surely save the UK much time and a small fortune . My only reservation about them is that in my view (but not the MOD's apparently) at 6000 tonnes they look to be right at the very edge of what is an acceptable displacement for an escort . If I were designing a Type 22 & 23 replacement for the RN something more along the lines of the Dutch 'M class' (Karl Doorman) design might be a better starting point .

Comparing these two designs the cost of adding a nice-to-have area defence capability to the FREMM's (Aster/SYLVER) seems to be an almost doubling of the displacement compared to the M class . While steel may be relatively cheap I'm not entirely convinced that's a price worth paying for the RN - especially when our needs are for a ASW orientated ship .
You're walking into a minefield suggesting the T23 could possibly be replaced with anything smaller than 6,000t in this thread! Of course you are right, there is much more chance of getting meaningful numbers with a ship like the M Class or as I have suggested BAE F2000 design, fitted to an updated standard of KD Lekiu. OK no 4.5" but the 57mm & Sea Wolf (replaced by CAMM) would be superior air defence capability than a T23 with just Sea Wolf, also only a Lynx but most T23 only carry a Lynx anyway.
 

Moonstone

New Member
You're walking into a minefield suggesting the T23 could possibly be replaced with anything smaller than 6,000t in this thread! Of course you are right, there is much more chance of getting meaningful numbers with a ship like the M Class or as I have suggested BAE F2000 design, fitted to an updated standard of KD Lekiu. OK no 4.5" but the 57mm & Sea Wolf (replaced by CAMM) would be superior air defence capability than a T23 with just Sea Wolf, also only a Lynx but most T23 only carry a Lynx anyway.
The BAE F2000 design (or something like it) would undoubtedly prove to be a very useful vessel for he RN - as recognized in the original FSC concept and in the order of battle of most other equivalent navy's . A small flotilla of 4 or 5 for instance could efficiently fulfill a number of roles currently covered by overly capable Frigates & Destroyers or the virtually unarmed (useless in a serious conflict) 'River' class OPV's . Ultimately however something a tad larger (more a small frigate rather than a large corvette) would be preferable for escorting a CV task force .

I can kind of see why the TYPE 45's ended up as such a substantial ship but building 7000t Type 23 replacements looks like a serious policy mistake to me . For any given budget it must be true that more 3500t frigates could be afforded than some 7000t alternative - the number of sonar platforms available could prove to be vital in some future ASW operation . The very notion of prosecuting a small diesel/electric submarine with some vast cruiser sized ship seems to me bordering of the absurd - even if it were affordable in the first place .

From first principles what are the basic requirements for an efficient ASW ship design ?

1 - The means to locate and track a submerged target - (TA & hull sonar)
2 - A means to attack the above (Lynx Wildcat / UCAV)
3 - A strong , seaworthy hull design
4 - Propulsion system that provides for long range , quiet operation & 25kts (Diesel-electric ?)
5 - Adequate defensive armament (I like your CAAM+BAE 57mm gun idea - shore bombardment is the work of a monitor)

Back in the 80's we managed to get most of the above onto the 3.500t (standard) Type 23 design . With all the benefits of today's technology I can't see any good reason why we shouldn't be able to do something broadly similar again .
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
The problem with that is that you are thinking that the primary role of the Type 26 will be ASW, it wont be, it will be one of its main roles, but not necessarily the primary role. You are thinking single role, think multi role.

And with the complexity of modern warships, decreasing the size of the ship while maintaining the same sensor suite would only give a minimal saving at the cost of decreased ability to upgrade the ships once it reaches the midlife of its commissioned service.
 

Moonstone

New Member
The problem with that is that you are thinking that the primary role of the Type 26 will be ASW, it wont be, it will be one of its main roles, but not necessarily the primary role. You are thinking single role, think multi role.

And with the complexity of modern warships, decreasing the size of the ship while maintaining the same sensor suite would only give a minimal saving at the cost of decreased ability to upgrade the ships once it reaches the midlife of its commissioned service.
I've nothing against multi role warships , thIis is the best of all possible worlds . The formidable surface fleet the USN has built around large numbers of genuinely muti role DDG51 'Burke' class destroyers is the envy of the world - but that's not how the post war RN has traditionally done things & even the US DOD is starting to question now the remorseless increase in warship size , cost & complexity . You could argue that the true multi role warships in the future RN will be its two QE class carriers - assuming they both survive the SDR that is . Why would you need a 7000t frigate armed with 8 cruise missiles when you've (hopefully) got a large carrier air group armed with state of the art F35's that could launch many times that number and then (unlike a Frigate) repeat the exercise ?

Yes the larger hulls the RN now obviously prefers are much more suitable for mid-life updates , but it's very much an open question whether the funding will ever be available for these costly rearming programmes .The recent record shows that even comparatively large Type 22 Frigates have in practice had precious little rearming done to them during their service lives , indeed I wouldn't be surprised if funding constraints meant that the Type 45's for instance never actually receive the TacToms , extra SYLVER & 155mm guns their designers would undoubtedly wish for . The cash sunk into a considerable warship hull at its conception not only limits the number we can afford to order , it may well also restrict the funding available down the line at its mid life point .

I suspect that the RN fears that as the treasury will only ever approve a force structure of around 20 or so destroyers & frigates they might as well make them as large and capable as humanly possible - like the mythical Irishman being asked for directions " well I wouldn't start from here " !
 

1805

New Member
The BAE F2000 design (or something like it) would undoubtedly prove to be a very useful vessel for he RN - as recognized in the original FSC concept and in the order of battle of most other equivalent navy's . A small flotilla of 4 or 5 for instance could efficiently fulfill a number of roles currently covered by overly capable Frigates & Destroyers or the virtually unarmed (useless in a serious conflict) 'River' class OPV's . Ultimately however something a tad larger (more a small frigate rather than a large corvette) would be preferable for escorting a CV task force .

I can kind of see why the TYPE 45's ended up as such a substantial ship but building 7000t Type 23 replacements looks like a serious policy mistake to me . For any given budget it must be true that more 3500t frigates could be afforded than some 7000t alternative - the number of sonar platforms available could prove to be vital in some future ASW operation . The very notion of prosecuting a small diesel/electric submarine with some vast cruiser sized ship seems to me bordering of the absurd - even if it were affordable in the first place .

From first principles what are the basic requirements for an efficient ASW ship design ?

1 - The means to locate and track a submerged target - (TA & hull sonar)
2 - A means to attack the above (Lynx Wildcat / UCAV)
3 - A strong , seaworthy hull design
4 - Propulsion system that provides for long range , quiet operation & 25kts (Diesel-electric ?)
5 - Adequate defensive armament (I like your CAAM+BAE 57mm gun idea - shore bombardment is the work of a monitor)

Back in the 80's we managed to get most of the above onto the 3.500t (standard) Type 23 design . With all the benefits of today's technology I can't see any good reason why we shouldn't be able to do something broadly similar again .
Yes again I completely agree, in peacetime the majority of activity is constabulary work. It is very important we maintain our presence around the globe and ensuring the seas are safe; this requires numbers. 12 T26 and let’s be realistic here the cost will rise as budgets get cut, will reduce to 10-8 (total escort force with T45 of 14-16 hardly adequate).

If the politicians let them carry on with the T26, we will have the same situation we had with the T22. Suddenly there will be no money and they will halt the programme half way through and build a T23 equivalent. If they had built T23 originally we would have hand much greater numbers at lower cost.

The effectiveness of a modern ship is its electronics; new cheaply built ships with updated electronics are better than expensively built old ships we can’t afford to refit.

Carrying cruise missiles & 4.5" guns are "nice to haves", dealing with the proliferation of high quality conventional subs with AIP is a must have.
 
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Hambo

New Member
I've nothing against multi role warships , thIis is the best of all possible worlds . The formidable surface fleet the USN has built around large numbers of genuinely muti role DDG51 'Burke' class destroyers is the envy of the world - but that's not how the post war RN has traditionally done things & even the US DOD is starting to question now the remorseless increase in warship size , cost & complexity . You could argue that the true multi role warships in the future RN will be its two QE class carriers - assuming they both survive the SDR that is . Why would you need a 7000t frigate armed with 8 cruise missiles when you've (hopefully) got a large carrier air group armed with state of the art F35's that could launch many times that number and then (unlike a Frigate) repeat the exercise ?

Yes the larger hulls the RN now obviously prefers are much more suitable for mid-life updates , but it's very much an open question whether the funding will ever be available for these costly rearming programmes .The recent record shows that even comparatively large Type 22 Frigates have in practice had precious little rearming done to them during their service lives , indeed I wouldn't be surprised if funding constraints meant that the Type 45's for instance never actually receive the TacToms , extra SYLVER & 155mm guns their designers would undoubtedly wish for . The cash sunk into a considerable warship hull at its conception not only limits the number we can afford to order , it may well also restrict the funding available down the line at its mid life point .

I suspect that the RN fears that as the treasury will only ever approve a force structure of around 20 or so destroyers & frigates they might as well make them as large and capable as humanly possible - like the mythical Irishman being asked for directions " well I wouldn't start from here " !
I think you are over emphasising the difference in size between the Type 23 and Type 26 as some example of Govt wastage, whereas I would suggest its just a reflection of necessity in design mission.

Take an excellent ASW vessel in the Type 23, fully loaded its close to 5000 tonnes and 133m. The Type 26 is only supposed to be 141m, not a lot bigger.
If its sensible to be able to operate a bigger helo and/or a UCAV then you do need a wider hanger, hence a beamier hull, hence a greater displacement. Then add a mission bay which might be cost effective long term, equals a certain shapd hull form at the rear.
The Type 23 has a pretty bespoke VLS, relatively short. It is sensible to design the Type 26 with the ability to carrier a bigger sized VLS, that alone is a big factor in the hull shape, hence displacement, most modern ships that carry VLS are big for that reason.eg F100 equals 5800 tonnes.
Then the propulsion system, that used on the Type 45 uses up a large aount of internal hull volume, not sure what the Type 26 will have .

The upper works look pretty sleek and stealthy, so more spaces/ work areas are probably located in the hull itself, sensible if its aimed at survivability. Again it means more volume in the hull.

Add the probability that the world may one day be vying for polar oil sources and you need a big ship able to take the punishment of those sea conditions, and there the bigger and stable the better.

If we are to spend a vast some on a new class, I would prefer it to be upgradeable, lets do a hypothetical, imagine the cash was there in the T23 design phase and they had squeezed another 1000tonnes on it and added a extra 32 cell Mk41 VLS, that would have opened up a whole range of options and weapons systems, so bigger in the long run would have been better? We might have flogged a Type 23 to some other navies maybe able to handle Standard etc.
 

1805

New Member
I think you are over emphasising the difference in size between the Type 23 and Type 26 as some example of Govt wastage, whereas I would suggest its just a reflection of necessity in design mission.

Take an excellent ASW vessel in the Type 23, fully loaded its close to 5000 tonnes and 133m. The Type 26 is only supposed to be 141m, not a lot bigger.
If its sensible to be able to operate a bigger helo and/or a UCAV then you do need a wider hanger, hence a beamier hull, hence a greater displacement. Then add a mission bay which might be cost effective long term, equals a certain shapd hull form at the rear.
The Type 23 has a pretty bespoke VLS, relatively short. It is sensible to design the Type 26 with the ability to carrier a bigger sized VLS, that alone is a big factor in the hull shape, hence displacement, most modern ships that carry VLS are big for that reason.eg F100 equals 5800 tonnes.
Then the propulsion system, that used on the Type 45 uses up a large aount of internal hull volume, not sure what the Type 26 will have .

The upper works look pretty sleek and stealthy, so more spaces/ work areas are probably located in the hull itself, sensible if its aimed at survivability. Again it means more volume in the hull.

Add the probability that the world may one day be vying for polar oil sources and you need a big ship able to take the punishment of those sea conditions, and there the bigger and stable the better.

If we are to spend a vast some on a new class, I would prefer it to be upgradeable, lets do a hypothetical, imagine the cash was there in the T23 design phase and they had squeezed another 1000tonnes on it and added a extra 32 cell Mk41 VLS, that would have opened up a whole range of options and weapons systems, so bigger in the long run would have been better? We might have flogged a Type 23 to some other navies maybe able to handle Standard etc.
Sometimes you almost sound convincing but not today...I love the one about Polar exploration! The ANZACs are 3,600t and have Mk 41 VLS and there are plenty of other ships. Hopefully CAMM can be quad packed into a stand launcher, if not we will again have limited export potential and the Admiral who approved the design needs to be shot to encourage the others.
 
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Hambo

New Member
Sometimes you almost sound convincing but not today...I love the one about Polar exploration! The ANZACs are 3,600t and have Mk 41 VLS and there are plenty of other ships. Hopefully CAMM can be quad packed into a stand launcher, if not we will again have limited export potential and the Admiral who approved the design needs to be shot to encourage the others.
Ummm, Oil hungry world, diminishing resources, polar regions potentially packed with oil and natural gas. Upcoming military and industrial nations all wanting a share of the pot.
Did I imagine that countries including the UK have been laying claim to vast swathes of the antartic territories? Did I imagine the recent rumpus surrounding oil exploration off the falklands. Does the RN have a role in protecting future UK energy needs? Can the RN rule out having to fight in those harsh regions?

1805, I have after much thought decided that I realy cant be arsed responding to you any more, I will continue to chuckle at your posts, but do me a favour, and I will return the favour. Lets not bother replying anymore, I think you are an idiot. Farewell.
 
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